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Dun Fe'Ran
Sorry- I looked everywhere and my incompetence has rendered me unable to find the rules for the costs and stuff for dikoting blades. where do i find these rules? I wanna dikote my katana! indifferent.gif
Ol' Scratch
It's in the Chemistry chapter of Man & Machine. Just look in the index for the page number.
theodorik
Has this come up in anyone elses games? Dikoting seems uber... who WOULDN'T want it?

theo
Ol' Scratch
The characters who struggle just to make the next payment on their Low Lifestyle.
Tziluthi
Really, dikoting anything larger than a knife is prohibatively expensive for any character that starts off with resources C or less (or equivalent).

On that note, has anyone ever made a chart that gives the general surface area of weapons and blades?
Raptor1033
remember, the process for dikoting requires the object to be in a chamber, so you'll have to pay for the cost of the tang (that's the part that the handle is built around, right?) as well as the blade.
Diesel
QUOTE (theodorik @ Dec 6 2003, 09:35 PM)
Dikoting seems uber... who WOULDN'T want it?

The poor, the stupid, the "sacred blade" type ninja fools, and anyone who kills people with something made of wood and / or involving gunpowder.

A lot of people!
Fresno Bob
Don't forget the people who don't kill anyone at all!
Kagetenshi
The people who want to be able to lose a knife now and then without losing a 1,000+ investment.

~J
Tanka
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The people who want to be able to lose a knife now and then without losing a 1,000+ investment.

~J

And having to pay a ridiculous street index...
Cray74
QUOTE (tanka)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 7 2003, 04:45 AM)
The people who want to be able to lose a knife now and then without losing a 1,000+ investment.

~J

And having to pay a ridiculous street index...

Considering the length of time involved in using the canon dikoted process (like less than a micron per hour; it's been surpassed by faster deposition methods in RL), and the expense of the equipment, if you were getting dikoting through "non-standard" channels, anyone who let your equipment into the factory to disrupt processing schedules...

No, the street index is not ridiculous. It's appropriate for the process involved.

However, the base price is too high. Per square meter, not per 100cm^2, would be more reasonable.
Moon-Hawk
Yes, it is uber. It's really, really cool. It gives huge game-mechanical advantages to bladed weapons. The only reason that it isn't slathered all over everything is the extreme cost. I've seen a few instances on these boards where people don't understand the relation between m^2 and cm^2. To di-kote a square meter, that is 100 times the per 100cm^2 cost. 100,000 nuyen.gif for a dikoted square meter. Yikes. I'll admit that that seems a bit excessive, but I think that changing the price to per square meter is way too lenient. I tried that once. The players ended up di-koting their car keys. Seriously. Since it has a minimum price, if they ever weren't at the maximum, they'd start throwing whatever they could find in the chamber. It was sad. Di-koted armor became the standard. Another one calculated the cost to di-kote his van. HIS FRAGGIN VAN! He wanted to take it apart and "kote" each piece of body armor individually. Crazy bastard. That prompted me to change the cost back, and then promptly cause the characters too all lose their car keys. biggrin.gif I let them keep the di-koted weapons. It was also the only time I bothered to invoke the armor degradation rules.
So anyway, if you feel that di-kote is too expensive, cut the cost by a factor of 10, but if you cut it down by 100, your characters will start doing really crazy things.

edit: I'm not talking about you Cray, I know you understand the metric system, I just think that's a bit too lenient.
nezumi
It's only a problem when they start asking about dikoting gel rounds ; P
Tanka
Wouldn't the gel melt? (I know, sarcasm, quiet.)

You also have to remind them that some things just can't be dikoted. The regular armor they were dikoting wouldn't survive the process. The cloth would be gone, leaving just a few plates that you might be able to shove back in some new cloth.
Cray74
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
but I think that changing the price to per square meter is way too lenient.  I tried that once.  The players ended up di-koting their car keys.  Seriously.

I don't actually see a problem with that. Today's real life examples of artificial diamond end up on normal hardware sawblades, drill bits, and other common items. Why not dikote the keys? It'll be an interesting conversation piece at parties.

"Hey, you want to key a car? I got just the keys for the job..."

QUOTE
  Di-koted armor became the standard.  Another one calculated the cost to di-kote his van.  HIS FRAGGIN VAN!


I'd've told him "No," because the car's body panels were too large for the chamber. If he wanted to dikote some bearings or the crankshaft, that's another matter.

QUOTE
He wanted to take it apart and "kote" each piece of body armor individually.  Crazy bastard.


If it is was military grade armor, I'd've said "sure." If it was almost any other type of armor, I would've said, "No," because the dikoting process incinerates polymers (which is what most modern body armor is made of). Sticking a big chunk of plastic in the dikoting chamber would probably ruin the chamber, too, or require it get sent back to the factory to clean the centimeter-thick layer of soot out of everything. Gawd, a turbomolecular pump sucking on burning plastic...

But hindsight is 20/20, and armchair GMs like me are a dime a dozen.

QUOTE
So anyway, if you feel that di-kote is too expensive, cut the cost by a factor of 10, but if you cut it down by 100, your characters will start doing really crazy things.


Not if their GM is a materials engineer. wink.gif

Street index and availability makes it hard to find dikoting shops. Convincing a legit dikoting shop tech to stick illegal milgrade armor or weaponry in a dikoting chamber is hard and dangerous. ("Dikote this blood-stained combat axe with the kill marks scratched into the haft? Sure, 1000 nuyen, no problem. Come back in 18 hours and it'll be done. Now, shoo, while I call the poli-...er, call up the program for the chamber.") Few items are suited for dikoting. Cost, IMO, is not needed for controlling dikoting.
Tanka
Character idea: Dikoter. Think of the money you'd make...

However... Think of the money you'd need to get all the stuff.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Cray74)
QUOTE
  Di-koted armor became the standard.  Another one calculated the cost to di-kote his van.  HIS FRAGGIN VAN!


I'd've told him "No," because the car's body panels were too large for the chamber. If he wanted to dikote some bearings or the crankshaft, that's another matter.

The rules state that a dikoted vehicle exterior adds one to the body of the vehicle. If you know where to look, you can probably find a dikote chamber large enough to dikote the outside surface of a citymaster at once. Such a large chamber would probably be intended for use dikoting massive industrial components, but it is not irrational to suggest they exist and would be willing to do personal requests when not busy for a price.

[not quite related rant]
There had been people complaining that dikote does not behave much like current day dimond coatings. A number of years ago I saw a bit on the Discovery channel about a process that had about the exact observed results as dikote is supposed to but with less damage to fragile materials. Over the course of a day or two, the objects would be slowly frozen to around the temperature of liquid nitrogen and then slowly warmed. The interatomic pattern of the materials would adjust slightly to become a more perfect support of the object's whole shape. Knives stayed sharper longer, cloth was harder to tear, engine parts were smoother and caused less friction.
[/rant]
BaronJ
Honestly, Dikote is a bit overrated. Yea, it makes your knife as useful as your gun... but when you've just got a gun, the fact that you don't know the jackpoint from your hoop doesn't matter (too much).

In melee, if you don't know what you're doing, you'll get your hoop handed to you on a dikoted platter. I've seen a character with 5 in Edged fillet a guard who all kinds of ballistic armour and a BFG, with a plain-old knife. The problem with the prevalence of technology is that your average player isn't going to give there characters a form of melee skill, wether it's unarmed or just edged. So this means that the instant someone closes with them, they're hosed because they're forced to default to a attribute: TN 6, minimum.

Big Gun, shoot from far off. Little knife, slip between armour plates and through heart. Your choice, but with a middling skill in melee combat, a knife is just as deadly as a gun.

Granted, I am biased cyber.gif, what with realising the true power of a PhysAd, or a pretty juiced sam
Game2BHappy
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
A number of years ago I saw a bit on the Discovery channel about a process that had about the exact observed results as dikote is supposed to but with less damage to fragile materials.  Over the course of a day or two, the objects would be slowly frozen to around the temperature of liquid nitrogen and then slowly warmed.  The interatomic pattern of the materials would adjust slightly to become a more perfect support of the object's whole shape.  Knives stayed sharper longer, cloth was harder to tear, engine parts were smoother and caused less friction.

I don't know about cloth, but I've always wanted to send a few of my target barrels to this place to go through the cryo treatment. The section on gun barrel treatments is here.

[edit]looks like it had a spot on the Discovery Channel (originally in '96), so it might have been what you saw[/edit]
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Game2BHappy @ Dec 8 2003, 01:40 PM)
I don't know about cloth,

Your site looks much like what I saw. It may not have been any cloth (cells of any type would die in the process, organic fiber may be damaged as well) but inorganic fibers would likely be strengthened.
CanvasBack
QUOTE (Cray74)
However, the base price is too high. Per square meter, not per 100cm^2, would be more reasonable.

A square meter is 100cm on each of its sides.

Does this not mean that 1 m^2 = 100cm^2?


Just curious. biggrin.gif
Austere Emancipator
No. 100cm x 100cm = 10000cm^2 = 1m x 1m = 1m^2.
Kagetenshi
100 square centimeters=1cm^2*100, not (100cm)^2.

~J
Tanka
Oh God! The equations are hurting me!

Ramen time.
CanvasBack
Oh, my bad.

100cm^2 = 10cm x 10cm

That still seems pretty reasonable to me, considering what it can do for you.
HMHVV Hunter
Someone asked earlier if there's some kind of surface area calculator for this stuff. I mean, I don't know how much surface area a sword blade has; I don't have one to reference.

If not, than can anyone give some kind of point of reference as to how much certain items would cost to have dikoted? I'm interested in how much a katana meant to be used by a human would cost to have dikoted.
Kurukami
Well, I figure that a katana meant for a human would probably have a blade somewhere near a meter long, and be 3 to 4 cm across. That would give you a surface area of around 600 to 800 square centimeters.

Assuming the base cost is 1,000 nuyen.gif per 100 square centimeters, you'd end up with a final cost of +6,000 - 8,000 nuyen.gif . Unless I've slipped a decimal place somewhere?
Zazen
For some reason I use a VHS cassette tape for real-world comparisons whenever possible. The front of a VHS cassette tape is about 200 square centimeters, which would cost 2,000 to dikote.

A VHS cassette tape is also about the same volume of a kilogram of C4.
Shockwave_IIc
The front or the top?

Cos the front is what 2.5cm X 15cm so thats what what? 37.5 cm2?

The top being say 9cm (by the way this is guess work) X 15 is what 120cm2.

cause i could be missing something. (or drunk)
Game2BHappy
I just checked the largest side (I guess that would be top not front) of a VHS tape and got 188 cm2 so Zazen's estimate a pretty good one.

Entire outside of a 12oz (355mL) soda can about 265 cm2

Each side of a CD is about 51 cm2
phelious fogg
If I Dikote my Old AOL cd's can I use them as flying death frisbee's?
Dende
Hell, if you take Missile Mastery as an adept you can use AOL CDs as lethal weapons of 5 or 6M physical without dikoting...(assuming a starting str of 5 or 6)

Dikoting would just make them sicker, and more reusable...
Game2BHappy
Flying Death Frisbee's for ya! smile.gif

[edit] Here's the direct link to his CD launching video.[/edit]
Cray74
QUOTE (phelious fogg)
If I Dikote my Old AOL cd's can I use them as flying death frisbee's?

While that generates an amusing image, the CDs would be reduced to soot in the dikoting chamber.
Cochise
Flying cds of death ... *hmm*

All I can say there:
Alien Drugdealer: I come in peace
Good Cop: Then you go in pieces, assh*le
Cray74
QUOTE (Cochise)
Flying cds of death ... *hmm*

All I can say there:
Alien Drugdealer: I come in peace
Good Cop: Then you go in pieces, assh*le

I have the misfortune of understanding that reference because I saw that movie in the theater.
Cochise
QUOTE (Cray74)
I have the misfortune of understanding that reference because I saw that movie in the theater.

biggrin.gif ... I have heard worse judgements than "misfortune" whenever people talk about films with Dolph Lundgren ...
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