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Screamin Demon
A recent post on a thread about magic and cybernetics has caused me to wonder what counts as natural vision for Mages.

Vision enhancement Goggles?
Does AR count?

If cybereyes count as natural vision, does that give the mage los through any point the cyber eyes are looking from (Like wirelessly connected to the camera down the hall?

I thought it was all about optic fibers and mirror tricks... Where is the line drawn?
Adarael
Any line of sight which is:
1) Established via one's natural eyes;
2) Established via cybereyes that you have paid essence for and are still within the body. I.E. no eyeball drones.
3) Either of the above, magnified by purely optical means such as glass lenses. I.E. not digitally processed.

Vision enhancement goggles enhance vision using digital signal processing, so probably are out. Depends on if the GM says the enhancements are displayed on clear glass or if the entire shades are blurred via digital info.
AR does not count under any circumstances.

Wirelessly connecting to a camera will not establish Line of Sight between the mage and the target - it will establish LoS between the camera and the target. What's more, the signal (both in the camera and from camera to mage) is most certainly digital (not analog) information.
Screamin Demon
So AR lockon stuff to point out where someone is with a handy indicator or digital tracing won't help the mage see the person? Even if the image that is being highlighted and automatically zoomed in on and focused by your essence paid for cybereyes?
Adarael
Up to your GM. I would rule yes, since there's no way to 'enhance' what you're seeing without digital signal processing. At the very least, I would negate the vision enhancement bonus for perception tests to target with spells.
sunnyside
Basically consider that the actual photons from whatever it is have to be hitting the mages eyes/cybereyes in their head somehow.

So fibre optic cables work because they just channel the photons. Ditto a telescope. Though when doing this stuff it's custimary to give some penalty.



KCKitsune
QUOTE (Adarael @ Apr 15 2008, 03:20 AM) *
Up to your GM. I would rule yes, since there's no way to 'enhance' what you're seeing without digital signal processing. At the very least, I would negate the vision enhancement bonus for perception tests to target with spells.


Actually, since vision enhancement is in the eyes and ANYTHING in the eyes counts for LoS purposes of targeting a spell then it should work. The problem comes when you try to cyberware ultrasound system &/or Radar sensor. Since they're not in the eye they don't count.
Screamin Demon
Agreed on the goggle rule. There isn't really any way to both enhance your vision and maintain the photon stream coherency. Except of course for magnification through conventional lenses.

I feel very inclined to home-rule that a mage with cyber-eyes is seeing everything digitally processed and cannot target spells with vision. It seems the most logical place to draw the line for me. Would I be mistaken in doing so, do you think?
I feel to do otherwise opens the door to a lot of gray areas. Mages don't deserve vision enhancements anyway. Let em squint through heavy smoke/rain like everyone else.

[edit]And not to add to an already full plate, but what about bioware? I don't have a problem with magic going through bioware eyes. Being that they are all pretty much exclusive to eachother and as constantly active visual mediums (Once you implant thermals you always see in thermal vision) they seem natural enough to me to count for magic. Cybereyes... Too invasive I say. [/edit]
krakjen
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Apr 15 2008, 11:09 AM) *
Actually, since vision enhancement is in the eyes and ANYTHING in the eyes counts for LoS purposes of targeting a spell then it should work. The problem comes when you try to cyberware ultrasound system &/or Radar sensor. Since they're not in the eye they don't count.


Wrong. Although it's on your eye and you paid for it, you can't target via a digital zoom or any non-optical only device.
Most likely even (unnatural) night/thermographic vision won't work as there is digital image processing...
Malicant
QUOTE (Screamin Demon @ Apr 15 2008, 12:00 PM) *
I feel very inclined to home-rule that a mage with cyber-eyes is seeing everything digitally processed and cannot target spells with vision. It seems the most logical place to draw the line for me. Would I be mistaken in doing so, do you think?

Yes, you would be mistaken. Logic is always beaten by gameplay. The mage already lost Essence and a point of Magic because of the eyes, losing the ability to cast at all on the physical plane might be a little (read: completly) too much.
Larme
They got rid of the whole digital vs. optic thing in Shadowrun 4. You can't buy optical goggles or anything, goggles never count as natural vision for spells. And cyberware vision enhancements always count as natural because you buy them with essence, it doesn't matter whether they're considered digital or not.

The only thing in cybereyes that counts as natural vision, however, is enhancements that actually work based on vision. Ultrasound and radar, since they are not based on sight, but rather on ultrasound/radar waves, can't count as vision and won't work for spell LoS.
krakjen
QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 15 2008, 12:26 PM) *
They got rid of the whole digital vs. optic thing in Shadowrun 4. You can't buy optical goggles or anything, goggles never count as natural vision for spells. And cyberware vision enhancements always count as natural because you buy them with essence, it doesn't matter whether they're considered digital or not.

Did they?

QUOTE (BBB Pg 324)
Mage Sight Goggles: These heavy goggles are connected to a myomeric rope (p. 329) wrapped around a fiberoptic cable that ends in an optical lens.

masterofm
Wasn't this already covered in a really long thread a few months back?
ArkonC
QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 15 2008, 12:26 PM) *
They got rid of the whole digital vs. optic thing in Shadowrun 4. You can't buy optical goggles or anything, goggles never count as natural vision for spells. And cyberware vision enhancements always count as natural because you buy them with essence, it doesn't matter whether they're considered digital or not.

The only thing in cybereyes that counts as natural vision, however, is enhancements that actually work based on vision. Ultrasound and radar, since they are not based on sight, but rather on ultrasound/radar waves, can't count as vision and won't work for spell LoS.

Exactly, with cybereyes, it's not the digital vs optic thing, it's the sight vs not sight thing, if you could implant eyes that convert smells to visual impulses, it would not let you use that to target since smell, even seeing smell, is not sight...
With tools as visual enhancements, it is an issue, a mage using digital magnification cannot target with spells, one using optical magnification can...

EDIT: Serves me right for opening this in a tab and taking to long to answer...
Larme
QUOTE (krakjen @ Apr 15 2008, 05:31 AM) *
Did they?


Yes? At least for everything except mage sight goggles. Which can't have vision enhancements.
krakjen
Yes but that means that anything purely optical will work too.
Sma
foiled by tabbed browsing.
Adarael
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Apr 15 2008, 01:09 AM) *
Actually, since vision enhancement is in the eyes and ANYTHING in the eyes counts for LoS purposes of targeting a spell then it should work. The problem comes when you try to cyberware ultrasound system &/or Radar sensor. Since they're not in the eye they don't count.


I was responding to a question about glasses/goggles, not cybereyes. We have already established that cybereyes are paid for with essence and are therefore fine.
O'Donnell Heir
QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 15 2008, 05:26 AM) *
They got rid of the whole digital vs. optic thing in Shadowrun 4. You can't buy optical goggles or anything, goggles never count as natural vision for spells.


Actually it specifically says you can cast spells using magnification enhancement on goggles in the street gear section "(Ideal for spellcasting at distant targets)". Which means in itself, that you can use goggles for natural spell sight.

Basically, enhancement and magnification just edit are what you are already seeing. You see the target even without them, they just pick it out for you and make it easier to recognize the target. It's not adding something that you're not seeing already, like looking through a clairvoyance spell or a camera. It's still natural sight, just enhanced a little.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 15 2008, 03:26 AM) *
They got rid of the whole digital vs. optic thing in Shadowrun 4. You can't buy optical goggles or anything, goggles never count as natural vision for spells. And cyberware vision enhancements always count as natural because you buy them with essence, it doesn't matter whether they're considered digital or not.


QUOTE (O'Donnell Heir @ Apr 15 2008, 10:45 AM) *
Actually it specifically says you can cast spells using magnification enhancement on goggles in the street gear section "(Ideal for spellcasting at distant targets)". Which means in itself, that you can use goggles for natural spell sight.

Basically, enhancement and magnification just edit are what you are already seeing. You see the target even without them, they just pick it out for you and make it easier to recognize the target. It's not adding something that you're not seeing already, like looking through a clairvoyance spell or a camera. It's still natural sight, just enhanced a little.


Wrong. SR4, 324 says, "This zoom function magnifies vision by up to 50 times, allowing distant targets to be seen clearly. It is available as both an optical (ideal for spellcasting at distant targets) or electronic (with real-time image correction) enhancement."

The optical vs digital IS STILL THERE.

Also, to lend credit to that, SR4, 324, "These optical aids have many uses, one of which is enabling a magician to obtain optical (non-electronic) line of sight for spellcasting from cover. Spellcasting targeted through optics this way suffers a €“3 dice pool modifier."
WhiteWolf
Line of Sight (LoS) is having a straight view from you to your target meaning you are able to see your target with little to no obstructions.
O'Donnell Heir
QUOTE (WhiteWolf @ Apr 15 2008, 01:21 PM) *
Line of Sight (LoS) is having a straight view from you to your target meaning you are able to see your target with little to no obstructions.

That alone is false due to the Optical Devices allowing spellcasting, periscopes, endoscopes and Mage Goggles aren't "straight views from you to your target".
Cabral
QUOTE (O'Donnell Heir @ Apr 15 2008, 01:32 PM) *
That alone is false due to the Optical Devices allowing spellcasting, periscopes, endoscopes and Mage Goggles aren't "straight views from you to your target".

They are straight views "as the photon flies" ... wink.gif
Larme
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 15 2008, 01:07 PM) *
The optical vs digital IS STILL THERE.

Also, to lend credit to that, SR4, 324, "These optical aids have many uses, one of which is enabling a magician to obtain optical (non-electronic) line of sight for spellcasting from cover. Spellcasting targeted through optics this way suffers a �‚€œ3 dice pool modifier."


pwned frown.gif

Though I wonder what number ‚€œ3 represents question.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 16 2008, 11:36 AM) *
Though I wonder what number ���‚��€œ3 represents question.gif


It's a -3. The new software sometimes screws up certain characters.
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