My point was more that 50Â¥ is not enough of a savings to use Gel instead of SnS due to the decreased performance.

Our group rule on Stick&Shock is it's only available as a Shotgun Round

But what about the gyrojet shock rockets?!

If someone ever uses a gyrojet, we'll figure that out

I still find it hard to see the logic in those. We have a weapon designed for use underwater. Lets give it electric rounds!

Only if it is freshwater, saltwater the rounds would have a area effect. But are SnS waterproof? if not, carrying a full clip and getting into saltwater would be most entertaining.

WMS

Electric weapon.
Water environment.

FINAL DESTINATION!

Gives new use for that Hose elemental combat spell.

Tarantula: that is 50 per 10 rounds. I often suspect that most games don't really track ammo expenditures very closely and most GM's don't apply enough modifires to increase wiff factor (or simply:not killed yet factor), which is why you can say that.

I imagine that if a Runner is only earning 5k on a run, figurign he's blowing upwards of 10% of his pay on ammo would seriously have him looking for ways to cheapen the process.

Not that I mind SnS being highly effective, actually.


That said: My 'vision' of an SnS round, as much as I'd normally like to hose excessively effective peices of kit, would not be all that vulnerable to water. Especially if it needs to be feedable through a semi-automatic, or automatic weapon. In all likelyhood the taser portion is contained in gel-round like 'slug' until impact.

Thats 8Â¥ a round. SnS typically takes 2-3 rounds per person to drop them unconcious. 16-24Â¥ per guard is not 10% of your 5k run unless you are taking out 20-30 guards per run. I don't know about your games, but I do track my ammo, and typically, I go through less than a clip per run. Most other characters do too. Maybe thats because we lean more towards the "pro" black and shadows don't ever know we were they style of play, but regardless, saving 5Â¥ per round, is nothing worth cheering about. Hell, pick up the guards gun, throw it in a metal box, and let your fixer sell it for 10% of its value off ONE of those guards, and it'll cover your ammo costs for the run.

As far as shorting out the SnS. Secondary effects of water are that it can short out sensitive or unwaterproofed electronics. SnS rounds are electronic. They standardly aren't waterproofed. Thus, they can short out.

That's ¥50 per long burst or per 3 short bursts... An Ingram-X that's a ~¥150 per clip. Lone Star is going to send their guys out with Gel.

Actually, Lonestar is going to send their guys out with thunderbolts, and probably a defiance taser. Taser for incapacitating if need be (and it doubles as a baton!) and the thunderbolt for dropping. In fact, the book lone star squad member has a colt america (probaby because the thunderbolt isn't in the BBB) and a defiance taser, AND a stun baton.


Yeah, and its almost always 1 guard per 3 shots (if not 2) by using Semi-Auto. And it keeps your costs down. And its less noticeable. And no recoil penalties.

Gel: 4S, 6S, 13S, I+2 to resist -2Body to avoid falling
You missed the Gel nerf too.

If you wish to take down a sec guard, mod a ares super squirt for burst fire, with DMSO and Narcojet. Also do not have to worry about recoil or use a silencer either. 10S three times will slow the guard at least.

WMS

Yeah the range isn't so great though.

By the way, has anyone else ever gotten DMSO on them? That weird taste, man, it is to garlic what nutrasweet is to sugar. Plus the fact that you're tasting something because you touched it, that's just not right.

You're wrong, sorry. Narcojet has a speed of immediate. Immediate speed takes effect at the end of the combat turn in which it is applied. SR4, 245. The gamemaster gets to increase the damage of a toxin that is applied more than one dose before the speed has elapsed. I'd say, in this case, normal burst rules work just fine. +2 do the DV of the toxin, so it does one hit at 12S. Not 3 at 10S each.

Your are correct Tarantula
Cyanide, Immediate 8P
Warp, Immediate 10S
Shade, Immediate via DMSO? Astral Projection, even mundanes
Atropine, Immediate 5P
Breathtaker, 1 Combat Turn, 8S
Ekyelebenle Venom, 1 Combat Turn, 8P
Naga Venom, 1 Combat Turn, 6D
Nova Scorpion Venom, 1 Hour, 12P

Do Not have the in game stats for Nicotine.

WMS

Hrm, new idea. Rather pathetic in melee, whoopass in astral combat magician who packs shade in his supersquirt.

What is 6D for naga venom?

Also makes for confused forensic teams trying ot figure out CoD.

Supposed to be 6P for naga venom.

Just take a mage type a force 6 physical invisibility, add some extras, then come up to the targets, spray em down then wait 1 combat turn. It makes no sounds when firing also.

WMS

Well, the thread title sort of points to full auto S-n-S. I'm aware that you can use SA pistols with S-n-S to great effect, but not on all targets. Some will require a little "extra love" before they'll agree to go down. (Was that a pun of some kind? My apologies. English's a second language for me. ) And in full auto, as was my point, it **does** get "significantly cheaper" pretty fast. AAAAAAAAAAnyways...

My point was, for a "cost" concern, its better to use stick and shock in single shots, and not in full auto.

Yeah, but where's the fun in *that*?

Seriously, we're both right, but talking about different ways of assessing the cost. You're right, two shots of S-n-S in SA will often be just as effective as a full auto burst and it will cost much less. And two rounds of S-n-S will be cheaper than 10 rounds of Gel. But at the same time, there are situations you'll want to use full auto, like if you need suppressive fire. With S-n-S, that gets expensive real quick.

So yeah, I really need S-n-S in one gun and something cheaper in the other. For, you know, pizza and beer.

As an aside...

Back in 2.0, I found out that even if loaded with gel rounds, a drum of shotgun ammo on full automatic will, in fact, kill people.

Oops.


-karma

Fine. If your standard plan for guards is to spray them full auto or suppressive fire regardless of the circumstances, then yes, gel will be cheaper.

If you're actually just trying to knock out a guard or two and subdue them, without making lots of noise, SnS is the way to go.

You can always kill them after they're down, if you're really paranoid about witnesses.

Have to take their cybereyes with you though. Nothing says "trophy" like incriminating evidence.

If you are only dealing with a guard or two... on EVERY FRIKKIN RUN then no wonder you aren't to worried about the cost.

Sure. I can buy a 20 dollar cigar and smoke it and never complain of the cost. If I wanted to smoke a cigar every day or god forbid TWO cigars a day... then there is a problem.

In other words: If ammo costs aren't an issue, the GM is going soft on you when the shit hits the fan. If the shit never hits the fan then your GM isn't going soft on you, he's peddling jello.

And again, if you're going full auto, you're better off using something such as ex-ex and not SnS, since whats the point of just knocking them out by the time full-auto is a good idea.

Hense my comment, right at the begining, about most Burst/Full Auto Weapons *HAVING* a Semi-Auto Mode.

That's what I get for being subtle. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I guess my whole deal was... if you're facing a Big Troll - you know the kind I'm talking about -, then two shots of S-n-S might not be enough. Hence the question in the first place about using S-n-S in full auto.

CanRay, I guess I didn't really click when I read your original comment simply because I'd never use an Ingram when a Pred does the trick. I'd only reach for the Ingram when SA just won't do. But yeah, you're right, with more money to spend, I'd go with an SMG that *does* have an SA mode too. Polyvalence is a good thing.

Multifunction equipment allows for less weight carried, thus greater mobility. But the Pred has it's place as well.

The right tool, for the right job.

Pred for intimidation, Ingram for ROCK AND ROLL!!!

If the availability wasn't so high, I'd probably go with an HK Urban Combat instead, but it's on my shopping list for later. I miss Concealability stats because it made it easier to compare weapons. How big is the Urban Combat? If it's a small SMG and the Predator is a large Heavy Pistol, is the UC still bigger than the Pred? Oh! Well...

Concealability rules will be one thing I will be including!

I'm sorry, but "Money" Johnson picked the Browning Ultrapower because it was a snub-nosed Autopistol. If it's classed as the same concealability as an Ares Predator IV, why bother?

If you're facing a Big Troll, then we're not talking about security guards that you'll commonly run into on a run, and the money/shot aspect doesn't really matter.

Depending on the Security Firm. Some are equal opportunity employers, and understand that, sure, he eats twice as much as the rest of the security force, but he also deters five times as many problems!

And again, hes likely NOT the typical common security guard you'll run into. He might be one you run into, and frankly, thats why you have a mage in the party.

Unless it explicitly overrules concealability (although additional modifiers do not do this) then you refer to the standard table provided on page 302 of the main book that gives the concealability modifier by the class of item. Machine Pistols are +2, Heavy Pistols are +0. SMGs are +4.

Yeah, that's one of my complaints about 4th (GASP? Say it ain't so? The NEW GUY that supports MATRIX 2.0 Complaining about 4th?) is the removal of individual firearm concealment rules.

I've already posted my reason why.

And that's one thing I will fix toot sweet!

I prefer it be streamlined, one less thing to remember for every single weapon without removing the option to conceal things.

Yeah, but I have a hard time seeing it.... All assault rifles are the same size? What about the M4 then say compared to an AUG Steyr? Or what is the point in a sawed off shot gun? I like concealability stats cause it adds a whole new calculation into what weapons to buy. It makes sometime "superior" weapons somewhat of a tradeoff.

Exactly. Why buy that Browning Ultrapower and pay to have it Smartlinked when you can just get an Ares Predator IV?

Well, if you don't have a smartlink system in your eyes, or a pair of goggles/shades, then the laser sight might be a better option.

Thanks. I stumbled upon it yesterday, more or less by chance. It answers my question in a very general way. I'd have liked to know relative sizes within gun categories, but I guess I'll do without for now.

You're going to guesstimate the concealability of all SR4 weapons (based on previous edition values, I assume)? If you do, I'd very much like to have a copy of your list.

Sawed off shotguns reduce concealability mods (lower is better because concealability mods apply to perception checks to notice them). The main thing is that concealability mods are the exception in the new edition due to granularity changes (if previously they really varied inside categories) and therefore are more efficient in terms of information compression to note as exceptions in the flavour text of the gun. The Morissey Elite, for example, has an additional -1 concealability modifier, but having a concealability stat is pointless because it's almost certainly the only heavy pistol to have a modification beyond the standard.

So rather than having a list of +0s next to every heavy pistol entry except for one, we get a note at the end of the flavour text of the Morissey Elite saying that it gets a -1 modifier and uses light pistol ranges. Now, if you happen to want to use a quick reference this doesn't help, but your players have an incentive to remember it because of the fact that they're the ones who gain an advantage from that rule.

Well, I understand and agree with you on the advantages of having a certain standardization. It's just that there doesn't seem to be much variety in terms of concealability. Are all heavy pistols +0 except that single one HP that's a bit smaller (i.e. basically has a short barrel modification)? Pistols differ in various ways. Couldn't they differ (more) in terms of concealability as well? In the end, it's a really minor complaint though.

They could, but there's not enough granularity in the mechanics to permit too much. It's part of the whole "4 is the new 6" effect; a modifier of +/-1 now has more effect than it did. If you want additional variance in concealability then feel free to sprinkle some +1 concealability modifiers amongst some weapons; the Pred and Super Warhawk could have that modifier, for example.

Interestingly enough, the threshold is as for a normal perception test, so you might be better served by improving your way of hiding your weapons.

I was thinking of giving a concealability bonus to trolls.
Trolls are very big (even if they got retconned a little smaller in 4th ed).
So seeing as there is no troll-sized weapons (only the grip is modified, the size or the weapon itself does not change), the weapons are proportionally smaller in their hands/pockets/holsters.
For example, a Shotgun looks more like a Heavy Pistol and a SMG like a Machine Pistol.
On the other hand, troll sized clothes/equipment are pretty big. So something like a troll-sized lined coat could be used as a tent by the rest of the team (slight exaggeration spotted).

Anyway, based on all this, I was thinking of giving a +2 concealability bonus to trolls

What do you think?

I think it makes a lot of sense. I think a +2 is pretty much right on.

You might want to make that a -2 modifier; they apply to a perception test to detect concealed weapons on someone else (they apply to the guard who's trying to find the Pred you have in your armpit holster). A +2 bonus makes the test more likely to succeed.