Hello folks,

I'm a longtime GM and Player, having been involved in many RPGs.

Looking back over my time, I can see there have been several trends in the RPG industry :-

Table top RPGs that are just strategic games, with some Characters having a little more flexibility [WarHammer]
Multi-genre RPGs, where you can play anything from anywhere [TORG, Dreampark, GURPS, HERO]
Complicated number intensive RPGs [Traveller, GURPS, HERO]
Simple game mechanic RPGs [GURPS, HERO, Shadowrun]
Cyberpunk RPGs [Cyberpunk 2020, Shadowrun, SLA Industries]
Steampunk RPGs [Space 1889, Castle Falkenstein]

So, what'll be next ??

Thoughts ??

Recently, the trend is towards rule-light games with a lot of power for the players (players able to vote for the way the story will evolve, players able to describe the outcome of their actions, player able to say "no" to the GM or to cheat in a way covered by the rules).

According to some, the next trend would be computer-assisted gaming (i.e D&D 4th ed.). According to others there's simply no future for PnP RPGs.

I think it's kind of funny you didn't mention "d20" as a trend at all. Or, for that matter, Dungeons and Dragons at all.

I don't know about U.K but here in France d20 wasn't that much of a trend compared to what I've heard it was (is?) in the U.S.

I second that motion...D&D covers pretty much all your categories.
I also have to agree with Blade as it seems PnP and true "role play" is a dieing art. Kids (and many adults) just dont want to leave the comfort of their house and don't have to with internet games. Hell, dumpshock & shadowland are steps in that progression. If/when we can combine the deformable terrain & 1st person perspective of the latest Unreal & Crysis engines with the customization power of Neverwinter Nights we'll have the next gen RPG platform. DnD Online was supposed to be that but, it fell short on many levels as did NWN2. Unfortunatley this will be some time in coming as not many users have the desire or skill to do the 3D modeling such games would likely require (the true downfall of NWN2).

A better question, or this may just be tabletop elitism, do we want the kind of people that just play online games to play tabletops? I've seen many people try to transition from WoW to Shadowrun or D&D and in many cases it didn't work out well. They just tend to be the people who munchkinize the game very quickly. Don't get me wrong, I love having 20 dice in combat, but these are fragile rules systems that are prone to breaking VERY easily, especially d20! I also know plenty of people who transitioned from video games to tabletop better than me, so I'm not saying its a universal problem.

As for d20, I don't really feel the need to buy any 4th edition books. I hope you all follow my example and help bankrupt WoTC so we can have a variety of trends.

I didn't mention D&D/AD&D in the same way I didn't mention Fusion, 2300AD, Champions, Gamma World, Rifts, Call of Cthuhu, Chill, Bubblegum Crisis, Earthdawn, Role Master, Space Master, Dark Conspiracy, Dr Who..
..And a whole lot more.

I used examples, that I was thinking of at the time.


From memory, D20 was hailed as something amazing, with much material and sourcebooks released for it..
..Most of which died very quickly, with systems that were often tweaked to make it work [from memory, both Judge Dredd and a Super Hero RPG had to have their rules tweaked to work] - not really a recommendation to its success.

D20 is just a set of rules, in the same way that Fusion or GURPS is a set of rules - all of them have material based off their systems - it's not a genre.

Any D20 material I look at has the D20 rules ignored so I can focus on the source material [like I do for any sourcebook I get, for any RPG].


I've enjoyed the trend towards simpler, more flexible mechanics as it usually encourages a faster played game, with more input from Players and GM..
..And, in fact, I don't know anyone who enjoys wading through complex rules for minor points.

Same here in Germany. The whole "Everybody knows D&D so d20 is familiar to everyone and will sell well"-idea doesn't (didn't) work over here because D&D is not familiar to everyone here - we have DSA (The Dark Eye) in the "Tolkien-style fantasy RPG almost every gamer started with"-position.
I'm not even sure whether D&D3.5 was ever released in German (D&D3 was but the publisher has since lost the license).

I have a paranoid fear that everything will be dumbed down.

I'm not saying d20 was all that great -- but that it was a trend is undeniable. When the Open Gaming License announcement happened, suddenly whole sections of stores were taken over by non-D&D d20 material. I have yet to see whole companies pop up in order to make GURPs or HERO system stuff, y'know?

Like I said, I just think it was funny that it wasn't even a blip on your radar. *shrugs*

And D&D is the biggest and most well known RPG, so whatever they do is at least a, if not the trend.

Actually, Chainmail/D&D was the 1st RPG [followed very closely by Traveller]..
..So what 'trend' are you referring to ??
Being 1st isn't really a trend after 30 years, unless you want to also say that Traveller started the trend for non-fantasy, sci-fi based RPGs [in which case which had more impact - a RPG of only 1 genre, or a RPG that spawned every other genre].

Interestingly, D20/D&D followed the 'trend' of a near future world with magic campaign setting - as epitomised by Shadowrun [since that came out earlier]..
..As well as redoing the TSR RPG Star Frontiers as a D20 game [under a different name], years after Star Frontiers was cancelled [great RPG it was] - as epitomised by Traveller.

As far as I can see [now that people insist on demanding that D&D started a trend], the only 'trend' that D&D/D20 set was to introduce RPGs to the world, and Fantasy RPGs in particular [even though D&D was really a strategy game, with more flexibility for the Characters] - making it the great grand daddy of all RPGs, but I'm not sure that's a 'trend'.


As for setting a trend, I don't think D20/D&D has done that for years - that would indicate that when D20/D&D does something, others follow..
..Blatently not the case for most of the RPGs currently on the market, and hasn't been for many years [Elves in Shadowrun isn't a D&D trend, it's a Fantasy trend]

Actually in France, D&D is still the most sold and played PnP RPG and the one you'll see in every RPG store but we didn't get much of the non-D&D D20 products, except for those sporting a famous license.


That's already more or less the case. Games are already much simpler than what they used to be. Except for some oddities, new games aren't as rules heavy as Rolemaster.
It doesn't necessarily mean they are "dumbed down" though. Some 70s/80s RPG were far too complex to be playable: combats were taken out of wargames/tabletop games where they were the whole point of the game. On the upside the rules were complete and detailed (even if they sometimes weren't really adapted to smaller scale battles) but on the downside combats took a whole session.
The switch to simpler combat rules allowed to shift the focus towards the story and other aspects of the game, so it can't really be called "dumbing down".
For example there's this game called "Maléfices" - some kind of more subtle version of Call of Cthulhu (less tentacles and more atmosphere) - which has only one physical skill (or maybe 2 I don't remember exactly) called "Physical Condition" (which also acts as a health monitor). Because of this, the combat system is very simple. Yet, you can't really call that "dumbing down". It's just that combat isn't important in this game.

I said biggest, not first. And whatever D&D does IS a trend, just because D&D is a big part of the RPG market - from what I know a majority. So, the upcoming 4E is a trendsetter.



I think we have very different views of what's a trend. I consider a trend if a big part of the games change. 4E is a change, and D&D is a big part of what's played, so D&D 4E is a big trend.

Why, yes, I do believe we have a difference of opinion of what a trend is..
..You believe changing the rules for a single RPG [D&D] or a single set of rules [D20] will affect other RPGs..
..Wheras I believe that what happens with D&D/D20 will NOT affect other RPGs



In other news..
..I think that using computers/PDAs when gaming is a hint of what's to come.
People already load PDFs on them, using computer based searches to find info, look up rules, etc [it's the main reason I buy deadtree and PDF versions of sourcebooks/rulebooks.

With that in mind, is there much ingame material available [stuff written from the character's POV] ??

Hrmm... I do think computers will continue to 'steal' players - online PbP or Pbem gaming allows people to play without dedicating a whole Saturday to it, computers allow me to run complex mechanics (like Shadowrun) without having to worry my little head so much, and for players, they can calculate probabilities as to which action is preferable (although I don't see that catching on quite so much, since it requires more initiative and work on the part of the player, and most players don't get THAT into mechanics), and of course, computer graphics don't require the work of a good description, and good computer games can be distributed easily, each copy at equal quality, without the long training period it takes to get a good GM.

However, I keep seeing stuff about this 3D printing. People love war-gaming and love meeting other people in person. I daresay they far prefer gaming with miniatures more than they like playing on the computer because it's more tactile. So if I had to make a long-term prediction, I'd guess we're going to see the ease of 3D printing will allow people to make huge collections of toys easily, combined with the mechanical refinements explored by computers earlier. The end result? I have a computer which keeps track of where my guys are and their condition. When I move a guy, I enter my command into the computer and it tells me if I'm successful (and to what degree). In other words, five pounds of awesome in a four pound sack.

Like, the Digital Initiative of D&D? Virtual tabletop? Making rules so they work better with computers? A trend, per chance, in D&D?

Maybe check D&D's news before dismissing it? 4E is a trend.

Yeah computer assisted gameplay and closer tie ins to virtual worlds is not merely assured, but actually happening right now.

And as i'll bet dollars to cents that large components of the RPG market are also the technosavvy market this move isn't particularly surprising, and I want to know why it has been taking so long.

How can you straight-faced say "what happens with d20 will NOT affect other RPGs," when whole other RPGs and RPG companies started out directly as a result of the open gaming license and the opportunities it presented them?

Seriously, did you walk into and look a round a game store any time between, say, 2000 and 2005? Did you see how much d20 stuff there was all over every single one of them?

Say it was a bad trend if you want, say it was a trend for the worse, say it was a dot-com bubble that burst after a couple years -- but, seriously man, I just don't see how you can keep insisting there was no trend there at all.

I'm totally serious. I want to play a game of D&D first edition. That rule set was best. It was not dumbed down, but rather convoluted. I felt there was the most direct influence of classic American authors such as Robert E. Howard. I don't like contemporary fantasy fiction as much as I like classic American fantasy fiction. I want to play 1st edition D&D and have my level 36 fighter keel over and die because I missed a saving throw against the poison needle. That's what I want.

I also want to play the classic module Chateau D'Amberville, because it was badass.

My Elf will loot your corpse, because that's just how we roll.

FUCHS : Bizarrely, I know people who've been using their computers to help them roleplay for several years, mainly at conventions - without using D&D/D20, a concept I imagine you find hard to accept !!

Having to use D&D/D20 with a computer is lock-in, not using the PC as an accessory.


Critias : Thank you for you input. I've been roleplaying for 20+ years and have been involved in many, many RPGs with many visits to gamestores, and D20/D&D hasn't noticed any effect of D&D/D20 on Shadowrun, HERO, GURPS, Traveller, CP2020, CoC, Role Master, etc..
..Or didn't you notice them non-D20 games when you were visiting gamestores between 2000 and 2005 ??
When D20 changed their rules [yet again], I don't believe they updated anything, changed backgrounds, reprinted sourcebooks, game mechanics, changed the dice conventions, etc for any of the non-D20 systems - or maybe, your game designer knowledge knows different ??

Having lots of D20 rulebooks isn't a trend - it's a set of rules, it's how the shop tries to make money.
The OGL might have been a good idea, but it never fulfilled it's promise [neither did the one for Aeon Trinity, but there you go] in a sustainable market...
..The trend there was RPG companies licensing books, films, comics, TV shows and other RPGs [but that wasn't just D20, GURPS did lots of it and so did West End Games].

If anything, it could be argued that D20 was the result of following the trend for multi-genre, flexible RPGs that were already in existence - TORG, GURPS and HERO come to mind [even though both HERO and Fusion are based on the HERO rules]..
..Tho, I think the Amazing Engine rules were much better for multi-genre, meta gaming - but were probably considered too radical departure from TSR's flagship D&D [and all the backwards compatibility of old material] to continue with, at a time when TSR was suffering all sorts of problems.


Ahhh, 1st Ed D&D was a strange place - there was stuff in there that just got ripped out of the first Fiend Folio - Call of Cthulhu, Elric, etc..
..Happy, but strange, days.


Anybody out there tried to run a cyberpunk/Shadowrun-style hacking attempt during a session, while others are doing other things [a bit like using the Steve Jackson Games Hacker Card Game to represent a hacking attempt] ??

But at the end of the session we will rejoice and share some beers, because your elf will automatically be a combination of fighter and magic user, and will be immune to ghoul paralysis.

And even if it does not sit well with some - D&D is the microsoft of the RPG market. Whatever they do is a trend simply because of the size of their market share.

Did you fail to spot the d20 versions of CoC? Deadlands? The various other systems that sprung from it? Mutants & Masterminds? Spycraft? Conan? True20? The jump start many game companies got from the OGL?

Heck, how can you, with a serious face, argue that WotC opening up their core ruleswork for any other publisher to use was not a trend? It's like claiming IBM allowing clones of their machines was not important for the computer business.

That was the real, innovative thing d20 was: The biggest publisher came out and said "here's our rules system, you're free to use it, and publish material with and for it, since we think it'll be good for us and our core products as well". That was a revolution. Before, every new game had to have new rules, and often failed because people did not want to learn a new rulessystem. D20 offered a standard yet flexible system - and the opportunity to use all other OGL content. It led to multiple new systems and innovations.

D20 was a trend, probably the most important trend 2000-2005.

And 4E is setting a trend since it pushes the virtual tabletop, and has rules streamlined for use electronically. There's no other game company that pushes this like that.

Even Wold of Darkness had a d20 variant (Monte Cook's.) If the second biggest publisher uses d20 for its core line, then yes, there is or was a trend.