All:

I have the impression that there's been a regime change in the Tir, but can't remember where I got that impression. Does anyone have an idea? And would you be so kind as to mention the publication where that info is located?

Thanks so much in advance.

I thought for sure it was mentioned in the history section of SR4, but it's not. Maybe System Failure? I don't have that one on PDF.

Nope, nothing there. Something is seems to be going on, but no source has told us what, yet.

There was a revolution in Tir Tairngire after the Crash 2.0. The coup removed the Council of Princes and was led by Rinelle; whether there was a relation to the the New Revolution coups in North Am is unknown. Little or nothing is revealed about the revolution itself except that High Prince Lugh Surehand is on the run.

Glimpses of the current, 2070 situation have been featured in Runner Havens (Seattle) and Corp Enclaves (LA).

I asked Rob a similar question, about the backstory behind Lugh Surehands fall from power. He said it was in a novel by Mulvihill, and that the novel was "in limbo". Have not seen or heard anything about it since.

...yeah, I am very interested in this as well considering I live in RL Portland and have wanted to set a campaign here again. The last one I ran kind of was trashed when the TT sourcebook came out as I didn't expect the Tir to be the pseudo aristo-fascist -racist regime as it was portrayed in the supplement

What did you expect from immortal elves? Enlightened Utopia?

But to go a little off-topic: does anyone have any info on new SR novels? I crave to read stuff. SR is the only RPG where I actually liked the novels.

It sure would be nice of them to tell us, someday. It continues to irk me that they spent multiple editions and several game books telling us how awesome Immortal Elves (and as such the rulers of Tir Tairngire) are, did their best to convince us they're super ninja hardcore, telling us no one fucks with the Tir, their Border Guard are totally awesome, blah blah blah... and then dropping us one book with mention of a terrorist group being there, and then fast-fucking-forwarding things on us to just mention in passing that the High Prince is running away from his own Ghosts (oh, and please pass the salt, thanks).

If the novels in limbo, release the mo'fo on line or something. Flesh it out a LITTLE in a history lesson in some other books. Hell, make the news update on the web page a list of the new Council, one day. Give us something.

Citizens demand answers !!

I on the other hand am glad to know that the Immortal Elves were incapable to adapt to the economical realities of the 6th world and ruined their wannabe-elven paradise with all that supercyber-ninja-army expenses, superhigh technology stuffing, police-control, uber-magic reliancy, and other stuff, proving that the Immortal Elves aren't awesome at all. They're old-fashioned, and still believe that isolationism and sitting in woods will solve all problems.

That's the right direction that Shadowrun took with Shadows over North America and then Runner Havens.

Ha, dumb Immortal Elves...

Exactly. I really like the "new Tir".

That'S so great about Elves in SR and ED. They are not Tolkien-super-wisdom type of elves. They fuck things up on a regular basis. Bloodwood anyone?

Oops. And here my group's gone and led up to a intra-Tir/inter-Tir war all on it's own....

Well there is still Tir Nan Nog. Immortal Elves there too, but they have the entire country that was renamed.

And they have serious trouble with the protective mist they have build around the island. Sucks to be unable to learn from past mistakes.

...Particle_Beam: Damn straight.

First they shot themselves in the foot by screwing up their biggest city. Instead of promoting Portland as a gateway and centre for international commerce, the council in it's infinite wisdom decided to demote it almost into obscurity. The once vibrant city became pretty much nothing more than a repository for the "heathen" as evidenced by the Portland Wall. (Tir Taringire setting book)

Next, by severely limiting activities of the Megas within the Tir borders (and trying to at the same time compete with them in several industries), they throttled their own economic development. Yes the Corps would have extraterritoriality for their complexes, but their employees would still pump money back into the local economy. The odd thing what was good for the others didn't apply to the TT as their installations, including gates are airports where the state airline flew to, were considered sovereign territory. (Tir Taringire setting book).

Third by alienating almost all other metatypes (particularly humans) they sewed seeds of dissent and cut themselves off from a valuable labour pool.

Finally there was the border lockdown after Dunkie's assassination (SoNA). By closing themselves off from what little foreign trade they still had, the council basically drove the final stake through the heart of the "Land of [broken] Promise" as this led to a near economic collapse.

Then they put Hestaby on the Council of Princes, something akin to putting Salman Rushdie on the Guardian Council.

I'd really like to get some hard fast info on Tir. My runners just figured out that tunnels off the ork underground are commonly used to smuggle goods and people to and from there.

...the logic of that move still confounds me.

They didn't really put her in there. It was like they all came back from celebrating Lofwyrs departure and Hestaby was already there.

...and as much as I dislike both, that is why I place GDs above IEs on the SR foodchain.

Oh god yes! They're freaking DRAGONS!

Last time I checked, when an IE gets gacked they don't rip holes in the fabric of space and time.

And now to flame bait:

GD's>IE's

Go!

Keep thinking that way ...

I'll pick Dragon over ex-Dragon employee anytime. Although, if Aina would be the IE in question, I might reconsider (not beeing in the ex-Dragon employees club and all).

Now if only they would have made Ghostwalker a little bit less silly and godzilla-like, and more cunning and sneaky, as other dragons were depicted as, when he "conquered" Denver, that would have been a little bit better. Just a little bit, but still better.
Oh well, you can't change the crappy parts of the Shadowrun setting history like that big brutish wizzworm, I'm afraid.

I always love when the Tir comes up. I still remember in High School when my parents said we were moving to Portland, I was like "Yay, Im coming home to the Tir!" The complete lack of fluff support from the developers though is VERY disappointing to say the least. Critias, I share your sentiments completely. Instead of being so selfish, just release the fucking pdf, WE WILL BUY IT! Why didnt they at least give us something in Corporate Enclaves.

And WHY is Surehand on the run? Sure he isnt Ehran or Harlequin, but he is still a bad ass mother. They all are. I dont really think it is worthwhile to compare Great Dragons and Immortal Elves, since Dragons drink SOOOOOO much further up the river than elves do. Its amazing that some metahumans are even in the position of being compared. That is something in and of itself. I know I am always an elf cheerleader (Go Pointy Ears!). Sure they aren't all Elrond, but then again, even in Tolkien's world, he was the exception. Even the immortal make mistakes. They just have more time learn, hopefully.

Anyways, If there are any SR dev's listening, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD GIVE US INFORMATION!

Surehand ran to Amazonia. You can read all about it in Shadows of Latin America.

I think I'm being misunderstood -- I don't mind that it happened. I really don't. I'm fine with things being shaken up, and someone suddenly deciding (after however many years) to insist on a little tiny pinch of modern-day realism messing up the pseudo-feudal, pseudo-facsist, Tir state. I'm okay with it.

What I'm not okay with was how it was a total blindside, and one that still (depite happening several years ago, in-game) still hasn't been explained to us. Or, even if not explained, have the ramifications explained, so we can go on with TT-focused games.

It's just a poor precedent to spend years and years telling us how awesome and mighty a group is, and then to suddenly have that mighty castle topple like a house of cards (and not even tell anyone where the pieces landed). It leaves an awful lot of characters in limbo, for fear of continuing a game (set in the Tir, or based around Tir politics) and then somewhere down the road they decide to share the canon "what happened" scenario with us and by then your game's accidentally diverged from the official setting.

It's an irritation to me to be left in the dark, because the Tir, and the fallout of the sort of chaos that's been described, is very important to more of my characters than not. It's a big fat speedbump, to me, to just get "oh and btw Surehand's on the run, LOL" and no more information, no clue as to what happened or what didn't, yadda yadda yadda. I couldn't care less about a novel, I can fill in little gaps and character hooks all by myself. I just want the data to work with, so that some games can keep moving without wandering away from canon (and, as a result, not getting any value from any future books that do detail the Tir situation). I love making micro decisions on my own and filling in small gaps in my games and their background and character. I don't like making macro decisions, and having to write my own nation-scale timeline (while still buying sourcebooks that should do that for me).

unless the team is in the middle of a run, just have them pull out for a "while" as things have become to topsy turvy for it to be safe for them to be involved or something like that.

then as/if info comes out in future books, have them move back in as things start to clear up.

but then i try to avoid mixing backstory and gaming, as people have a bad habit of getting into story changing positions...

Yeah, while they did build up Rinelle here and there, the fact that Rinelle finally succeeded and the Princes were running for the border totally threw me. I think the real issue with the Tir, was that there werent enough elves. They were trying to be Japanese, but without the Japanese complete Ethnic dominance. They really should have made Tir citizenship Jus sanguinis, or that all Elves are allowed to be citizens, but everyone else has to work for it (as they should )

What the biggest problem in the Tir was (aside from the obvious economic issues), was that they tricked all the other metatypes into thinking that they were equal to elves (which they arent). If the Tir Government had been upfront in the beginning, things would have worked out as they should have. Then the revolutionaries would not be fighting for equal rights, but for land (a much less sympathetic reason). Now under those circumstances, the Tir might of had to limit it's size at bit (aka, we dont need Idaho), but I think if the current populace is given a proper eviction package instead of repressing them with a system obviously stacked against them, the force of righteousness would shine on the Tir.

Instead, they went about it completely underhandedly and fucked everything up. Way to go you arrogant Immortals. (Byebye my elven nation )

That's not a poor precedent. It's just bad writing.


That's an awful suggestion.

Especially as a fix for bad writing. And it does not just apply to Tir Tairngire. So you're basically suggesting to not run in large swaths of the world, and major cities that used to be fun and interesting to run in like Portland or San Francisco. (Speaking of Corporate Enclaves...)

I'm gonna jump out on a limb here, and say Martin doesn't like that suggestion.

No, I do not.

I edited out his multiple posts. - F4.0

I disapprove of your edits. My comment was funnier when you just said the same thing three times in a row.

But then I look retarded.

That's funny for you. But it sucks for me.

I thought you just looked emphatic.

Basically, my beef with it (and I'm well aware it's just my beef) is that there's just a big fucking hole that we can't really work with for fear of clashing with later canon.

Imagine if, after three editions and multiple sourcebook mentionings and stuff, suddenly SR4 came out and there was no more cyberware. No one could tell you what was replacing it, Essence loss was still there (so the mechanic itself hadn't changed), but you didn't know why no one was implanting any more cyberware in 2070, or what they were implanting instead. You had to wait until a novel "stuck in limbo" got finished, to explain the whole thing.

Now, try to run (or rather, continue) a long-running Shadowrun game, full of street samurai. They don't have chrome any more (or maybe they do), they can't get new chrome (or can they? No one's sure what chrome still is or isn't allowed), and you can't really just assume it's all bioware now (because the book never really says).

Do you just avoid the problem and keep running a game, trying to ignore that a big chunk of the characters are up in the air right now? Just ignore it and wait for the new book to come out? Put your game on hold?

Now, I know the politics of Tir Tairngire aren't on the same scale in most games as the importance of cyberware. I know that's why no one but me really cares, and that because no one but me really cares I won't get an answer very soon. I understand that.

But it is pretty much the situation I'm in, with...off the top of my head...three different characters right now. Their backstories are so tied into the goings-on with the Tir, the Rinelle, etc, that I'm left either ignoring them and not running the character any more (which I've done with one, despite him being arguably my favorite RPG character, ever) or running a wholly non-canonical game (which I've done with another) where the coup never actually happened, or running a partially non-canonical game (which I've done with another), where we're making up our own post-Coup intrigue and just hoping our whole game won't get thrown in the shitter when the real data is released to us.

And, well, it's irritating.

Don't be so quick to count the 'Princes' out. I have a feeling they still have a trick or two up their sleeves.

Oh, and Critias: Don't think you're the only one. Almost all of my characters have some involvement or interest in Tir Tairngire.

kinda like "if i cant take the ship with me, im going to sink it"?

Nah! I just think there's too much Power at stake in the Tir for them to give it up so easily. They'll be back, either together or individually.

I am not so sure. This follows the pattern established when fanpro first took over the franchise. Unless catalyst go in a completely different direction (unlikely) allo the old elements that have ties to ED will just be scrapped with no strong explanation

That is one way to see it. Another take is that the Tir becomes much more open for use in SR, with several high-power-but-stealthy interests on all sides. Rinelle might still run ops (depends on SoLA), the corps need to divide the place between them, the princes might want back in power, and several! Great Dragons have their paws in it, too.

I´m personally more interested in the Yucatan situation. Aztlan vs. Amazonia would make for one earth-shaking war, especially if the PCC decides to overextend itself some more.

Surehand is not Ehran or Harlequin, but if I remember correctly he isn't even an IE. He's a Spike Elf who tried to become immortal but his plans got screwed (i.e. eaten) by Lofwyr. So he's not so much up on the power scale and keeping out of trouble is a smart thing to do for him.

He is indeed an Immortal Elf. According to Ancient History ...

OT: Rhiannon is a celtic goddess who took a mortal partner (and suffered substantial pain for it). Maybe the torch is a symbolic encouragement for Lugh to keep fighting for the mortal elves/other metahumans? I did not find anything suggesting the torch is a special symbol for Rhiannon, but "carry on the torch" would generally work, right?

Wasn't it Aithne Oakforest's son who got eaten by Lofwyr?

I too would like to know more about what's happening in TT. In both Tir's actually. Maybe the revolution in TT might have an effect on Tir Na nOg?

Lofwyr eats way to many people to remember.

Well, my memory on Lugh is a little fuzzy, but my impression was always him no beeing immortal, just friggin' old. Whatever. Still, the immortality researcher eaten by Lofwyr was a spike elf.

heh, lofwyr, the billy goat of SR

It was Oakforest Jr.



Who?

Surehand is, in fact, an IE. And also quite the badass (even compared to other IE's), if I remember his Earthdawn stats (several thousand years and a couple bajillion xp ago).


It's only more open for us in SR if they fucking resolve the situation, or at least get us up to date. As it is, it's just a gaping hole that no one can really use unless they throw canon out the window and make up all their own stuff (which they could just as easily do anywhere else, any-when else, for any other reason).

The Forever Drug. Some Elf Chick reconstructed the Immortality procedure based on dragon blood. Don't try to mess with dragons, once again.

Ah right. That was the vaccine that was supposed to be distributed in accordance with Dunklenose's Will. Loffie messed that up pretty good.