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masterofm
A trode net is very easy and it doesn't putz around in your head. Why would corps shell out the money when its 400 nuyen.gif cheaper to give them a hair net and say "put this on when you want to use the matrix." Also guns in this setting are RESTRICTED, or forbidden (at least according to our friend Mr. BBB) and people would need a permit to carry said gun in most places. Give John Q. Everyman something that the general populace can have (maybe a super squirter w/ pepper punch?) A pulsar or shocker would be appropriate, or maybe a knife. No guns though for Mr. John Q. Everyman wage slave. Sorry I just don't feel it.

*edit* By the BBB every human has an edge of 2, so yes they have an edge of 2. If it was John Q. Metahuman they would have an edge of 1. *edit*
sunnyside
Personally I don't think A John Q should get an edge score par se. They should vaguely work within the group edge idea.

Either just stick with the RAW mechanincs of SR4 where that's how it works. Or go with an Earthdawn related rationalization which I prefir.

masterofm
Quick when you are shooting at the ganger don't forget to add your step value!
stevebugge
Well for most of shadowrun history (read previous editions here) the trode net was much less effective than the datajack, so while people who entered the workforce between 2066 and 2070 may not need a datajack, most of the gainfully employed prior to 2064 probably had one. Also keep in mind that most companies don't pay list price for gear, those are the Street/Retail prices in the book. If for example you're Mistuhama Computer Technologies your cost on a datajack is probably about 40% of list price, but your employees (at least outside of accounting) may not know that so when bonus season comes around and you have the option of handing out cash, or giving away some free datajacks with the same percieved cash value but which actually cost you 60% less and will result in a productivity boost, which one do you do?
vladski
QUOTE (masterofm @ Apr 29 2008, 01:04 PM) *
A trode net is very easy and it doesn't putz around in your head. Why would corps shell out the money when its 400 nuyen.gif cheaper to give them a hair net and say "put this on when you want to use the matrix." Also guns in this setting are RESTRICTED, or forbidden (at least according to our friend Mr. BBB) and people would need a permit to carry said gun in most places. Give John Q. Everyman something that the general populace can have (maybe a super squirter w/ pepper punch?) A pulsar or shocker would be appropriate, or maybe a knife. No guns though for Mr. John Q. Everyman wage slave. Sorry I just don't feel it.

*edit* By the BBB every human has an edge of 2, so yes they have an edge of 2. If it was John Q. Metahuman they would have an edge of 1. *edit*


That fresh, young new intern? Sure, they could have the trode net! But for the guy that's been in accounting since 2057? The one you already re-wired his head a decade ago? Just give him a dongle to stick in his hole. (My, doesn't that sound rude?! *L*) It would have to be cheaper to make than a trode net and a very commonly wanted item. Why duplicate the wiring that is already existant when all you need is an interface micro circuit board, no sensors or anything necessary?

Edit: I was wrong in what i said about Edge. Humans being created as runners do, in fact, get two. But, I will stick with the one point of edge theory here in my builds. Johnny Q is not shadowrunner.. Runners are exceptional examples of humanity. I still figure the average human will only have 1 point of Edge.

Vlad
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (masterofm @ Apr 29 2008, 01:04 PM) *
A trode net is very easy and it doesn't putz around in your head. Why would corps shell out the money when its 400 nuyen.gif cheaper to give them a hair net and say "put this on when you want to use the matrix."


I'd go for trode net workstations. Like we have keyboard and mouse, they just have a trode net in their cubical. Probably some of the old school tech professionals have datajacks but all I see them needing is a patch cable to plug in to the system. So both are usually available, standard would be trode nets, and direct feed for those who already have datajacks and prefer to use them.

But anyone who's been in the workforce for a significant amount of time, probably already has a datajack.
Speed Wraith
Ugh...I feel bad for the IT guys of the future. You should see some of the nastiness we've found in laptop bags and how filthy some of these keyboards are. Can you just imagine the germ-fest that would be a trode-net coming back into surplus after the user had been terminated? nyahnyah.gif
stevebugge
QUOTE (Speed Wraith @ Apr 29 2008, 11:09 AM) *
Ugh...I feel bad for the IT guys of the future. You should see some of the nastiness we've found in laptop bags and how filthy some of these keyboards are. Can you just imagine the germ-fest that would be a trode-net coming back into surplus after the user had been terminated? nyahnyah.gif

HAHA I can just imagine when people are getting their IT certifications:

"Ok there are 4 parts to this test, Hardware, Software, Security, and Head Lice Identification"
masterofm
Honestly why do people think corps will take care of their wage slaves? Why? If I was a corp I would get the Johnson to give each guy a fifteen second speech on how their chances of promotion will greatly increase if they get a data jack. I mean w/ a con of 4, I think just that small amount of time people will get the picture that if they want to keep their job they will BUY a datajack of their own w/ their first paycheck.... or maybe put a down payment on the data jack and pay the rest in installments.

Corporations try to keep people down hardcore. Why give a wage slave anything? Who cares if it's 10 nuyen.gif or 100 nuyen.gif ? Nuyen is Nuyen, and to hell with the person who you can replace in seconds. There is a line out the door for that job and that fool is lucky to get it, and the Johnson will make sure they get that point.
Speed Wraith
Because you can write it off as a business expense, and include a rider in the employee's contract so that they pay back the cost of the DJ and operation.
CanRay
Or just have the datajack BE company property!

Gotta give it back if you leave... Or are fired.
masterofm
The minute that you sign that contract that is thicker then the large print version of the LOTR trilogy all bound into one.... they already own you. After that they might as well let you pay for everything. I almost think of wage slaves one step from indentured servants in a corporate empire.

"Only 20 more years Mr. Everyman and you will finally be debt free... well... unless you want to purchase some of our fine new cool products... and you WILL BE BUYING OUR NEW PRODUCTS OR I WILL END YOU!! It's in the contract you signed. Page 785 paragraph 8 line 4."
quentra
Letter C, Section IIV, Subsection XXIX. Bullet 3.
Cthulhudreams
The lock in contracts thing is entirely made of stupid, and doesn't even make sense in SR4 verse.

If the corporations are unique world powers who are engaged in semi overt warfare with each other (they seriously make hollywood movies about people who are hired by corps to shoot up other corps, so don't tell me it's 'covert' or that 'no-one knows' or that they don't admit it. They make bloody movies about it) with exclusive jurisdiction over their territory that guys from say, ambulences won't cross into a 'corp' complex, I could seriously just get a new job and a new ID and everything by walking out of Fuchi and into Horizon.

Horizon has no incentive to admit to Fuchi that I have defected, and has the capability to issue me with a new legit ID, and I can easily call in sick at Fuchi and transfer my stuff over day one. Tada, I've jettisoned a 2 million yen debt, and am completely untraceable. Fuchi can even issue me with a replacement firearms license.

Lock in contracts don't make any sense.

In other news, I think bills of rights are equally insane. smile.gif
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 30 2008, 06:44 AM) *
The lock in contracts thing is entirely made of stupid, and doesn't even make sense in SR4 verse.

If the corporations are unique world powers who are engaged in semi overt warfare with each other (they seriously make hollywood movies about people who are hired by corps to shoot up other corps, so don't tell me it's 'covert' or that 'no-one knows' or that they don't admit it. They make bloody movies about it) with exclusive jurisdiction over their territory that guys from say, ambulences won't cross into a 'corp' complex, I could seriously just get a new job and a new ID and everything by walking out of Fuchi and into Horizon.

Horizon has no incentive to admit to Fuchi that I have defected, and has the capability to issue me with a new legit ID, and I can easily call in sick at Fuchi and transfer my stuff over day one. Tada, I've jettisoned a 2 million yen debt, and am completely untraceable. Fuchi can even issue me with a replacement firearms license.



Lock in contracts don't make any sense.


Not for someone that capable, no. But for your average "I need the corp more than teh corp needs me" folks, they're pretty much a given.
Cthulhudreams
You're not thinking economics. Say fuchi spends all this cash implanting some dude with skillwires. I'm horizon. I need dudes with skillwires to do trivial tasks ABC

either I can steal fuchi's employee at 0 cost + onboarding costs by absolving him of his fuchi debt, or I can get some random guy off the street implant skillwires in some guy for 12k yens + onboarding costs

Seriously thats not even a decision you think about. It's much more effective just to jack Fuchi's resources.

Of course, if the corporations actually offer good working conditions and stuff they can retain employees effectively etc, which is a model that makes much more sense.
Critias
Remember, also though, that people are raised by a corp (in true mid-80's "ZOMG Japanese culture!" fashion) and are all kinds of stupid loyal to 'em and stuff. Momma Corp and Papa Corp say you're in debt to the Corp because you deserve to be in debt to the Corp, you owe the Corp the roof that's been over your head since you were a baby (born in a Corp hospital), the food that's always been in your stomach, the school you went to, etc, etc, etc.

I can see that sort of pervasive, all-inclusive, "love us" pseudo-patriotism keeping most folks settled into place pretty well. Enough to keep up the status quo, at least.
masterofm
No. John Q. Everyman does not have skillwires IMOP. Why would he/she? The fact that you are putting that much money into someone's head just doesn't make sense as you have already stated. I put forth that the average person pretty much sucks, so why would someone put that much time and effort into an expendable employee? You have to preform an operation on the person and they could die on the slab if you don't do it right, or possibly damage the skillwires.

If any company is going to put a free set of skillwires, a datajack, and/or anything else I would think the last thing they would put inside that person's head is a cranial bomb. If that fool tries to defect to Fuchi his head is a walking bomb of death. Fuchi might not want to take the risk considering how much damage it could do if Fuchi tries to take this person in.

*edit* From seeing the post above, don't forget they probably bombard their workers with subliminal messages 24/7 for that extra loyalty factor. At one point when walking through an Ares facility the GM made us roll a will check. The people who failed couldn't help but sing the song that was played over the hidden speakers. For some reason the only words of the song any of us could remember was the part that said "Ares." The troll was singing the song for fifteen minutes before the elf after repeated attempts to tell the troll to shut it finally cracked a mop over his head in annoyance (the team was posing as janitors at the time.) Didn't actually do anything to the troll, but at least he stopped singing the song. I find this very fitting in the SR world. *edit*

Cthulhudreams
Skillwires are Cheap. Really cheap. Less than 2 months salary. As a result, you get an employee who is fully capable of doing low to medium level tasks with a high degree of efficiency. For reference it costs 6 months salary (on average) to recruit and train someone.

While some of that cost (typically 10-50% for professionals) is recruitment, that means that 50-90% is training. Ie you save 3-5 months worth of salary by implanting skillwires.

So the corp saves between 5k and 15k yens per person with skillwires.

Skillwires are extremely cost effective.

Therefore virtually everyone will have skillwires as the cost is low and the reward is amazing.

Installing cranial bombs in your entire workforce is probably not a good idea.
masterofm
Yes teaching people takes more time, but if you know they are going to work for you for the rest of their lives then 6 months is nothing. Taking the time to teach them know how to only use the "Ares OS" that is specifically designed differently then any other AAA corp, then it allows people to not just freely move about the system. Skillwires take time to put into someones head and it takes time to recover from it. It's not an instant rocking awesome thing, and if you put skillwires into someones head it is just begging them to go somewhere else if they are not being treated fairly. All the other corp needs is the software (which they have gobs of since it costs them about 0 nuyen.gif to give the program out to anyone) Why is this a good tactic? Either you can make people completely dependent on your company, or give the advantage to your employees. The choice is yours.
Critias
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 30 2008, 01:06 AM) *
Installing cranial bombs in your entire workforce is probably not a good idea.

Not true.

Telling your workforce about the cranial bombs? That's the bad idea part. wink.gif
Cthulhudreams
Except that Horizon can just give them the 'horizon knowsoft' and suddenly they are totally hip with horizon OS.

Low -> basic level knowledge can be handed out with a pack of cornflakes.

QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 30 2008, 03:05 AM) *
Not true.

Telling your workforce about the cranial bombs? That's the bad idea part. wink.gif



This doesn't work - if they don't know, it won;t stop them defecting and you'll just be out of pocket.

If they do know, no-one is going to work for you.
krakjen
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 30 2008, 09:05 AM) *
Telling your workforce about the cranial bombs? That's the bad idea part. wink.gif

No, the best thing is telling them of cranial bombs that doesn't even exists.
Critias
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 30 2008, 02:19 AM) *
This doesn't work - if they don't know, it won;t stop them defecting and you'll just be out of pocket.

If they do know, no-one is going to work for you.

Uhh, you might not be able to stop people that wanted to defect from defecting, but you can very efficiently stop their new patron company (or any given defector) from benefiting from their new business arrangement in any way.

Then you spin it to the rest of your employees about how Brand X tried to kidnap poor Joe from Accounting, and when he stoically refused to go with them, they blew his head off! Oh noes! That wicked, wicked, Brand X!
Sir_Psycho
Pretty good, although wageslaves should have a willpower of 1.

Also, in addition to SINner, I'd give them Combat Paralysis, Blandness, and Phobia: Magic.
Apathy
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Apr 30 2008, 04:56 AM) *
Pretty good, although wageslaves should have a willpower of 1.

Also, in addition to SINner, I'd give them Combat Paralysis, Blandness, and Phobia: Magic.

That's the stereotype of the wageslave, but I suspect the average wageslave in 2070 has stats similar to the average wageslave now. Stats ranging 1-4, mostly 2s and a few 3s. A medley of skills and personal interests at 1-3 with a few specializations giving a very focused skill of 4 or 5 in their specific speciality. For instance, I might have Data Analysis 2 or 3 (Verizon traffic systems +2) and Athletic 1 or 2 (Wrestling +2).
Pyritefoolsgold
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 30 2008, 12:44 AM) *
...by walking out of Fuchi...

You may find this is the difficult part. There's a reason Shadowrunners do Extraction jobs on gifted employees.
masterofm
Changed John Q. Everyman from a software engineer to data entry. My friends point was that a software engineer probably had a bit more equipment, and skill to do his job, so I changed it to a suck job instead.

also adding Combat Paralysis, Blandness, and Phobia: Magic is more of a judgment call. It's not that people won't fight, it's just that generally people like Mr. Everyman just don't want to get involved. 1 in 20 people are magical, so although it is not the majority there is at least one or two mages in the making in each classroom in even a rural public school.

Blandness I view as more of a "you look like everyone and no one" at the same time. I think the majority of people also don't have this, because if you are a shadowrunner w/o the trait then why wouldn't you also not stick out? I don't know it's a judgment call in the end though like I said before.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 30 2008, 04:36 AM) *
Uhh, you might not be able to stop people that wanted to defect from defecting, but you can very efficiently stop their new patron company (or any given defector) from benefiting from their new business arrangement in any way.

Then you spin it to the rest of your employees about how Brand X tried to kidnap poor Joe from Accounting, and when he stoically refused to go with them, they blew his head off! Oh noes! That wicked, wicked, Brand X!


First off, your not going to know who he tried to defect too as they can just disappear the body by the same means they can disappear the employee.

Even ignoring the possibility of malfunctions, and the employee moral crash that will occur when their doctors or other corps point out that your putting bombs in all your employees - its sure to create disengagement which reduces productivity, it still isn't particularly cost effective. My analysis is hamstrung by the fact I cannot remember how much a kink bomb costs. But I reckon it's about 1 grand?

Say 5% of skillwire employees will defect, but you install 100% of them with kink bombs.

Every time a guy defects you prevent the competition from gaining 9 grand of competitive advantage, but you pay 20 grand of yens. so you are actually out of pocket even more. And you've still lost the 9 grand for the guy that blew up. So your our 29 grand per employee that defects, as opposed to 9, and they don;t get 9 grand of advantage.

So now you've created a 29k yens competitive deficit rather than a 18k one, actually making the situation worse. It improves when 12% or so of employees would normally defect, in which case it is cost effective purely on that metric.

QUOTE (Pyritefoolsgold @ Apr 30 2008, 01:25 PM) *
You may find this is the difficult part. There's a reason Shadowrunners do Extraction jobs on gifted employees.


Sure, gifted employees warrant security, as well as executive assisstants and PAs and they are a seperate case - it's worth paying 50k to a runner team to extract them.

But can you really pay someone to tag around low level employees all the time? It's not like there are big silos in the fluff that people can never level ever. Shadow running would be impossible if employees can never leave the premises, as there would be no-one on the streets. It's not worth it to extract them either, as that costs money, because it be cheaper just to hire someone from the barrens.
vladski
You know... on this whole employee/head blowing up, poaching deal... why are all the employees leaving your corp and going elsewhere? Why aren't you getting employees as well? Shouldn't that balance things out for everyone. If all your employees are leaving in droves and other peoples' aren't, I'd say there is somethign really wrong with your business model.

Vlad
Cthulhudreams
Yeah it's insane. Its all built on the premise that everyone treats their employees like crap, trying to put them in indentured slavery, putting bombs in their head, etc. It just requires one slightly innovative approach to employee management - a google or even a JP Morgan or to use the most stoneage example, a Craavath to completely disrupt the market - everyone wants to join the guys that don't literally enslave you.

Given that, it's quite logical (to me) that a jobs for smart creative types such as professional engineers, guys doing IT stuff that agents cannot, management accountants, product designers, etc in SR4 is much like working for an investment bank, law firm, top engineering firm or top notch consultancy today. High pay, long hours, and a fridge on site with free beer after 6, lots of perks like free car services and doctors appointments for all employees, company sponsored ongoing education etc.
masterofm
Ok Cthulhudreams make your version of Shadowrun all nicety nice, and I'll stick to treating everyone like crap.

I play Shadowrun like Cyberpunk. Yes there might be people who run their business model off of google, but hell I would think most places treat you like crap. The dude working at stuffer shack does not get free beer Tuesday, unless he wants to try and steal some beer from the store. The Lone Star cop on the beat is just doing "his job" and does not view that he is part of that thin blue line that keeps the criminals at bay. Tons of people have crap jobs today. All I see in Shadowrun is the only difference is that there is way more people working crap jobs, and unemployment has sky rocketed. To each their own.
Critias
Okay, seriously. You're putting way too much thought and killjoy-effort into stomping all over the joke of putting a cortex bomb into every single clerical worker in a megacorp. Calm down.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (masterofm @ Apr 30 2008, 07:16 PM) *
Ok Cthulhudreams make your version of Shadowrun all nicety nice, and I'll stick to treating everyone like crap.

I play Shadowrun like Cyberpunk. Yes there might be people who run their business model off of google, but hell I would think most places treat you like crap. The dude working at stuffer shack does not get free beer Tuesday, unless he wants to try and steal some beer from the store. The Lone Star cop on the beat is just doing "his job" and does not view that he is part of that thin blue line that keeps the criminals at bay. Tons of people have crap jobs today. All I see in Shadowrun is the only difference is that there is way more people working crap jobs, and unemployment has sky rocketed. To each their own.


hehe, I think my way is less nice, in your world they have a job. Hey, it's crap, but you know, keeps a roof over your head. In my of thinking about the shadowrun world, the 35% of people who do manufacturing and industrial work today got laid off. Remember: No blue collar workers have a job in a world with drones. So thats a 40% unemployment rate. There is no dude who works in the stuffer shake. We've had automated stores since the 1930s, so by 2070 they are pretty sweet. That lays off about half the people in the retail and service industry. Unemployment is cresting 55%

To give you an idea about the hardship and desperation that might be caused by a 55% unemployment rate - the unemployment rate in the great depression in america was only 25%

@Critias,

Sorry, missed the joke - and it's no effort really - that notion has been advanced seriously before and I browse with images off typically. smile.gif
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