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BRodda
Ok I was going over Arsenal last night and I see that now I can have quickdraw for 2 BP or 4 karma...

Boy I feel stupid having Quickdraw as an adept power now; I could have spent that .5 on Killing Hands. Or Armor. Or just about anythign else. And all it would have cost me is my 1/1 joygirl contact.

*sigh*

The only upside is I get to see if Throw Person manuver uses my strength bonus for throw items (I'm a throw adept and that +8 would be great for chucking people down hallways). love.gif

Anyone have thoughts on if the Adept power is inherently better and I'm just missing something?
Any argements that say I can't chuck people better than a troll?
The Jopp
Lets see...

Troll STR 10
Bone Augmentation 4
Muscle Augmentation 2
Thai Boxing X2
Karate X2
Martial Arts: +4
Str: +6
Bone augmentation: +3
Hardliner Gloves: +1

Total Base HtH damage:
14P

Or an adept witha few points less in damage but -3 Armor...
BlackHat
No, AFAICT there is no reason to take quickdraw anymore - assuming you're willing to invest the 5 BP in a martial art, and the 2 BP in the maneuver (which, if you're an adept, you'll probably be wanting martial arts anyways).

Also, throw doesn't use your strength for damage. Damage is based on distance thrown, only. You DO, however, use your strength in the opposed strength+unarmed combat test to see how far the person is thrown - and since power throw says it is used when calculating range of thrown objects... it wouldn't be a complete stretch to ask your GM if it could apply to that test, which determines both range and damage.
Rotbart van Dainig
IIRC, Quickdraw has a lower Threshold.

But learning KravMaga and getting Ready Weapon as a Free Action is still better most of the time.
Moon-Hawk
If I were your GM I'd let you learn your martial art with karma as normal, get your quickdraw maneuver, and then let you reallocate that extra 0.5 power points. But I'm nice.

I would not let you apply your Power Throw adept power to the throw maneuver, as the throw maneuver does not use the Thrown Weapons skill, it uses the melee skill. Right? If I'm wrong about that, disregard.
So maybe I'm not all that nice, after all. wink.gif
BlackHat
Yeah, it uses unarmed-combat, instead of thrown weapons.
It trolls!
Throwing Weapons (People) sounds like an interesting specialization though...
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (It trolls! @ Feb 20 2008, 02:21 PM) *
Throwing Weapons (People) sounds like an interesting specialization though...

Yeah, but throwing someone doesn't really have anything to do with the Throwing skill. Unless you're talking about a Troll who throws babies. I guess then it would be small enough to be reasonably considered an improvised thrown weapon, especially with Missile Mastery. Hmmmmmmm, a troll with missile mastery and piles of power throw could throw a baby through a brick wall.
BlackHat
IIRC a metahuman body was an improvised thrown weapon in SR3... maybe not, though... it has grown foggy.
ixombie
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 20 2008, 02:25 PM) *
Yeah, but throwing someone doesn't really have anything to do with the Throwing skill. Unless you're talking about a Troll who throws babies. I guess then it would be small enough to be reasonably considered an improvised thrown weapon, especially with Missile Mastery. Hmmmmmmm, a troll with missile mastery and piles of power throw could throw a baby through a brick wall.


I think that would be one case where physics interposes. No matter how hard you throw a baby at a brick wall, the wall will be fine and the baby will not. They're just not hard enough. The same goes for fruit, or vegetables... Soft things can't punch holes in hard things. I won't allow it! And I'm usually very against realism based house rules. Certainly, if you had the power, you could chuck a piece of bread so that, mathematically, it would have enough force (mass x velocity) to punch through the entire earth. Except that the piece of bread would disentigrate and not even go anywhere. According to the most basic level of high school physics, a baby could be thrown through a brick wall, but according to a realistic view of the world, if you launched it that hard there probably wouldn't be enough baby left to even hit the wall with.

As for quickdraw... useless! Now and forevermore. Haw haw.

If you don't like that though, you could always houserule iajutsu and krav maga. Make people learn the iajutsu manuever or krav maga advantage for just one category of weapons. That way there would still be some reason to take the adept power. OR you could improve quickdraw somehow, like making it automatically successful. That way it wouldn't use a free action like krav maga does, and it also wouldn't require a test like iajutsu does. That's probably the better rule because it salvages the maneuver from utter crap without nerfing what's available for mundanes.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 20 2008, 03:35 PM) *
No matter how hard you throw a baby at a brick wall, the wall will be fine and the baby will not. They're just not hard enough.

I love Dumpshock.
Seriously, though, don't thwart my baby-chucking troll adept villain........help me think of a good villain name, instead. biggrin.gif
BRodda
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 20 2008, 03:35 PM) *
I think that would be one case where physics interposes. No matter how hard you throw a baby at a brick wall, the wall will be fine and the baby will not. They're just not hard enough. The same goes for fruit, or vegetables... Soft things can't punch holes in hard things. I won't allow it! And I'm usually very against realism based house rules. Certainly, if you had the power, you could chuck a piece of bread so that, mathematically, it would have enough force (mass x velocity) to punch through the entire earth. Except that the piece of bread would disentigrate and not even go anywhere. According to the most basic level of high school physics, a baby could be thrown through a brick wall, but according to a realistic view of the world, if you launched it that hard there probably wouldn't be enough baby left to even hit the wall with.


If you have Missle Mastery then the fruit would do damage, its the magic and not the mass or hardness. My adept tends to use playing cards that do 6P damage (STR 4 + 4 lev. Throw) without even using Incress STR. Of course if I REALY need to do some damage I just use my tomahawks (8P).

Of course without being an adept the fruit and baby just go splat. biggrin.gif
BlackHat
Of course, by the rules, if you threw a baby at a wall, whether it does any damage to a wall, or not, it won't do any damage to the baby.
masterofm
What about a dwarf chucking troll? I mean a dwarf is only a little bigger then a baby in the eyes of a troll. Just put a helmet on the dwarf and chuck him through a wall. grinbig.gif
jago668
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Feb 20 2008, 12:49 PM) *
Lets see...

Troll STR 10
Bone Augmentation 4
Muscle Augmentation 2
Thai Boxing X2
Karate X2
Martial Arts: +4
Str: +6
Bone augmentation: +3
Hardliner Gloves: +1

Total Base HtH damage:
14P

Or an adept witha few points less in damage but -3 Armor...



Yer doing it wrong.

Troll Strength 9 Magic 6 Critical Strike 6 Killing Hands Penetrating Strike 3 Improved Reflexes 2 Then any other 0.25 power you want
For qualities you take adept and 30 pts of Martial Arts and get the +6DV to unarmed.
Unarmed Strike 17P -3AP

EDIT

Adding in Alphaware Bone Density 4 then dropping Killing Hands the extra 0.25, and one point of Critical Strike. Will push you up to 19P -3AP (though you won't have the killing hands for hurting spirits, and other stuff).
Stahlseele
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Feb 20 2008, 08:55 PM) *
IIRC a metahuman body was an improvised thrown weapon in SR3... maybe not, though... it has grown foggy.

Canon Companion, i think page 16, the part about improvised thrown weapons
Weapon ------- Damage ------- Skill ------ reach/range -------- Comments
Metahuman - (Body+2)l stun* - thrown -- (STR-Body)/2m** - Both Hands used, minimum Strength=body***
*= Meaning a Metahuman Body is used as a thrown "weapon". "Weapon" and target both take damage based on the body of the other party, the body of the throwing person does not matter
**= to calculate the range/reach of the thrown "weapon" the "weapon"'s body is used
***= Body of the "weapon" again . . so a troll with STR of 16 COULD throw someone with a body of 1 a whole 8 meters . . let's say at somebody with a body of 4 . . the "weapon" would do 3l stun damage against the armor of the target and then the target gets to do his body roll to escape damage.
The TARGET would do 6l stun damage to the "weapon" against the weapons armor and then the "weapon" gets to roll body to avoid damage.
Now there's the knock-back when getting hit and a troll could knock somebody he hit with full strength away some meters . . so i don't really see the point aside from the knock-down probably being thrown upon the target and the element of surprise . . of maybe simply throwing the mage with some touch ranged spell at a target *g*
Jackstand
I personally think that the same sort of reason they suggest be applied to the use of the Martial Arts specialization also be used on Iaijutsu.
GryMor
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 20 2008, 03:35 PM) *
I think that would be one case where physics interposes. No matter how hard you throw a baby at a brick wall, the wall will be fine and the baby will not. They're just not hard enough. The same goes for fruit, or vegetables... Soft things can't punch holes in hard things.


I think you are wrong, I'm pretty sure a c-fractional baby throw will punch a hole in the wall, and if my energy calculations are correct, incinerate a multi block radius.

But whats that you say, a c-fractional baby throw is absurd? Well yes, it is, but it's the far end of the spectrum, and somewhere in between 1m/s and 30000 km/s there is a threshold where the soft baby goes through the wall. And I'm willing to be, order of magnitude wise, it's a lot closer to the slow end than the fast end.
Jackstand
I think we need to make a myth that a baby can be thrown through a wall, and then see about having it busted.
jago668
Well just get a big enough discarding sabot type thing, fit the baby in it, and shoot it out of a cannon. That seems like the best place to start.
ArkonC
That seems too "intelligent" a way to test it...
I'd start with a gigantic slingshot and go from there... smile.gif
masterofm
Your all fools of the highest caliber. Of course you could throw a baby through a wall... it just has to be dry wall, or a wall made out of glass. Maybe if overpopulation is a problem people could just chuck babies through windows with threats attached to them, like "It's yours now, have fun raising it for then next 17 years ha ha ha ha ha!" or possibly something more generic like a death threat cuz' nothing says insane like a death threat attached to a baby.

That is of course assuming that the glass is not bullet proof and the baby lands on something soft.
ixombie
QUOTE (GryMor @ Feb 20 2008, 06:29 PM) *
I think you are wrong, I'm pretty sure a c-fractional baby throw will punch a hole in the wall, and if my energy calculations are correct, incinerate a multi block radius.

But whats that you say, a c-fractional baby throw is absurd? Well yes, it is, but it's the far end of the spectrum, and somewhere in between 1m/s and 30000 km/s there is a threshold where the soft baby goes through the wall. And I'm willing to be, order of magnitude wise, it's a lot closer to the slow end than the fast end.


I guess I was thinking about accelerating the baby all at once to a velocity where it could punch through a wall. A baby wouldn't maintain its structural integrity if you did that, the acceleration would destroy it before it got to the wall.

Though I can't rule out something that accelerates the baby more gradually. Like if you had it on a rocket boster with a slow acceleration, you could get the baby to supersonic velocities without obliterating it with acceleration.

But I think I was right in the context of this discussion. We're not talking about firing a sabot-protected baby out of a cannon, or sticking a rocket booster onto a baby. We're talking about throwing the baby. If you could throw hard enough for something with the mass of a baby to go through a brick wall, you'd probably be throwing too hard for the baby not to disintegrate.
Abschalten
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 20 2008, 03:45 PM) *
Seriously, though, don't thwart my baby-chucking troll adept villain........help me think of a good villain name, instead. biggrin.gif


Just call him Chuck.

wobble.gif
Lyonheart
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 20 2008, 03:35 PM) *
I think that would be one case where physics interposes. No matter how hard you throw a baby at a brick wall, the wall will be fine and the baby will not. They're just not hard enough.


Not true, see the Mythbusters episode with the chicken cannon.
Feshy
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 20 2008, 07:37 PM) *
I guess I was thinking about accelerating the baby all at once to a velocity where it could punch through a wall. A baby wouldn't maintain its structural integrity if you did that, the acceleration would destroy it before it got to the wall.

Though I can't rule out something that accelerates the baby more gradually. Like if you had it on a rocket boster with a slow acceleration, you could get the baby to supersonic velocities without obliterating it with acceleration.

But I think I was right in the context of this discussion. We're not talking about firing a sabot-protected baby out of a cannon, or sticking a rocket booster onto a baby. We're talking about throwing the baby. If you could throw hard enough for something with the mass of a baby to go through a brick wall, you'd probably be throwing too hard for the baby not to disintegrate.


Probably. I figure a barely-supersonic baby is about the minimum you could expect to penetrate a reasonably reinforced wall. With a good throwing technique using the whole body, a troll is still probably stretching to get a 3m acceleration arc to reach a speed of around 1500 m/s.

d=at^2
v = at

so 3 = 1500t, or t = 0.002.

So a troll throwing a baby at supersonic speeds accelerates the baby at 750,000 m/s or ~76,500g. Unless my math is way off (hey, it has been a long time!) that's well beyond the structural capabilities of a baby.

Unless it has immunity to normal weapons or regeneration.

ixombie
QUOTE (Lyonheart @ Feb 20 2008, 09:43 PM) *
Not true, see the Mythbusters episode with the chicken cannon.


The velocities in the chicken cannon were not so extreme that a thawed chicken would be destroyed. And both the frozen and soft chicken were more than hard enough to go through the fragile canopies. The canopies exerted such piddly force back on the chickens that, thawed or frozne, the chickens went right through. We're talking about brick walls with the babies.
Feshy
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 20 2008, 12:21 PM) *
IIRC, Quickdraw has a lower Threshold.

But learning KravMaga and getting Ready Weapon as a Free Action is still better most of the time.


That depends. It costs far more karma to do, but it does get you out of making a test and it applies to any size weapon. If you're a high-agility character pulling weapons you're skilled at, that might not be the best tradeoff. On the other hand, if you're a troll with a polearm...
GryMor
QUOTE (Feshy @ Feb 20 2008, 10:49 PM) *
Probably. I figure a barely-supersonic baby is about the minimum you could expect to penetrate a reasonably reinforced wall. With a good throwing technique using the whole body, a troll is still probably stretching to get a 3m acceleration arc to reach a speed of around 1500 m/s.



Your math was close...
d = 0.5 a t^2
v = a t
a = 0.5 v^2/d

Your target velocity was a wee bit high...
1500 m/s is mach 4.4

Your conclusion holds.
350 m/s dv over 3 meters is an acceleration of approximately 2000 gs

I STILL think the baby is going to punch through the wall, but the wall won't hurt the baby in so much as the throw already pulped the kid.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 20 2008, 10:07 PM) *
The velocities in the chicken cannon were not so extreme that a thawed chicken would be destroyed. And both the frozen and soft chicken were more than hard enough to go through the fragile canopies. The canopies exerted such piddly force back on the chickens that, thawed or frozne, the chickens went right through. We're talking about brick walls with the babies.

Not just the canopies, though. remember, the "test shot" with the chicken not only went through the canopy, it went through a Lexan barrier.
Feshy
QUOTE (GryMor @ Feb 20 2008, 10:18 PM) *
Your math was close...
d = 0.5 a t^2
v = a t
a = 0.5 v^2/d

Your target velocity was a wee bit high...
1500 m/s is mach 4.4

Your conclusion holds.
350 m/s dv over 3 meters is an acceleration of approximately 2000 gs

I STILL think the baby is going to punch through the wall, but the wall won't hurt the baby in so much as the throw already pulped the kid.


Oops. That'll teach me to grab the first number that shows up when I google, rather than reading to see if it is the right number.

That speed yeilds a value of about 2Mj of energy on impact; about the same as a pound of high explosives. According to Arsenal's table, that's enough to breach an "average" material, but probably only a very small hole in a "heavy" material like I'd imagine a solid wall would be. It might just barely be enough to fit a baby through.

Edit:

Interestingly, according to Wikipedia, that acceleration is about an order of magnitude higher than the record survivable acceleration. That might or might not leave the baby "pulped" as you say.

Maybe if the troll used a rugby stick? You'd probably double the distance... and have a cup-shaped bit just in case th baby pulped anyway...
Daier Mune
actualy, i'd say that if an adept took quickdraw *and* iajitsu, the guy could probably "whip it out" without even needing to make a test. (or at least a threshold of 1)
Zuzuzu
About increasing the acceleration arc - remember, it is not directly tied to arm length or anything. Troll could be using a technique similar to olympic hammer throwing - spinning around until the speed is satisfactory, then releasing.
KCKitsune
My God, I don't believe that I just witnessed a discussion about using a BABY as a improvised weapon! wobble.gif Then the discussion went to the BABY's structual integrity... rotfl.gif You people are sick... just sick I tell you! Anyways, what would a baby thrown by said troll do to a Lone Star police cruiser? grinbig.gif
ixombie
You think we're sick? Go read the thread called Mai Chan's daily life, and then come back and apologize.
DocTaotsu
Why has no one suggested the obvious.

Throw a troll baby, bonus to body, +1 armor.

Steel jacketed troll babies, the next best thing to APDS.
cx2
Laughing so hard I cried right now.
DocTaotsu
Our job here is done folks, pack up those SJTB and lets get out of here.
Zuzuzu
QUOTE
what would a baby thrown by said troll do to a Lone Star police cruiser?

This actual phrase caught my imagination, which came up with this picture. Actual Lone Star cruiser will hardly look like this exact vehicle, but the idea holds.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Zuzuzu @ Feb 21 2008, 11:10 AM) *
This actual phrase caught my imagination, which came up with this picture. Actual Lone Star cruiser will hardly look like this exact vehicle, but the idea holds.

love.gif love.gif love.gif love.gif love.gif love.gif love.gif love.gif
Awesome.
mfb
Zuzuzu, you have won the Internet.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Zuzuzu @ Feb 21 2008, 05:10 PM) *
This actual phrase caught my imagination, which came up with this picture. Actual Lone Star cruiser will hardly look like this exact vehicle, but the idea holds.

i feel the need to use the motivational posters tool to write the text:
SHADOWRUN: kinda like this
onto this very picture . . and i will frigging do so once i get home from work!
Stahlseele
as i threatened:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2125/228273...7653040bc_o.jpg
and because i could not help myself(or do the whole image at once)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2029/228194...4b65afc9d_o.jpg
Ryu
QUOTE (Zuzuzu @ Feb 21 2008, 05:10 PM) *
This actual phrase caught my imagination, which came up with this picture. Actual Lone Star cruiser will hardly look like this exact vehicle, but the idea holds.


Thats great! Do you do such things often?
Stahlseele
with quality like that on such short notice he/she/it(come on, with that name, it could be everything <.<) bloody well should! *g*
Dantic
QUOTE (Zuzuzu @ Feb 21 2008, 11:10 AM) *
This actual phrase caught my imagination, which came up with this picture. Actual Lone Star cruiser will hardly look like this exact vehicle, but the idea holds.


Excelent Artwork!!! devil.gif
Zuzuzu
Thanks everyone smile.gif.

About doing such things often - well, vivid ideas for pix don't come up all the time, plus i'm just too damn lazy, but Shadowrun is rather rich with tasty visual concepts so reading these forums will likely spawn few more graphic ideas.
Fortune
QUOTE (Zuzuzu @ Feb 22 2008, 10:42 AM) *
About doing such things often - well, vivid ideas for pix don't come up all the time, plus i'm just too damn lazy, but Shadowrun is rather rich with tasty visual concepts so reading these forums will likely spawn few more graphic ideas.


Guaranteed!

Welcome to Dumpshock.

I'm afraid to say that you just might have, with that excellent introduction, set yourself up for an influx of pic requests. biggrin.gif
DocTaotsu
Way to introduce yourself to Dumpshock. That's clearly one of my favorite SR related things ever.

KCKitsune
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 21 2008, 06:37 AM) *
You think we're sick? Go read the thread called Mai Chan's daily life, and then come back and apologize.


I did... and that was very disturbing. This was sick in a funny way, that was just... sad.

Oh, and Zuzuzu, that was very nicely done... though that baby was way too intact... biggrin.gif
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