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Wounded Ronin
Over at the Bear's Pit, I wrote some comments on the classical-fantasy-like structure of Jagged Alliance 2 and how that's at odds with modern military verisimilitude. I write a lot about how I feel a strategic RPG like Jagged Alliance 2 could fit better with modern war. Since the writing can be applied generally to RPGs set in modern times but still using traditional RPG game design or structures, I thought I could also make this post here on DSF.

Original URL: http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbth...ge=0#Post167644

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I have to say that my favorite part of playing 1.13 is the Drassen counter attack. It's intense, challenging, and thrilling; I am only one of many people who post about how amazing it is.

After playing the Drassen counter attack the rest of the game can seem a bit dull by comparison, especially if Deidrianna has cleaned out her entire troop pool in that one scenario. (Obviously I'm not talking about Insane mode smile.gif ). The reason has to do mostly with the way that most of the maps are set up in JA2, which involves having your squad creep along exterminating redshirts who are often hiding in strategic places. I feel like this is something of a throwback to the old paradigm of fantasy RPGs (Sir Tech, of course, was responsible for the most excellent Wizardry series, which I remember playing as a 4th grader back on my old Apple IIC) where the brave adventurers have to creep through the cave and fight monsters who may be guarding treasure while being arranged in strategic patterns. This is also apparent in a few other aspects of how JA2 was designed. For example, SirTech probably expected players to progress gradually through Arulco and take over mines as opposed to rushing the capital, since rushing the capital results in pistol-wielding palace guards. There's also the classical dungeon crawl award mechanic where the player gradually uncovers the best weapons primarily by exploring the maps and opening chests that may be trapped or picking them off of slain enemies.

However, a lot of these pillars of fantasy RPG design are really at odds with a modern military setting. A band of 18 mercenaries probably wouldn't try to take and hold a vast amount of territory from an army of thousands. Highly-paid mercenaries would be likely to bring their own excellent equipment whenver possible instead of relying mostly on luck to find good weapons in-country once fighting has already started; see the Blackwater mercs in Iraq, for example. And why must the mercenaries start all the way up at the northern border and work their way south instead of inserting at the palace by Zodiac craft, whacking the Queen before she knows that an enemy is present, and then extracting? Now, I'm not saying that these kinds of elements would necessarily be good for a game, but rather just that in many ways the gaming conventions of the RPG genre don't really make sense taken as a whole in a modern military context.

I think that part of the reason that I enjoy the Drassen counter attack is because it makes sense in a modern military context. If a group of guerilla fighters took over a key mining town and airport, it's more realistic that the national army would respond with overwhelming force than the national army mostly ignoring the incursion, staying in their strategic hidey holes in other towns, and occasionally feeding the odd platoon of infantry to a situation where they're completely outgunned and not supporting that platoon at all.

If somebody wanted to use the JA2 1.13 engine to create a game with more verisimilitude regarding modern-day conflicts what would the key differences between the modder's project and the original JA2 be? Without completely throwing out the engine or the underlying concepts, how could JA2 be re-designed to make more sense as a whole in the context of modern day conflict?

In the first place, the emphasis would be off gradual exploration of the sectors. If the characters take over a sector they would be able to briefly access the goods and services contained therein before the computer army launches a massive Drassen-like counter-attack. Hand in hand with this could be a more realistic handling of the Arulcan army. The Arulcan army could start with a certain strength in terms of combat-ready infantry, let's say hypothetically 5,000 infantrymen, and there's also a pool of reservists (yellow shirts, the crappiest grade of soldier) who may be used for combat, let's hypothetically say 2,500. At the beginning of the game a large proportion of those infantry, perhaps half or one quarter, are elites, and the elites spearhead and make up the bulk of all the attacks. When the player characters take over a sector thousands of blackshirts and redshirts descend on the sector in a Drassen-like counterattack until either the player is defeated or retreats, or all the attackers are dead. This would make strategic diversions on the part of the player, such as taking over 2 seperate sectors instead of 1, more important in terms of drawing troops away from the player's real objective, and would thus improve the strategic aspect of gameplay.

The Arulcan army could also respond in more interesting ways to casualties rather than it just taking a certain amount of time to respawn losses, and the way in which it responds to casualties could have more to do with some of the theory behind guerilla war. In the first place, as blackshirts are killed, redshirts could be trained to replace them and be promoted after a certain amount of time. At the same time, both redshirts and yellowshirts (the yellowshirts would now be the reservists, remember) could be slowly replenished through conscription, and the yellowshirts would re-appear slightly faster due to lower training demands. However, as time passes, Arulcan army casualties mount, and recruiters become more aggressive, the morale of the army goes down, and less fit candidates for recruitment get conscripted. So based on a mathematical formula involving the number of casualties inflicted by the player, the amount of time the war has been continuing, and the number of player characters killed by the Arulcan army, each enemy infantry man could get a slowly growing penalty to his Morale.

Taking a cue from the under-rated strategic classic Midwinter, the Arulcan army's statistics might also be affected if the player raids certain key sectors and blows up facilities which are of use to the enemy. For example, if the player were to go and blow up the military academy, the rate at which losses are replaced by the enemy could go down. If the player were go and destroy the factories in Grumm, the Arulcan army's equipment would be downgraded and maybe each enemy would carry less ammunition. Perhaps the enemy could, with passage of time, rebuild the facilities, but this would cost money. The game could keep track of money expenditure versus mine income and if the expenditure were too great compared to mine income maybe the Arulcan government can't afford to send out any more airstrikes, or maybe the amount of ammunition each enemy carries is reduced even further. What comes to mind is the scarcity experienced by the Imperial Japanese Army during World War II when they were down to making grenades out of ceramic and telling their fighter pilots that if they could not shoot down the American bombers with the very scarce supply of ammunition they were issued that they needed to commit suicide by ramming the bombers. Destroying certain facilities might hurt the player, as well. For example, if the player decides to blow up the hospital, maybe all wounded enemies who run off the map are considered to die, and maybe Arulcan Army morale drops a lot, but then all the townspeople who provide goods and services really hate the player characters and don't help them, or something.

The way that equipment, both for the player characters, and the Arulcan Army could be handled in very different ways as well. It would no longer be a stepladder from crappy equipment to good equipment. Instead, the player characters would start with good equipment, and would have a chance to shop from a well-stocked Bobby Ray's before arriving in-country. The Arulcan Army would start at full strength with DMRs and RPGs and all that good stuff. With time, though, there would be pressure put on that equipment in terms of the mercenaries' stuff getting worn out, and in terms of the Arulcan Army's equipment degrading as described above.

Ideally, there would be under this style of game a perfectly logical and reasonable reason that the player couldn't just assault the capital on day 1...with the Army thousands strong, with the best equipment, high morale, and heaps of ammunition, it should be highly unlikely that even the best player can succeed in the attack. However, given time, as Army morale drops, as possibly all the troops are killed by the player and the recruitment stream is barely generating a platoon at a time to deal with the player characters, as Army equipment falls into the toilet, that's when the player has the chance to strike and take the capital with reasonable chance of success.

Finally, there could be a carnage lovers' Fallout 2 style narrative ending. If the player has destroyed a lot of Arulco's infrastructure by blowing up key buildings it talks about how the economy was devastated. If the player has killed off the entire army and lots of recruits it talks about how the countryside was stripped of able-bodied men and the demographic problems this entailed. If the player did lots of things to hurt Loyalty such as inflicting collateral damage or blowing up too many buildings it talks about how the people really hate Enrico now. Maybe if the net damage done by the player really takes the cake Arulco makes the international news as the humanitarian crisis of the century, or something. I feel like that would be a pretty satisfying ending, plus it would also reward those skilled players who are able to re-take Arulco while minimizing the amount of damage done with a better ending.
Blade
I think you're not considering it from the right angle.

Fantasy RPG (or fantasy worlds actually) are made with gaming in mind. The real world isn't.

So in fantasy world, you'll have monsters getting together in some dungeon, stacking a lot of gold, for some strange purpose. Sometimes, they'll kidnap the local princess or attack the nearby village for fun. Then you have people who's sole purpose in life is to travel around, go to these places and claim the gold (and occasional princess). Most of the time it just makes sense because the world is designed that way. Sometime it doesn't even make sense but nobody cares because it's a fantasy world and that's what you'd expect.

It reminds me of an excellent French comic series called Dungeon. It's about a dungeon in some wacky (actually both wacky and serious) fantasy world. The dungeon is a business, monsters are employees and heroes are client. The heroes can get away with treasure if they're good enough, but if they get killed (which is the case most of the time) the dungeon gets their belongings.
In that world, the idea of a dungeon and adventurers makes sense, but that's because the world was built around this idea.

You can't do that with real world. So most of the time, some gaming elements (such as rewarding the player and allowing him to gradually learn the game by giving him better weapons over time) will conflict with the realism of the world. In that case, you can go three different ways:

1) Find a way to explain everything in the setting (your experienced mercenary starts with no gun because he couldn't bring one in the plane and his contact who should've brought the guns had a problem). Outcast went this way, even finding in-game explanations for the game saving!
2) Consider that realism is fun. The infiltration mod for UT did this, with a really realistic game in every aspect that's still fun to play.
3) Rely on suspension of disbelief: players will accept some departures from realism as long as it's not too far fetched and serves the game.

JA chose, in my opinion, the third solution and it looks like you'd expect it to go for the second one.
nezumi
Part of this problem is because of the idea of a (relatively easy) leveling system, especially in long campaigns with a known enemy.

Blackwater troops are all very well trained. In fact, they are specifically chosen because they are top of their game and not likely to get much better. In Shadowrun terms they have 9s or 12s in their primary skills. It will cost an obscene amount of karma to increase those skills, points which could be better spent elsewhere. Unfortunately, in a level-based game, if you choose any level they ARE going to get the next level no matter what, and that means they WILL get better at their primary skill, ergo they are NOT at the top of their game. The situation you suggested is completely appropriate for a high-level Shadowrun campaign/game - you know who the enemy is, you know where he is. Your delay is for getting resources, making a plan, putting things in place, then you strike at the head and ignore all the low level goons. You don't start with the Ares facility in Raleigh, get some XP, go to the Ares facility in Salt Lake City, get some XP and so on. If you're hitting Raleigh, it's because Raleigh is of some greater strategic importance.

A CRPG which supports a Shadowrun-esque advancement system can easily have situations like what you are looking for.

The second thing is CRPGs are always always meant to be a campaign that starts from non-professional farm boy and ends at your overcoming some very powerful enemy. It would be equivalent to all of the green recruits we send to Iraq fresh out of boot camp. I don't know if any CRPG where you start out as a professional on the same level you're supposed to end at (Planescape Torment might be an exception, although I seem to recollect the plot there was based around uncovering a mystery, not about attacking a particular bad guy).


The idea you have is interesting. I've never played Jagged Alliance, so I can't really comment on the specifics. But what if you included something such that you need to find ammunition for your equipment out in the field (no air drops) and your equipment regularly needs repairs or replacement. As the country you're fighting has worse and worse equipment they're using, you're forced to scavenge lesser and lesser equipment on your own side. You run out of rockets by level 5, your M-16s jam and break at level 10, by level 15 7.62 ammo is becoming scarce as your enemies destroy their stocks before you can get there. If you string it out long enough, the game would end with you attacking the palace with both you and the palace guards wielding pistols, even though you both started with tanks and rocket launchers.

Thoughts?
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (nezumi)
The idea you have is interesting. I've never played Jagged Alliance, so I can't really comment on the specifics. But what if you included something such that you need to find ammunition for your equipment out in the field (no air drops) and your equipment regularly needs repairs or replacement. As the country you're fighting has worse and worse equipment they're using, you're forced to scavenge lesser and lesser equipment on your own side. You run out of rockets by level 5, your M-16s jam and break at level 10, by level 15 7.62 ammo is becoming scarce as your enemies destroy their stocks before you can get there. If you string it out long enough, the game would end with you attacking the palace with both you and the palace guards wielding pistols, even though you both started with tanks and rocket launchers.

Thoughts?

This idea really appeals to me, at least in principle.

JA2 actually sort of implemented stuff like this, where each item has a status of repair given as a % and as the status went down the item was more likely to malfunction, so that explosives wouldn't go off and guns would jam. Items could be repaired, however, by a character with a Repair Kit given some time.

This wasn't as realistic or draconian as the idea you're suggesting, however, because anything could be repaired to perfect status, including body armor, grenades, and chemical glow sticks (!).

I think that the game would be more interesting and require more thought if certain items could be maintained but not fully repaired (i.e. your worn out rifle can be maintained but if it gets badly damaged it can't be repaired, and grenades can't be repaired at all, and body armor can't be repaired) as it would call for more judicious scavenging over the course of the game and would act as a natural difficulty gradient as the characters progress through the game.
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