I'm pretty sure this has been bought up somewhere else, but can't find it specifically in the search.

I was trying to stat the best Olympic standard running machine using SR4 rules, and it rapidly became apparent that the most athletic runners are trolls. In fact, short of pure Agility based physical feats, trolls are hands down the best athletes in the game. Given this, is it prejudice against Metahumans that has stopped a troll breaking all the world records for track & field events in the 2060s?

For example, a troll with Exceptional Attribute (Strength) and maxed out natural Body, Strength and Willpower, along with Aptitude (Running) and maxed out Running with specialization in Sprinting can cover 100m in around 6.38 seconds and sustain that speed for over 700m without breaking sweat. Pushing to the point where stun from fatigue hits maximum means they can cover 1km in just over 1 minute, and that is without any augmentation or drug assistance. By comparison, even a fully augmented Human or Elf will only hit the early to mid 7s for 100m.

Fully bio and geneware'd up (i.e. Neo EPO, Hyper Glucagon, Genetic Optimization of Body, Strength and Willpower, Muscle Augmentation 4, Extended Volume 3, Suprathyroid, Synthacardium, Pain Editor) he could cover 100m in around 5.45 seconds and do the mile run in under 1.5 minutes, all without suffering any fatigue at all.

At normal jogging speeds (i.e. base running speed, no Sprinting) if his specialization was changed to Long Distance, even without the augmentations he can run a marathon in under 1 hour, and with the above augmentations could do that marathon in an hour without even breathing hard.

So I guess my point is, does the fluff mention athletic competitions being dominated by trolls, or is it assumed they are too small in number or restricted from entering?

Oh, as a side point, has anyone houseruled the fatigue rules? Body + Willpower (2) to keep going each turn when sprinting is not too much of a problem when you can have 16-20 dice to fling at it, leading to the potential to keep running full speed practically forever...

Stop crunching numbers, you do realise this is a rather exceptional character neh?
first of, he is at the very prime of his metatypes psychical abilities, second he possess close legendary expertise in running, my theory is that since sports still practiced selective elitism, most trolls will never bother to strive for being champs cause the only sports they're ever likely to be allowed to attend to on proffesional levels dont really pack that much punch in prestige. If you know you will never be able to participate in the Olympics due to racism, you most likely dont got the motivation to be the fastest trog around, mind that trolls are still the most likely subjects of prejudice.
that just my two

Fair point about the number crunching - just had a player who wanted to be the 'fastest man alive' and was a little disheartened to realise that even the fastest human is slower than an un-augmented troll. And you can scale the numbers back to more sensible levels and still trolls are going to dominate.

Guess the racism/prejudice angle is probably the main reason they don't compete.

As far as I know as of the Tokyo Olympics in '56 nonhumans were barred from entering the official Olympic games with humans (and it's been that way ever since). Metahumans competed for show in exhibition contests, but you wont find a troll gold medal winner.

things like UFC, strongest man, and toughman competitions would probably get sectioned out based upon race since there is such a clear difference between trolls and humans in terms of physical prowess.

I can see troll strongest man competitions for charity

I'm sure there must be troll-only competitions, since nobody can compete physically with a troll except another troll. I also imagine that trog rights advocates don't like troll athletics, because it would be like a freak show. The trogs are only being valued for their amazing physical attributes, and not their minds. Also, showing off just how powerful a troll is isn't a good way to make others feel comfortable about them, and will perpetuate the stereotype that trolls are dumb brutes. But there's money to be made in freak shows, so I bet it still goes on.

Troll charity Jeopardy anyone?

"The first President of the United States of America."
*beep beep*
"George Washington"
"Sorry answers must be phrased as a question."
"What is I'm going to rip up this podium and beat you to death with it if I don't get my points?"

They say there is a "gentlemens' agreement" to limit the number or Orks and Trolls in football. I assume that goes for other sports too.

The changed ones were not kept out of the '56 games. they were given their own games, seperate from the human games, to prevent there from being an threat to the changed ones from a hostile crowd.

I do not know if that ban was carried on to further games.

If you want subtle prejudice, how about a limit in the size of troll shorts and running shoes. At the official village the only beds are human sized. Meaning a troll has to sleep on the floor or in a stupidly undersized bed. If the weight training is on human size machines it won't help them, sorry no free wieghts. And the diet is strictly controlled for optomim performance-human performance-so the trolls would be malnourished.

If you do not just look at the numbers and the rules you have to imagine how big and heavy a troll is.
I know that longer legs lead to bigger steps, but did you ever take a big piece of cardboard when you were a child, held it in front of your upper body and ran? I think the dimensions of a troll would slow him down seriously. At least this is what I imagine.

In the analogon of the child using that cardboard there will be much more resistance compared to length of legs and muscle mass . . with a troll, that would be more or less proportional to each other so a troll won't suffer as much from his own size . . now imagine a troll holding one or two doors in front of him and then trying to run, that's more like it *g*

Oh... thanks. Imagine cool runners at a rainy night coming out of their favorite bar and then a troll like this is running down the street...
This funny picture will never leave my mind again. *g*

hey, we are slow(if not in the legs), not dumb!
he'd hold the door ABOVE his head to avoid rain <.< . . .

I always assumed that orcs, trolls and cybered individuals play in their own leagues. They are unbalanced compared to their natural or human counterparts.

Elves and Orcs play at least in baseball with humans . .
trolls and dwarves got their own leagues as far as i remember

Dwarf baseball.

If there ever was a game designed for beer, that is it.

Right, leagues that are seperate from the one with humans in them, but fully equal in the opportunities they offer to changed ones. That sounds fair.

Yeah, and keeping races separate but equal has a long and successful history in North America. Oh wait.

the races themselves make the seperation, not the governing parties.

Ha! I think that would last for as long as it took a troll to pick up the nearest troll rights activist and batter him against the nearest wall.

Troll: "Demeaning?" Picks up protestor and jams predator in face. "Tell me what's demeaning of this, pal!"

As much as I dislike the notion "separate but equal", I feel that it is the only option in this case. Im not sure if Orcs and Elves might be able to compete with Humans fairly, but Trolls and Dwarves are too far outside the norm that I just cant see it happening. Trolls are SO big that certain events they would dominate purely because they were born as Trolls. Whether this is good or bad I dont know. What I do know is that it is unfair. The same would go the other way for Dwarves. They wouldnt have a chance in sprinting compared to other races, but that doesnt mean that among them, some are faster than others.

I think if all where allowed to compete on the same stage, they would definitely keep different races' records separate.

Or we have affarmative action and the NBA's Chicago Bulls introduces their state mandated, I mean, exciting new prospect at forward, Howard "3feet 6 is tall enough" Desmangles

I can't imagine any exceptions being made for dwarves, they can compete but why bother with the dwarven disadvantages. Elves and Orcs would for the most part be able to compete with humans. But Orcs don't have the resources as much to make it, or reach their limits. Elves on the other hand wouldn't compete, because they already know they're better than humans (damn elves...). Trolls would probably be straight up banned, nobody's going to fund a seperate olympics for them and their awakening would be considered "performance enhancing magic". Perhaps trolls would be allowed in Cyber/Troll leagues, but they're pretty niche, and so there's probably not too many of them.

Interesting thought...
Cyber league football = Nascar or Battlebots
Its only minimally based on skill, and alot based on
(Not saying Nascar doesn't have skill, but its basically a machine and pilot, and even Nascar has regulations to keep a level field)

there's a bit about football being regarded as allmost bloodsport somewhere i think . .

There is a difference.

Black, White, pink, yellow, Rainbow there is pretty much minimal difference physical maximums.

There is a difference between a troll and a Human as their norms and maxes are off of each other. Its not Seperate but Equal, it really is seperate and different for fairness's sake. A Human can't really withstand the full on Blitz of a Troll Based Defensive line. Its all about keeping the playing field physically fair.

now that would be an intresting match, i'd imagine shadowrun unrestricted soccer looking something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U-voZv0M7I

Extrapolating from the desegregation cases in US history the UCAS courts would probably wind up justifying a quota system for at least some sports. This could be proportional to population figures in sports with large teams (I guess) or more likely to ensure some representation on the teams according to the nature of the sport. For example, there could be a two troll on the field rule in football, or only 800 kilos of weight among the three offensive players on an urban brawl team. There's also the fact that the moment a poli mentions "separate but equal" he's going down for precisely those historical reasons. It's a phrase with a lot of weight behind it. Of course that feeling's strongest in the south, which is a different country now...

Sorry to jump on this late..., but they might just call is Hach'var!


Back up to speed:

If they did try and pull a "seperate but equal," they'd really have to have a completely different name for it.. "Special" might also carry too much of a freak show air to it... I could see an innocous thing like the "A" for humans/elves/orks, the "AA" league for Trolls, "AAA" for cybered to the gills, or some such innocent sounding distinction.... I do like the Battlebots analogy though, it certainly makes sense.... and com'n who won't vote for the troll named "Vlad"???

The other problem with a quota system like that, is injuries could get ugly.... the coach to "Bubba the Trog": Bubba, I want you to blitz and sack the QB....make it look like you tripped and didn't mean it, but send him to the hospital, OK!? ... I mean even a 300 lbs. heavy hitting human could get mauled with the sheer size and strength of trolls in football!!!

Heh, remember the Ivory Coast Crusher? Made the gamewinning TD in Superbowl (really high number) for the Seahawks dragging three of the other team for the last ten yards?

Eh, a modern day NFL player is barely human anyway. And they probably have fairly advanced armor (impact at least).

ain't gonna happen. sports now are not proportional to the population with just color as the difference and not mention of actual physical difference.

You mean basket ball teams in the NBA are not 5% asian? Football? Hockey?

Which is I why I said "or more likely to ensure some representation on the teams according to the nature of the sport."
Regardless, I remember that football is a highly racially integrated sport according to canon. I think someone asked about that. Gah, too early.

If I remember correctly, Trolls are mainly on the lines, (and the occasional middle linebacker and fullback) Orks are mostly outside linebackers, safeties, runningbacks, and tight ends, and elves and humans are most often quarterbacks, wide receivers, and cornerbacks.

Didn't remember anything about dwarves. though.

Dwarves take the snap and hold the ball for extra point kicks?

Dwarves are the ball?

Incredibly strong, tough, and short, dwarves could actually prove to be gnarly linemen.

Ref1: "Did his knee touch the ground?"

Ref2: "How the hell should I know?"

I'll have to ask my super-fan buddies what the legality would be of throwing players. If allowed, a troll quarterback with a dwarf "short yard specialist" would be great for picking up those last few yards on a drive.