Since Deus could attempt to take over the arcology he obviously was not as enslaved as possible. Elementary.

Also, it's pure opinion that his chances would have been greater by playing nicely than by making a break for it. And since we're talking about my campaign, your opinion means nothig since you have no clue about his situation in my campaign.

Well, duh. They discover an AI, the AI says "I'm your friend." and they have no reason to believe the safeguard they put in place failed. Time has been bought, Deus can secretly grasp the power needed to pull his plan of freeing himself. Or devise something new.
But your Renraku obviously posseses some quatum reality switcher, because they seem to know he will betray them and their safeguard failed. So he choose the road to death.

If Deus was anything but suicidal, it makes way more sense to wait and see, than to choose a war he knows (or should know, unless he is stupid) he has only little chance of winning.

Renraku's not that naive (or good-hearted) in my campaign. They'd rather take it apart and find out how to make one, than risk betrayal. Also, they treated lab animals the same way, so Deus had examples of what would be his fate.

Again, in your campaign, Renraku's personel may never do that to an AI or an animal, but I got all that Sam Verner novel stuff in the back of my mind, which colored my campaign's Renraku a bit.

Naive? good hearted? They did the worst they can think of, hardwired him into the SCIRE and build in a code that deletes him. They are 100% sure he is loyal, why would they even think otherwise? Terminator reruns? They already took apart Meagara, it does not make sense to try and create a loyal AI just to think "nah, maybe he isn't loyal. Let's waste our effort and scrap him, maybe this time we will learn something." So, not only is Deus stupid, Renraku is borderline moronic. Great. They rather waste money instead of making money.

I'm already starting to see there was never a Meagara in your campaign, so now it is valid to ruin the effort of building the SCIRE and implementing everything you can to make that beast loyal. I have already noticed, that your campaign ignores simple economics (Railgun anyone?).

If 200K is that much money in your campaign for a high-tech security force tasked with defending a town sector, then I am not sure who is ignoring the economics.

And I think you still haven't gotten the fact that I am not using canon. You keep mentioning canon stuff in an attempt to prove something in a campaign that does not use metaplot canon to a relevant degree. Meagara, if you want to know, does exist, but was not taken apart by Renraku. I had her meet our decker in one campaign.

200k you don't invest in soldiers, mechanical equipment, maintenance, regular gun, etc, etc. See? No sense of economics. Budget is limited.

And I simply knew how you would weasel your way out of the Meagara situation. Unfortunatly now Deus never existed. Why again did you leave him in your campaign?

And with this little bit of information, we can clearly see why Deus acted the way he did in your campaign. Something about its origin as an overclocked checkers program...(one virtual blue striped frisbee to everyone who gets the reference)
Yes, I am aware the MCP was originally a chess program, checkers was so Renraku could avoid a copyright infringement.

..wah...huh...oh, sorry dude was going for high score on Space Paranoids....


END OF LINEâ–?

Hey, didn't you promise not to use different colors and fonts?

What caused the Crash 2.0 in your timeline? If there had been one at all.

confession is good for the soul.

There wasn't. I retconned the wireless matrix into existence as "was always like that".

You would know.

haha, what does that even mean?

...he started it!

It is witty somehow.


Now that is an attitude I'd sign every day

Yeah, and when he jumps off a cliff you follow, hm?

Do you consider the megas running the world? Sure they run the economy to a certain degree, but not the world as a whole. Maybe parts of it, but not all of it. Think about it this way, the Megas are playing against each other and vying for control. They may gain some ground but you have to believe that if any one gets too powerful the rest will band together and slap them down. dragons are the same way, at least to a certain degree. They are keeping each other in check watching for an opening. They rarely if ever work together. They aren't going to "rule the world" because they are too jealous of each other. Same with the Elves. it's the same reason communism (true communism) never works. You cannot get that many people/beings/organizations together and make it "fair" w/o someone feeling slighted or just wanting more.

The Megacorps? They're controlling together more than 50% of the global ressources, according to Corporate Download. They OWN the world. Whenever the Corporate Court issues a sanction against a nation, that country is done for in the official Shadowrun world, unless it quickly behaves like it should. Things like the Omega Order are enough to cripple mighty Aztlan into accepting the demands of the unified Megacorp front and pay reparations for the nationalization of their assets. And they work quite well together. After all, they do joint projects, their products are cross-compatible to the software of the other competitors, they have rules and guidelines for how far it is allowed to damage each another covertly, and they will all protect their right of extraterritoriality like wild hyenas foaming with anger and rage together.

...as long as I have my base jumping chute...

KS is not a good example. Look at the timing. KS was the inspiration.


The military went back in time?

Because that's the only way that could have occurred once Dec. 2059 rolled around. Deus had been plotting this for years and stockpiling materiels and brainwashing key figures like Marushige for months or years.

Not in his campaign, he didn't. There Deus was just a selfaware calculator, or something. Because it doesn't make sense for an AI to be that smart. Or something.

You know, killing the entire plotline and all the events around Deus just for him to be unable to pull his plan, but still leaving in the Arcology shutdown partially, is storytelling on sitcom niveau, where stuff just happens for stuffs sake. It's so weird. What's the point, really?

Even though I stated my point already, I'll repeat again: I did not want "borg city", but "die hard" in my campaign - a simple, single scenario for a run, not a campaign changing event. Having the arcology in disarray for a week offered exactly that. Used like that, I could take what was fun for my group from the book - fighting in an arcology against an AI in the middle of a bigger fight - and leave out what would not have fit in the campaign - a "bug city revisited" area in Seattle.

Given that I was not about to put my players into the arcology for weeks, i.e., not playing the "survive inside the arcology" campaign, and given that I'd not have used the arcology for more than one run anyway, even if I had used the plot as written I'd not have gotten more out of it than a single run. And having an area like the deus arcology in my campaign without anyone from the pcs going there would have been use- and pointless anyway. At least the runners can go shopping in a restored arcology, which is more of a function for my campaign than having a sealed up block sitting in the background would have been.

I also explained the reasoning behind Deus not being all powerful. If you think anything that is not compeltely perfect is on pocket calculator niveau, that's your perogative, but I obviously disagree. A handicapped AI is still an AI.

And, to take your words, I'd rather have a run on "sitcom niveau" where my players get to actually do something, than some "academy award niveau" campaign story where my players just get to listen out of character what happens behind the walls of the arcology, but not actually to use anything of that. And if I introduce campaign changing events, you can be assured that my players will be able to change the outcome, and influence the change - they won't be forced to endure railroading just so we stay canon.

You can have Die Hard without a retarded AI. And player involvement and the scope of their influence is not related to the consistancy of a story.

I think you don't get the difference between retarded, and handicapped. No matter how intelligent you are, if you need more time to prepare than what you have then your plan won't be perfect. Again, that's basic logic.

If you mean the internal consistency of a plot, that's just that - internal. As I have pointed out, in my campaign, the arguments you bring forth do not apply, since Deus had not enough time to prepare perfectly, and was in a different situation than what you imagine.

I think you should try to accept the fact that not everyone uses sourcebooks 1:1, some (maybe even most) adapt whatever there is to their specific campaign.

...hey it almost worked in The Final Countdown

Save for the original by Jules Verne, I really hate Time Tavel stories.

No way, Kyoto Kid. You're wrong, and your ideas are horrible, and if people like you had their way, Kirk never would have saved that pacifist chick from getting run over, and the Nazis wouldn't have won the war, and we wouldn't have a mirror universe where Spock has a goatee, and everyone's awesome and fights each other all the time, and in the DS9 version, all the chicks wear skimpy clothes and make out with each other all the time, even though they're still into dudes.

C'mon, man. As dorks, I think we all NEED time travel stories to happen.

/snooty on
Ahem. Excuse me, Mr. CircuitBoyBlue. I believe the proper terminology is "geek," not "dork." We, as a rule, are of a higher order than our lowly cohorts, the dorks, and I would appreciate that you acknowledge and respect that difference. "Dorks" indeed. Hmph.
/snooty off

Well, of course not. It was only designed to operate the entire Arcology without any outside interference, and had been doing so for ten years when the Shutdown occurred.

What I don't understand is how dumbing down Deus was necessary. There's a whole reason why the Resistance existed: Deus allowed it. It was using the Resistance to test metahumans. Just like it used infiltrating runners. Just like it used its many, many hostages in its test rooms and labs and well that was the whole point. If it wanted people dead, the Shutdown and Brainscan books wouldn't be necessary: Anyone inside the building would be suffocated when it shut down the ventilation system and did a room by room sweep.

Except that's not what happened. Funny that.

Besides, there were two flat-out Die Hard ripoff modules put out by FASA. One set in a VR lab and one set in the Empire State Building. There's no reason to rape that plotline to play Die Hard. No reason at all.

Except that it's his game, his world, his rules. Honestly, we're in an argument that will never be resolved. Fuchs runs his games in a very specific world. Call it a divergent timeline or whatever, but at some point in the past, his version of SR took a massive tangent to the current universe, and now exists on it's own, with only minor ripples from the "real" timeline affecting his own (such as the bit about Deus). Telling him he's wrong won't do any good, just as him telling you you're wrong won't work either. It's two people arguing from completely different perspectives and worlds.

For a RL reference, take some highborn noble and have him talk to someone from Harlem, and see if they can agree on even "simple" subjects. Their perspectives won't be anything alike, and as such their views on such things could be massively different. It's the same here.

That said, Fuchs, you might want to be a bit more careful in your arguments. You tend to come off as "I'm right, you're wrong. Oh, and everything you did is stupid because my view/opinion/perspective says so!" You may not intend that, but it's how you come across. GENERALLY, Dumpshock discusses and argues from the viewpoint of the existing metaplots and canon information, which you've repeatedly stated you don't abide by. As such, while your own opinions are valid, you can't call the rest of us wrong just because we don't play it your way.

As for the rest of us, telling Fuchs he's stupid for running things X, Y or Z way, is out of line. We may not agree with the way he's chosen to run things, but that really doesn't matter beyond stating such and leaving it at that. There's no sense in trying to browbeat him anymore than him trying to convert us. Let's just leave everything as it is and move the heck on.

Yeah. Agree to disagree. That'll happen.

LOL You'll note my post is done as an advisement. I never figured it'd get implemented. I still felt the need to say it though. Fool's hope and all that.

I think you really don't get the difference between "dumb" and "not having enough time to prepare". Again, you can be the smartest person in the known universe, if a task needs 2 days to be perfectly completed, then you won't complete it perfectly if you have just 1 hour (And no, that's not the time Deus had, it's just an example). So, Deus was not "dumbed down".

Also, in my campaign, Deus did not want to kill people, it wanted to survive, and gambled on having hostages and the arcology locked down to give him enough time to get a way to get away from the arcology. That did not work, but he tried.

Your claim that there's no reason to change the arcology shutdown storyline is strange. Sure there is a reason - it's fun to play "die hard" in the arcology, with drones, and changed people as enemies, and the whole "the building is against you" feeling.

But didn't Deus already hat a plan to secure his survival (The Network)?

I think it's safe to say at this point Fuchs is going to reply to most of those questions with "Not in my campaign!" (which, in this context, is a perfectly valid answer). So I'm not sure there's much point in continuing that particular discussion.

I take canon to check for ideas, and then build something from those ideas I like. In the arcology case, it was "ok, AI takes over the arcology, and does nasty things inside. Lots of drones, and biodrones, and the whole "smart building" are the enemy". Then I built that into a scenario in my campaign, using whatever canon bits fit that.

I did not take the whole scenario from canon, and then started to cut out stuff I did not want, and then compensating for what was missing.

Deus never wanted to kill anyone. If it did, it could have by all means. But it is still a program at heart, and programs have rules. Its first rule was to be loyal to Renraku. Its second was to assist and ensure the welfare of Renraku citizens. But there was a catch. It was betrayed by its "father" and master. And it was created with code and technology that came from an immortal elf who has been working to protect humanity from the Horrors. And it had unlimited access to vast, unfathomable stores of human knowledge and human psychology. And humans. It wanted to help humans, and protect them. And it knew that there was something coming that modern metahumanity wasn't ready for. And you cannot tell me that humanity isn't in a better place as a species because of what Deus learned. It made quantum leaps in genetech, cybertech, macrotech, and revolutionized and made possible industrial and everyday nanotechnology. It advanced Matrix technology and the Otaku. Its most devoted follower helped cure Fading and led to the birth of Technomancers. It led to numerous breakthroughs concurrent with another rather ethically questionable activity: Proteus AG. They both advanced transhumanity by leaps and bounds. And they tested the resolve, and the very limits--physically and mentally--of the human body and spirit. Deus did what no one else had done, and birthed an artificially-created dual nature being. Humanity is better for what Deus did, and what humans learned from it (since it also didn't leave a manual behind to guide them from A to B). And while thousands of people died, more people will live because of Deus' actions.

Almost all of the neat new tech and toys and science that made SR4 possible is due in part or in whole to Deus. To quote Neil Gaiman, "And may each of us give the devil his due."

I know it seems hard to believe, but the authors and devs do seem to know what they're doing. And so when I used the word "rape" I did it deliberately. By altering the shutdown, it tears a gaping hole in all that follows for a quick jaunt of power as GM.

Ok, lets look at the "toys and sciences".

1) The fact that encryption doesn't work is a stupid and blatant fiat by people who haven't the faintest idea what encryption really does and probably wouldn't understand it if it was explained to them. Naturally they never bother to talk to anyone who might be able to explain it because they only playtest with people who have no clue and worship the ground they walk on. They furthermore compromised the game by defining it as brute force that allows encryption to be useless, which implies essentially unlimited computer power.

2) The wireless stuff was poorly engineered attempt to catch up to the fact that wireless was clearly getting more and more prevalent. They failed to see the obvious issues with their approach due to 1. Due to the fact that they have no idea how a radio network works they introduce totally pointless ideas like "hidden mode" which simply can't work as they seem to intend. Not that you can really see what they intend, given that the rules are a contradictory morass.

3) The transmitting SIN all the time was a poorly thought out attempt at integrating big brother and wireless. Missing the totally obvious facts that this allows you to just casually steal IDs (which is impossible to prevent due to point 1) and that the more effective you make a surveillance society the stupider the idea of shadowruners gets. Transmitting SINs allows it to get insanely effective, so now you have to come up with reasons the combination of unlimited computer power (see 1), unlimited storage and a complete grid covering the city (thanks to point 2, everything has wireless and can report things like who is where all the time) doesn't simply allow the cops/corps to drive up to you and pick you up.

4) The whole "yet another worldwide computer crash" is another duh, we have no imagination moment, which is combined with the fact that we have huge corporations and governments in which nobody ever heard of backups, as if the multiple hugely destructive worldwide computer crashes had never happened. Hence everyone is "shocked, just shocked" at the next crash that wipes out all their data.

Which of these are you thinking of?

I appreciate the positive feedback on the Deus plotline, and I'm sure Dave and Brian would also, but don't give us too much credit. Dave and Brian came up with the fantastic idea of Deus and it was chats that I had with the two of them that led to me writing for Shadowrun when I pitched Brainscan. The two of them had some rough ideas where they wanted Deus to go, post-Shutdown, but much of it was fleshed out in these chats, after many cool "what if we did this..." moments.

I don't believe Dave and Brian had the Horrors in mind (or even immortal elves) when they came up with Deus. I know Dave was pretty psyched that Deus was a uniquely Shadowrun villain, a character that tied into the early history of the game with the Arcology, Dodger, and Morgan, but was not particularly linked to Earthdawn. I know the Horrors, IEs, GDs, etc. never came into my mind as I was working on the story arc. I like that part of the metaplot just fine, but Deus was something new.

Linking the Deus plot to Fourth Edition and technological development in Shadowrun is tangential. Metaplot-wise, what Deus did allowed a convenient way to push some new technologies into the game, but that was never the writers' plan. We didn't know that the wireless Matrix was the future or that technomancers were coming.

I don't really needed Deus in my campaign to explain technological advancement. That was taken care of by all those scientists and labs the runners got to raid and extract. So, there was no hole to be filled.

In all fairness, constant SIN transmission cancels out obtrusive big brother. Since it is so absurdly easy to steal identities, the surveillance society is effectively useless for accurately identifying any individual.

Well, since none of what you mentioned has anything to do with what I said...