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Fuchs
What's your opinion on Corporate Enclaves? I haven't gone through the whole book yet, but the P2.0 stuff in Los Angeles seemed a bit over the top to me, "reality trid meets youtube and facebook"-shadowrunning. I run a rather "action-movie" based campaign, but even there I can't see how this "show running" might fit in.
Homme-qui-rigole
Yeah, that's what happens when writers lacks of imagination.
Kyoto Kid
...haven't got it yet but I always thought that LA was pretty superficial anyway. Catch a Lakers game on the telly, sometimes it seems more like your watching the "red carpet" report at the Academy Awards than a basketball match.

(...maybe there was another writers strike grinbig.gif )
Synner
The type of high-profile, "live coverage" PitoRunning as described in the Los Angeles chapter of Corporate Enclaves isn't for everyone, nor is it meant to be.

Runners that opt for this route create "stage personas" (with Altskin, nanopaste, or traditional desguises) for the camera and must take extra precautions, have screened pay-per-view subscribers, or a combination of both. Live feeds are potentially more dangerous and risky but get higher audiences, alternatively the team's rigger/hacker/media expert can tape, edit, and publish to his Pito account at a later date. On the plus side - and as long as their employers remain anonymous - they stand to make a bundle on the broadcasts on top of what they make for the run itself.

Regarding P2.0 itself, it is the logical extension and amalgam of social networking, web-publishing, self-broadcasting, and reality TV in a wireless world - though in this case its very nature makes it an insidious tool of the megacorporation that developed it (after all that Centrality rating is as important as the others).
Malicant
Pito as lack of imagination? Nice. I'd say those who lack the imagination that this is not meant as something everyone and his dog uses has a lack of... imagination.

Nice idea btw. Totally fits with LAs rich-and-better-than-you attitude smile.gif
Fuchs
I am not talking about having my group go the P2.0 route - I am talking about the whole "show running" concept as part of the campaign world (referred to in the news, and such). It just seems to run counter to the "black ops" style. Laundering the money made would also be costly, or so I assume, and even with stage personas, tracking runners seems easier as well. LoneStar would probably have a field day with such evidence delivered by the criminals themselves, and often their locations as well.

The main point I ponder is: If LA-based Runners can do that, why do corps and the public act differently in other locations? Money talks, fads spread.

I am currently leaning more toward the reality TV or combat sports/cop TV angle for the live/almost live feeds, and some market for recordings of runs, heavily edited, but live coverage of actual illegal shadowruns seems a tad too much for my campaign. Essentially the same concepts, just a bit toned down.

(Of course, some might now say I am not playing Shadowrun anymore, for changing such stuff.)
Dashifen
QUOTE (Fuchs)
[...] LoneStar would probably have a field day with such evidence delivered by the criminals themselves, and often their locations as well.

Unless LoneStar's on the take devil.gif
Fuchs
Hard to get a new city contract if the citizens watch daily how criminals run around scott-free, especially with competitiors (Knight Errant etc.) willing to use such "evidence of ineptness" to get the contract themselves.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Synner)
(with Altskin, nanopaste, or traditional desguises)

BTW - why is there Altskin at all if there was Nanopaste?
With Nanopaste, you could already disguise yourself and fake a whole Body, including Fingerprints. (It has texture and a rating, after all)
Augmention providing 'upgrade' options to Nanopaste would have been possible... why re-inventing the wheel?

On the topic of Runner-Shows - really old school. That idea dates back to Strange Days (movie), ShadowBeat (SR1) and stuff.
Demonseed Elite
Yeah, running for the media isn't new to Corp Enclaves. Like Rotbart mentions, it goes back to Shadowbeat in 1st edition.
Kyoto Kid
...ahhh but it's ratings...baby, ratings...

And we all know advertisers love good ratings - P2.0, Brought to you by the friendly folks at Knight Errant...

...damn, beginning to sound like Mojo-- (whooops wrong gaming universe). grinbig.gif
JBlades
I wonder how many people who read that section know what "pito" means in azzie slang? rotfl.gif
Synner
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Dec 11 2007, 05:40 PM)
QUOTE (Synner)
(with Altskin, nanopaste, or traditional desguises)

BTW - why is there Altskin at all if there was Nanopaste?
With Nanopaste, you could already disguise yourself and fake a whole Body, including Fingerprints. (It has texture and a rating, after all)

As described in Augmentation, altskin is simply a more sophisticated development of the same basic technology as nanopaste desguises. Basic altskin allows a number of functionalities not available to basic nanopaste desguises enabled by the more sophisticated nanites used which allow it to be dynamically configured and allow many of the advanced upgrades to work. The integral nanite systems function as a basic framework that is able to both interface with upgrades systems and connect to an external PAN control (neither of which basic nanopaste desguises allow).

And now back to Corporate Enclaves.
Jhaiisiin
A former GM of mine decided that this might be a good idea. Having shadowruns filmed and people not only able to watch them, but take/place bets on who will die when, by what method, or if they'll succeed/fail, etc. He had it very well thought out. I'm finding this amusing that someone else had a similar idea and actually put it into print.
martindv
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Dec 11 2007, 10:45 AM)
...haven't got it yet but I always thought that LA was pretty superficial anyway.  Catch a Lakers game on the telly, sometimes it seems more like your watching the "red carpet" report at the Academy Awards than a basketball match.

(...maybe there was another writers strike grinbig.gif )

I take it you don't live here.

QUOTE (Malicant)
Pito as lack of imagination? Nice. I'd say those who lack the imagination that this is not meant as something everyone and his dog uses has a lack of... imagination.

The problem with incorporating contemporarily significant ideas is that you end up in a few years looking at it like when I watched I Love the 90s: "I can't believe I did that."
imperialus
I think a game set in LA might be fun.

Overall I think the book is pretty good. I skipped ahead and read the Tokyo section first so I'm still reading the last bit of the LA stuff but Tokyo was nicely fleshed out and provides a pretty unique city to run in. As for the P2.0 stuff I think it's neat. Sure you're broadcasting your escapades over teh intraweb but really as long as you arn't running against Horizon or the PCC I doubt anyone would care all that much.

I mean sure it's crazy and over the top but why does that mean a group that tries it is having badwrongfun. It's a cool way to make the city different.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (martindv)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Dec 11 2007, 10:45 AM)
...haven't got it yet but I always thought that LA was pretty superficial anyway.  Catch a Lakers game on the telly, sometimes it seems more like your watching the "red carpet" report at the Academy Awards than a basketball match.

(...maybe there was another writers strike grinbig.gif )

I take it you don't live here.

...visited a lot but (thank the Great Mother) never have or ever really desired to live in LA. For one, I don't drive and there's the running joke about the LA transit system: "RTD = Reason To Drive". Two, while I enjoy playing Shadowrun, I don't particularly care to live it.
Whipstitch
Pito and similar services have a place in the game, even if many shadowrunners have reason not to use such things themselves. If nothing else, things like P2.0 can be both a great tool and a real liability for Face characters. If I ever get around to GMing again, the concept is already putting visions of bringing pesky voyeurs and muckrakers who use pito as a way to gain fame as shock journalists back to shadowrun again.
Kyoto Kid
...hmmm, return of the cybersnoop?
MaxHunter
everybody, remember the "black or chrome" thread and the conversation there. For some people in some games it might be really neat to "go pito"
For others, well, they might want to avoid it and keep the "silent but deadly" black ops style, but the existence of that network doesn't affect them really.

I liked the idea even If I do not think any of my players would use it in their games. The only bad thing here is that I still haven't got the book.

Cheers,

Max
JBlades
Lol, I'll take that as a "no", not a lot of Spanish speakers here, huh?
Fortune
QUOTE (JBlades @ Dec 12 2007, 03:48 PM)
Lol, I'll take that as a "no", not a lot of Spanish speakers here, huh?

Far as I know, 'pito' means 'whistle' in Spanish, which I didn't feel was worthy of comment. Am I wrong?

'Puta', on the other hand ...
Synner
Actually, whistle is closer to the right track... think the instrument not the act (don't mind me, seriously bad pun there).
JBlades
Whistle is literally correct, the usage is closer to "skin flute" or "meat muscle of love" or even "hammer of prison sex"... A common phrase to hear on the street is "Chupo me pito" literally "Chew my whistle".

Now re-read the section and you'll get what those of us from the LA area (who pretty much all learn some Spanish growing up) are laughing about when we read things like "Pito is really big with celebrities, they're all on it" or "Your pito rating determines whether you can get into the biggest clubs". wink.gif

I think the writer just played the world's biggest dick joke since the Little Donny Foundation. That wouldn't have been you, would it, Peter? grinbig.gif
Synner
Nah, I'm just the editor that let it through - though there's a blatant reference to the slang meaning in the LA text.
JBlades
Well, I applaud you sir. I've laughed really hard today, and haven't had much chance to read yet (it's finals week).
hobgoblin
hmm, this makes me think of SLA industries, where they had a bullet tax to make agents user hand to hand weapons more (better ratings that way).

a very sick world, and getting a similar experience in SR could be "interesting"...

as for pro's not doing it? sure. but i just read that more and more crimes are solved because criminals film themselves in the act, using mobile cameras and similar eek.gif

hell, jackass and youtube have made it very simple to hand out darwin awards these days...

so overall, it would not surprise me one bit that something like that would exist. i recall there being a kind runner themed series of "films" being talked about in some of the books...

so i would guess that runners have a similar status in SR as agents had in the cold war. you hear about them, you may claim you know/be one, but in the end they are nothing like the stories make them out to be (be that heroic fighters for the common man, or something else).
Karaden
QUOTE
hell, jackass and youtube have made it very simple to hand out darwin awards these days...


Are you crazy? They've made it harder then ever, there are just sooooo many to pick from.
sloejack
Seems to me that the p2.0 stuff could be related to epic level gaming in D&D. If your public awareness get's too high don't retire your runner, move to LA where you can convert that into an asset. cool.gif
martindv
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
so overall, it would not surprise me one bit that something like that would exist. i recall there being a kind runner themed series of "films" being talked about in some of the books...

And about as realistic to shadowrunning as Bad Boys II was to police work.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (martindv)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 12 2007, 11:13 AM)
so overall, it would not surprise me one bit that something like that would exist. i recall there being a kind runner themed series of "films" being talked about in some of the books...

And about as realistic to shadowrunning as Bad Boys II was to police work.

but do the public really care? wink.gif
Fuchs
That's why I am more leaning towards the "reality tv staged runs" and not the "live feed from a real run" version.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Fuchs)
That's why I am more leaning towards the "reality tv staged runs" and not the "live feed from a real run" version.

could be both wink.gif
Demonseed Elite
Any opinions on Tokyo yet? Or maybe Manhattan? Not that I'm biased or anything. wink.gif
Earlydawn
I like Corporate Enclaves a lot. It's got a unique flair to it. Hollywood struck me as a little off-key, but I guess they just wanted to put out an option for anybody who liked an occasional run with a different objective in mind. Overall, there are enough serious cities that they can afford to throw in a mission where you're pulling some wacky Paris Hilton clone out of a raging shootout or something.

On the other hand, I think the flooded areas of LA are some of the most interesting environments I've read, perhaps next to Bug City. Defenitely enjoy the way they describe their problems keeping the dead, well.. dead. Haven't really gone through the Neo-Tokyo part with a fine tooth comb yet, but I've always been more of a western-set runner anyway. Briefly skimmed the Company Towns. New York looks good.

Overall, a good solid read. More intimate then Runner Havens, for sure, although I'd always prefer functional books like Arsenal or Unwired over a settings book anyway.
Kyoto Kid
...I'm curious about New York.
Backgammon
DE, I'm curious as to how you would see the surrounding burrough - Queens, Brooklyn, etc. Pretty much as it is now? Worse? Very different?
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Backgammon)
DE, I'm curious as to how you would see the surrounding burrough - Queens, Brooklyn, etc. Pretty much as it is now? Worse? Very different?

Each of the boroughs had a rough time during and after the Quake, especially since many people flooded out of Manhattan and ended up as refugees in the other boroughs. Each borough has recovered in different ways, with some recovering more than others.

I realize that's a bit vague, but I'm still working on those details for the full NYC write-up I'm working on.
imperialus
I really enjoyed the Tokyo chapter. It would be a really difficult city to run anything in since there are so many restrictions on things that runners normally take for granted. You almost need the polar opposite of the team you'd be running in LA. LA is glitz, glamor, classic 80's style over substance stuff while in Tokyo subtlety, discretion, and working very very quietly within a very extensive network of people is the byword.

A Tokyo campaign almost requires at least one native Japanese runner. They constantly re-iterate how difficult it is for non Japanese to break into the underworld.

Thinking about the polar opposite teams I mentioned earlier, it actually seems like you'd need a group that is the polar opposite from one that would enjoy an LA campaign. It's an interesting strategy for Catalyst, because it seems to me that half the book won't be useful to any given group out there. Just look at the Black vs. Chrome thread to get what I mean. A 'chrome' team would stick out like a sore thumb in Japan and probably end up with the Corps, Cops and Yaks all allied and gunning for them. A 'black' team would never get a halfway decent job in LA.

Some groups might be able to switch back and forth between the two styles depending on the campaign but most groups that I know of or have played in seem to fall into a particular playstyle and stick with it or evolve slowly over time. This means that the Tokyo chapter would be useless to anyone who's group tends to be more 'chrome' and the LA would be useless to anyone who likes 'black' games.

I don't know how much sense that just made... but hell it's teh intranet I'll post it anyhow.
martindv
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (martindv @ Dec 12 2007, 09:57 PM)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 12 2007, 11:13 AM)
so overall, it would not surprise me one bit that something like that would exist. i recall there being a kind runner themed series of "films" being talked about in some of the books...

And about as realistic to shadowrunning as Bad Boys II was to police work.

but do the public really care? wink.gif

I care what I think and not what the public of SR does.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (imperialus)
I really enjoyed the Tokyo chapter.  It would be a really difficult city to run anything in since there are so many restrictions on things that runners normally take for granted.  You almost need the polar opposite of the team you'd be running in LA.  LA is glitz, glamor, classic 80's style over substance stuff while in Tokyo subtlety, discretion, and working very very quietly within a very extensive network of people is the byword.

A Tokyo campaign almost requires at least one native Japanese runner.  They constantly re-iterate how difficult it is for non Japanese to break into the underworld.

Thinking about the polar opposite teams I mentioned earlier, it actually seems like you'd need a group that is the polar opposite from one that would enjoy an LA campaign.  It's an interesting strategy for Catalyst, because it seems to me that half the book won't be useful to any given group out there.  Just look at the Black vs. Chrome thread to get what I mean.  A 'chrome' team would stick out like a sore thumb in Japan and probably end up with the Corps, Cops and Yaks all allied and gunning for them.  A 'black' team would never get a halfway decent job in LA. 

Some groups might be able to switch back and forth between the two styles depending on the campaign but most groups that I know of or have played in seem to fall into a particular playstyle and stick with it or evolve slowly over time.  This means that the Tokyo chapter would be useless to anyone who's group tends to be more 'chrome' and the LA would be useless to anyone who likes 'black' games.

I don't know how much sense that just made...  but hell it's the intranet I'll post it anyhow.

...from what I gather, doesn't sound that much different from London & the UK.

Though the shadows of the Smoke may not be as "exclusive" as the Tokyo underword is, just trying to get past UK customs when you hum with implants (considering the views of British society regarding augmentation) or show up positive for magical ability, would definitely cause more than a few eyebrows to be raised. The British populace is still a disarmed populace, private security outside of extraterritorial Corporate facilities and maybe a few of the high ranking noble estates, is pretty much frowned upon, and he practise of magic is also highly restricted.

If you are armed, you are either in the National Police, the Military, of High Nobility (they still have their hunts), or a criminal. Considering that most foreign runners are not card carrying members of the first three, makes it that much easier for the authorities to sort things out.

Again that was the 2050s - 60's, not sure what London or the UK is like now.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Dec 13 2007, 02:33 PM)
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Dec 13 2007, 11:45 AM)
DE, I'm curious as to how you would see the surrounding burrough - Queens, Brooklyn, etc. Pretty much as it is now? Worse? Very different?

Each of the boroughs had a rough time during and after the Quake, especially since many people flooded out of Manhattan and ended up as refugees in the other boroughs. Each borough has recovered in different ways, with some recovering more than others.

I realize that's a bit vague, but I'm still working on those details for the full NYC write-up I'm working on.

Cool, I'm very interested in NYC. In past games, I had Queens an Brooklyns be alright places. Most wage slaves can't afford to actually live in Manhattan, so they live in those two 'burbs*. You also have the entirety of the non-corporate folks - retial workers, blue collar, etc living there. Business consists of smaller corps living by doing cuthroat rate business with the Manhattan corps and low-level retail and such.

I had The Bronx be my Barrensesque hell-hole. Patches of alright neighbourhoods (sorta like Toursitville), but large tracks of critter-infested parks, whole blocks or abandonned ruined buildings, etc. Very dangerous place. Jersey and onwards to Neward would be the industrial sectors.

* Do you think that would be the case? Maybe if you are a corpie working in Manhattan, you actually have it made enough so you can minimally live in corporate housing blocks in Harlem and the East or West sides, or at best in glitzy luxury condo closer to the Financial District.

Everything I know about NYC is from books and research, though. Never been there, don't know anyone that has (for more than like a day).

Are you going to be posting your full write up of NYC in your blog?
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Backgammon)

Cool, I'm very interested in NYC. In past games, I had Queens an Brooklyns be alright places. Most wage slaves can't afford to actually live in Manhattan, so they live in those two 'burbs*. You also have the entirety of the non-corporate folks - retial workers, blue collar, etc living there. Business consists of smaller corps living by doing cuthroat rate business with the Manhattan corps and low-level retail and such.

I had The Bronx be my Barrensesque hell-hole. Patches of alright neighbourhoods (sorta like Toursitville), but large tracks of critter-infested parks, whole blocks or abandonned ruined buildings, etc. Very dangerous place. Jersey and onwards to Neward would be the industrial sectors.


Your ideas aren't too different from mine. Though there will be some residential space for corporate citizens on Manhattan, thanks to Harlem being leveled to the ground by the Quake and being replaced by corporate housing blocks (as is mentioned in the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America.).

QUOTE (Backgammon)

Everything I know about NYC is from books and research, though. Never been there, don't know anyone that has (for more than like a day).


I'm a New Yorker by birth, and though I don't live there anymore, I still have family there and visit a few times a year. The past couple of times I've been in Manhattan, I've actually taken my camera out and photographed places specifically for inspiration for the NYC SR material. I wandered around the General Post Office in Manhattan snapping photos before it became The Post where all the neo-anarchists and SINless hang out in Corporate Enclaves.

QUOTE
Are you going to be posting your full write up of NYC in your blog?


It is intended to go on Holostreets, but I have told Catalyst that if Holostreets takes too long, I'm not going to hold the material up to wait for it. If that happens, it'll probably be compiled as a PDF and posted on my blog.
imperialus
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...from what I gather, doesn't sound that much different from London & the UK.

Well there are differences. I'd say more similarities between London and Tokyo than between Seattle and Tokyo but you do definitely get the feeling it's a different city. Cyberware is definitely more popular and common in Tokyo, they mention that cyberguns in various forms are a favored tool of assassins. Bladed weapons are also common and legal. I can't find the exact quote anywhere but the mention wageslaves carrying cheep Katana's around on a regular basis.

I think the most interesting and unique aspect of Tokyo is how closely tied all the power players are together. The Yakuza are a fairly fairly well accepted within society, corps and cops work much better together than anywhere else I've seen. Maintaining this facade is what forces the discretion.
Synner
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Dec 13 2007, 09:19 PM)
Again that was the 2050s - 60's, not sure what London or the UK is like now.

Unfortunately Cities of Intrigue is still a ways off on the schedule and I've still got a few things to hammer out on where things went after Shadows of Europe - aside, of course, what you've already learned in Emergence. Rest assured though any similarities between London and Tokyo will be skin deep at best.
Magus
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Dec 13 2007, 09:19 PM)
Again that was the 2050s - 60's, not sure what London or the UK is like now.

Unfortunately Cities of Intrigue is still a ways off on the schedule and I've still got a few things to hammer out on where things went after Shadows of Europe - aside, of course, what you've already learned in Emergence. Rest assured though any similarities between London and Tokyo will be skin deep at best.

Cities of Intrigue??

Synner do tell, what is going to cover?
Please Please with sugar and chocolate on top?
Kyoto Kid
...bloody 'ell I have to wait that long to do another campaign in the Smoke...

I like London. Tough place to be a shadowrunner. Makes for some interesting challenges.

in the comparison between Tokyo and London, I was mainly equating the the two with how hard it is for an outsider (e.g. "Gaijin" or "Yank") to break into the local shadow scene. Both are difficult but yes, for completely different reasons.
Synner
QUOTE (Magus @ Dec 14 2007, 03:35 PM)
Cities of Intrigue??  Synner do tell, what is going to cover?

There's not much I can add at this point. Cities of Intrigue is the tentative title for one of the upcoming core location book (others include Feral Cities and Awakened Haunts) and will feature sprawls that are flashpoints for national and international political intrigue. The final lineup for this book has yet to be defined and is at least partially contingent on the proposals we recieve. That said we already have a couple of proposals on file and depending on my workload, I'm considering submitting something for London myself (following through on some of the ideas in SoE and sprinkled through-out several books since).

And now back to comments on Corporate Enclaves...
FlakJacket
I haven't really had much opportunity to do anything more than skim thorough the book so far but I do have a couple of questions about the Nairobi bit at the back. Since the mass driver is built on Mount Kilimanjaro how come we didn't get even a passing mention of Tanzania, the country it's in? Granted I know it's about Nairobi and has a very limited word count but it just struck me as slightly odd, I'm guessing from the complete lack of information that it's one of those places where central government completely collapsed in Africa. And why rebuild Nairobi and set up shop there? Okay it's the nearest major city but it's still over a hundred and twenty five miles away as the crow flies from the whole point of being there. The local tribes and spirits were putting up a fight so you don't want to be right next door, but for what I'd expect it'd cost to clean up and rebuild sections of Nairobi why not just build a new corporate town nearer the mountain?

Don't get me wrong I actually quite like Tanzania being gone, ties in nicely with my ideas for the resurgent Sultanate of Zanzibar. I'm just wondering what people's ideas behind the piece were.
Tiger Eyes
As far as Nairobi is concerned, it was (and is) the capital of Kenya, a major city with a heavy corp presence even before the mass driver went up. It wasn't so much rebuilding as much as solidifying their (strangle)hold on the city and giving it a facelift. It had an existing infrastructure, roads and rail-lines to a major seaport, airports, a large industrial area, an existing government, and a fairly stable economic base. All of those factors put it pretty far ahead of the pack when it came to picking a city to base their operations out of for the corps. Not to mention a government that was willing to hand the city over to corporate control with smiles and a handshake... (And although it isn't discussed in the text, Kenya-with corporate backing-very well could have claimed the mountain and surrounding land as part of its country.)

And as for how far away it is... well, all I can say is that the corps are probably wishing it was a bit further away from the spirits and shaman who are causing so much trouble... devil.gif
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