This HAS TO BE an idea that has run the gamut here before, but has anyone out there got a link to some other mad genius who has reverse engineered the Shadowrun game engine (not just d6 generally, which is a bit other) but rather the full Mago/Genre system to a full blown fantasy setting?

This seems, just glancing at it mentally to be the easiet thing imaginable, except for the balance issues. Anyone done a run at this out there? Are there things other than pure balance which derailed you if so? I've never seen anything quite like this so maybe it is so obvious that it hasn't been done, at least not past the mental hand job phase. What say ye?


Isshia

Remove all but adepts and mages as player characters, and you're mostly set.

Well you have to set up what kind of world.

Straight up basic hack and slash with no extra IP madness? Probably a pretty easy fix, combat would at least be marginally more interesting than d20 and probably be a little more balanced at "higher" levels.

But no, never took it past the thinky phase.

Same here, I generally prefer my fantasy to be a little more hero-centric than Shadowrun allows you to be. I've thought about it though, but with the SR damage system, mages and bowmen would rule the world.

Chris

Granted, bowmen did more or less rule the world and I'm sure mages would have been slightly ahead of them.

But yeah, if you get medieval about it... it'll be pretty medieval.

I charge the hill!

The bowmen shoots you.

His 20 friends shoot you too.

Soak uhm... 5P damage 20 times. oops! Forgot to stage up damage for net successes...

Why not just play Earthdawn?

EDIT for clarity: Err, is it the die mechanic you like? Or the fluff of the various metaraces, etc?

The simplest way to do it is to keep everything intact and just rename Renraku Arcology to Renraku Castle.

For a more reasonable technological diversion start by having Hero of Alexandria actually realize the vast potential of the steam engine when he invents it in the first century A.D. , resulting in the Roman Empire developing steamships and steam-powered war machines which both secures the prosperity of their Empire and allows them to colonize the New World.
Constantine never rises to power and thus Christanity never rises above being a persecuted fringe cult.
Come connects all of its territories in Europe, the Middle East, and Northern Africa with a transcontinental railroad system, ensuring the Empire's stability in spite of its size with these fast and ultimately unbreakable lines of commerce. The New World colonies chafe under excess taxation decreed by the Roman Senate and break away in a bloody revolution, forming the United Provinces. Native Americans initially support this as they had been treated like crap by Rome but the UP Senate also treats them like crap. Rome finally stretches itself too thin when it tries to invade China in the 9th century but does obtain gunpowder from the excursion. By this time, trade between Rome and the UP has also been normalized and the UP gains gunpowder technology as well.

All of this leads us to a 2012 that is both similar to our own but totally bizarre.
Electricity was discovered but was a passing fad that never came into widespread use. A few rich eccentrics have coal-fed DC generators in their palatial estates to power electric lightbulbs but most people consider it an expensive, wasteful, and dangerous alternative to candles, a solution to a problem that never existed. No electricity, of course, also means no telephone, telegraph, radio, or television. Communication is all done by courier and can be very expensive over long distances. Revolvers are new inventions and are bitches to reload due to the fact that no one had yet some up with the brass cartridge. Paper cartridges are the ammunition standard. Computers exist, but they're huge expensive steam-powered and punchcard programed devices generally reserved for university mathematics departments and military codebreaking units. The industrial revolution, having come so much earlier, had far less impact. Agriculture is still the primary economic activity in most of the world, including the United Provinces, with manufacturing being performed by almost entirely by skilled craftsmen. Automated production simply doesn't happen. The internal combustion engine was never created and most vehicles are either horse or coal powered.
The Megacorporations came into being when Rome found it more economically feasible to send privately-funded expeditions into Southern Africa and Asia. These companies were officially servants of the empire but once the gained footholds into mineral-rich territories using military might they refused to relinquish their hard-won power.

When the Awakening occurs, oppressed natives rise up across the world, shattering both the Roman Empire and the United Provinces, creating a Balkanzied world similar to Shadowrun's default setting. The Expeditionary Companies that nominally served Rome's interests in Africa and Asia anticipated the Awakening and made backroom deals with local mystics and shamans, offering significant amounts of voting stock to those who might otherwise be inclined to kick the invading businessmen out of their homelands. Remaining neutral while Rome and the UP both fell, these Megacorporations became the dominant economic powers of the world overnight and branched out to establish castles, enclaves, and citadels, all over the world.

No one, of course, could have predicted the return of the dragons, however. Due to the lower level of technology and the lack of multimedia telecommunications, the dragons kicked significantly more ass than they did in the default Sixth World, carving out large territories for themselves and generally lording over the people more than would otherwise be usual. Some of them do see the benefits of going into business with the humans, of course, and Lofwyr controls a powerful Germanic Megacorp in this reality just as he does in the original.

Limb and organ cloning technology had existed before the Awakening due to the earlier adoption of firearms and the resultant constant high pressure on battlefield medicine. Bioware comes into existance after the Awakening as part of a Megacorp project to bridge the performance gaps between mundane and adepts. A form of cyberware is also developed at this time, though the fact that the integrated circuit was never invented means that it is substantially more primitive that that available in the standard Sixth World.

Hi all

I didn't foresee this, but I am going to be in and out allot for the next few days. Please don't think I don't value the ideas being shared here because I don't respond quickly for these few days.

The system here is what I love. The old 3rd edition and older initiative system is maybe the second biggest winner. The biggest is the complete absence of hit points. I disagree strongly with the idea that hit points make for a more "heroic" setting. Heroes in any decent fantasy novel as heroes partly because they ARE every bit as mortal as everyone else. They CAN die as easily as the barmaid. It is this, much more than the setting, that in my opinion makes Shadowrun such a superior game vehicle to anything in the traditional heroic fantasy genre RPG field.

Now the problem becomes one already mentioned here earlier, that Mages and Bowmen would pretty much rule the world.

Here's my first thought at a work around for that and for the deadliness of combat in general. Armor. Making armor behave in the way that it actually DOES behave with the terms to follow applied to the game vehicle

*the transferring of lethal damage into subdual damage
**and the reduction of THAT damage into a more manageable amount

If you are wearing a leather jerkin and a guy slashes at you with a sword, the slash will be curtailed in it's primary effect, that of spilling your guts all over the ground, by the jerkin. You will still feel the impact and might even get the wind knocked out of you thereby, but if the sword doesn't cut through the armor...

Yes, I know that THIS is partly what the Hit Point idea is supposed to represent. The problem is it doesn't do so. It remains the same amount whether you have your armor on or not. And therein lies the rub.

So, if it reduces the damage first to non-lethal and THEN acts as armor does in this system normally...

Now though we have the "million modifiers" to worry about. Any of you remember an old time fantasy author by the name of Robert Adams? The guy who did the "Horse Clans" novels? The man WAS an amateur armorer, and a good one, and his stories showed EXACTLY what armor does and how. There is in one of the books a conversation between an officer who wants to outfit his command with the best armor he can afford and the smith who is selling him the armor and he puts a tightly woven chain shirt on the dummy and has the officer bash away at it with a good shortsword, really hammering it, to show the durability...but when the officers prepares to stab with said sword...the smith restrains him, because THAT is the vulnerability of chainmail.

So, it would have to take in to account the different attack types, differing weapon types and differing armor types all in one go. Tricky to say the least without a ICE like system with three hundred charts and tables for possible outcomes...and this too is something I'm trying to avoid and fully familiar with.

So, onward we go.


Isshia

I got past the thinking phase on this same idea last year but RL got in the way. Feel free to pick the bones of this old thread.

Also, I would be happy to work with you if find my ideas compatible.

Wow, I think Hyzamarca has the best post I've seen... well, in a long time. Very cool.

Beyond that, it's not uncommon to replace cyberware with some sort of magical alternative; tattoo magic, blood magic, magic items installed in the body (a la earthdawn), etc. - all of which run off of the body's own magical essence, thereby keeping it from having that magic available for other purposes. This allows for powerful mundanes using what are basically magical parasites or sustained magical spells in order to compete.

And finally back. What a week so far.

Anyway, Thank you Alex, I'll look in to that old thread more closely later, but from first glance some of the ideas are intriguing.

I agree by the way as to the quality of Hyzamarca's post and DO appreciate the ideas. It might even be a way to go, partly at least, for my (so far only a minor brain shower level idea) "Hexists" which would be using what equated to magical parasitic beings (and thus shortening their life spans) that would give all the same benefits of the old Bioware enhancements in much the same game mechanics manner, except that they would age you instead of filling "Body" slots.

The idea of a normal man being able to hold "life energy sustained Atifacts" equal to (and deducting from) their essence rating replacing cyberware in most respects takes care of that end. The concept I'm developing incorporates all of this with another ideal...that basically it is only the "blood marked" can do any of this and that there are few, nay, VERY few of those folks around.

Here instead of a completely explored globe and the ideas of mega corporations there are enclaves each with their own manner of harnessing the supernal. One will operate primarily over "Hexing", which lends great power but shortens the life span, another "continent" might specialize in "technology" and these folk would be close to the steam punk ideas presented, if a bit short of them. Yet another would have the "Articifers" with their Artifacts which actually consume part of the soul (essence) and all of them would have the RARE true Mage or Adept, and such people would likely be all but royalty in some places and distrusted greatly in others.

Ohh, this is just a VERY rough sketch yet and has holes in it you could run a fat troll through sideways, but it seems on the surface at least to have some merit. Any ideas?


Isshia

Well keep us updated, my table is looking at running a steampunk adventure at some point and it'd be nice if we didn't have to learn another gaming system.

Hey, just to chime in I'm interested in replacing the system in my D20 Wheel of time game... D&D and Aes Sedai just don't mix. The SR magic system seems alot more appropriate to drain of using the One Power contra the Vancian system.

I've also considered Ars Magica... anyone tried that for different settings?

In any case, I'm interested in hearing about anyone using 4th ed SR in a medieval fantasy setting. And hey Isshia

A buddy of mine swears by Ars Magica, but I can't say I've used it at all. I'll tap him for his thoughts.

Shadows of the Past

Welcome to the further Shadows of my mind. ï?Š

So, I’ve always loved Shadowrun’s 3rd edition system. I really do feel like they’ve cleaned it up and made the corrections they needed to from 2nd edition and it retains an elegant simplicity that still allows for a tremendous amount of sophistication and detail.

But, I also absolutely LOVE heroic fantasy. I love the way of it and the drama of it and the feel of it. Now, by heroic fantasy I do NOT mean Epic D&D. Indeed, if we are talking power levels I think that 5-8th levels in 3.5D&D are the MOST heroic ones. I also think they are VERY poorly represented in D&D of any edition or any stamp. The problem is the system itself. Specifically the biggest problem is hit points. Following this is weapon damage and how armor works. Really the only good thing about D&D for me is the magic system…except that it is a Vancian system and I despise THAT more than hit points. Mechanically it’s clunky and contrived.

So…. The obvious fix is to wed the Shadowrun system in to a heroic fantasy setting. Obviously this is going to take some tweaking.

First there is the problem, as one forumite put it, that Mages and Archers would own the world. Another noted that for a long time, archers basically did own the world combat wise. Agincourt taught that lesson. Yet for the game this is less than optimal.

So, we’re going to try a multi pronged approach to fixing the bumps. The first is what armor is and what it does for you. This is going to be as generic as I can make it, using an almost D&D-esque genericism to fit as many eventualities as possible. First, armor “sometimes� reduces the basic effectiveness of what is being used against you. For instance, chainmail, as was stated in an earlier example, is wonderful against bashing types of weapons and crushing ones as well…but is much less worthwhile against piercing weapons. To reflect this there would have to be several basic types of armor and attention now paid to what gross method was used to deliver the damage. This is beginning to sound like earlier editions of D&D, but don’t despair. I promise to leave THAC0 out of this.

So, we’d want a set up something like this:
• Padded (slashing+)
• Leather (slashing+)
• Ring (slashing+)
• Scale (slashing and blunt+)
• Brigandine (slashing ++ and blunt+)
• Splinted (slashing ++ and blunt+)
• Lamellar (slashing++ piercing and blunt both at +)
• Mail (slashing & blunt ++)
• Plate (slashing and piercing ++; blunt +)--very rare--

The + indicates that the armor will reduce half of the damage, rounded down, to non-lethal while a ++ means that it reduces all of the damage to non-lethal before application. The armor would then reduce the damage in a normal manner. That is to say that a suit of Brigandine armor rated at (SL*4++/BL*2+/PR-) would reduce the power of a sword slash by 4 and would reduce all of the primary damage from one to non-lethal.

Since most ancient armors are piece work it could be added easily enough added that the greaves and gauntlets on Example Warrior A are Leather (2+/-/-) while he was also wearing a Scalemail cuirass (4+/2+/-) and so it begins to matter where and how he is hit. Hmmm, this already may be a problem. Feedback?



Isshia


Ohh, and Heya FotD.

If you're planning on using Shadowrun's system, instead of using + to indicate half or full damage, why not just use the codes commonly used for Shadowrun armor, except instead of ballistic and impact, it's now slashing/crushing/piercing (since those seem to be the three forms of attack referenced). This also means that if a giant monster uses a 'blunt weapon' of a boulder the size of a semi-truck to hit your character who is wearing mail, he doesn't get away with only stun damage (which is the problem with percentages). Maybe mail is 4/8/0, which is enough to shrug off most crushing attacks, but a giant boulder causes 12D crushing damage - far too much for even his armor to completely eliminate.

I was unclear. I apologize. The idea isn't half or zero damage and it does include the idea of slashing/blunt/piercing in place of ballistic and impact. The + and ++ refer to the CONVERSION of damage from lethal TO non-lethal state. That is to say that each + reduces the lethality of the damage, but not the actual damage total.

For instance, a clam shell Breastplate would protect as follows: 6slashing/4impact/4piercing...but it would also convert both slashing and piercing type attacks by two wound categories from lethal to non-lethal damage (as plate is rated as ++ for both slashing and piercing damage) BEFORE the actual armor reduction of the power of the attack was applied; but would only lessen the lethal damage from a blunt attack to moderate lethal and light non-lethal.

So, if we have an attacker with a Strength*4 and a flanged footman's mace (Str+2) who gets three more successes than the defender did on his test roll he would inflict a serious lethal wound in basis. Now our defender has the above clamshell breastplate against this and so reduces the damage to Moderate Lethal and Light non-Lethal. The defender then, who has a bod of 4 and a magical item that gives him 2 shadow body for damage resistance tests decides to use all 6 dice against the moderate lethal damage. Since the Breastplate reduced the power of the attack by 4 to just 2, this virtually guarantees he'll take no lethal damage and just a Light non-lethal wound. After all, it still HURTS to get solidly clonked by a strong man with a big mace.
Isshia

I don't want dwell too much on the off topic part of the thread but I've used Ars magica for other settings and it has worked fantastically well. I can't recommend it enough.

Admittedly they were settings with the four realms from Ars magica complete with auras and regios, where characters lived in covenants and rules little fiefdoms just like Mythic Europe but I don't think that a more radical departure form the established setting would be much harder.

What would be tough, is if you wanted to somehow make a man who is skilled at using an axe as powerful as someone who can spont level 15 rego spells. But between non heretic options in the realms books, the forgotten traditions from Ancient magic and the ex-miselania traditions detailed in Societas (not to mention the upcoming hedge magic book) there are gobs and gobs of non-hermetic options. Also tough would be changing the time frame of the stories. You do that and you'll need to re-write the experience system. You'll make skill and power come from adventures rather than study and practice, just like all of the other games.

Now back to the discussion of adapting the Shadowrun system for fantasy.