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Fuchs
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 17 2008, 02:18 PM) *
Aztlan also has space based weaponry. Any scenario which involves North America turning into a glowing field of glass is not a lose for Aztlan. They lead the world in chemical and biological weapons, have the same nuclear options as everyone else, can drop the same asteroid attacks as any of the other top contenders, and they have the unique ability to gain plot device level powers from large scale catastrophes. Indeed, an all-out nuclear war would involve about 200 million people dying in a very short time, distributed amongst every team. At that point the bunker dwellers in UCAS are left with limited options and the bunker dwellers in Aztlan have completed their Mighty Ritual of Vast Powerâ„¢ and ascended to godhood.


Aztlan isn't a bunch of highly magical blood priests with bones through their nose, it's a bunch of highly magical blood priests who own a frickin space station that uses ion jets to control the weather. This isn't a question of magic versus technology, it's a question of wealth, power, magic, and technology. And the Azzies have you matched or beaten on every one of those axises. The Aztech army is better than you are. The only reason the empire ever loses in the books is because they keep being faced with Luke Skywalkers over and over again who are protected from harm by the needs of the plot. Their actual stuff is just hands down the best.

-Frank


Aztlan only is "the best" because they are a plot device.
CanRay
All the Megas and Countires are Plot Devices! nyahnyah.gif

So are Dragons and the Heavy Twisted Magics (Toxics, Blood, Shedim) are Plot Devices.

After all, this is Shadowrun, not Risk. wink.gif

Even at the most powerful, running as Mercs with artillery and Amoured Fighting Vehicle Support or Pirates with their own Blimp, 'Runners are small, small fish in a very big pond filled with some very hungry, very, very big fish!
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Fuchs @ May 17 2008, 07:53 AM) *
Aztlan only is "the best" because they are a plot device.


But also because all the best equipment you can purchase comes from Tenochtitlan or Detroit.

If you want a high end laser it's an Ares Firelance. If you want a high end Gauss Cannon it's an Aztechnology Itzcoatl. Aztan does not have any inferiority in the weapons department, because half the top grade military equipment in the game has the Made in Aztlan tag on it.

So any argument that is predicated on the idea that Aztlan doesn't have the skills to pay the bills at conventional war is laughable. They have all the shinies.

QUOTE (Leofski)
Do Aztechnology still hold the Tlaloc or similar stations? Because if they do noone else can win with against space-based biological weapons launched at North America.


Yes they do. Aztlan is not unique in having death effects in space - Ares has Eden after all. But the fact that they have it ensures that no one can go up against Aztlan and "win" without direct intervention by powerful demon lords.

QUOTE (Kerberos)
Are you basing this on Bloodzilla or something else? Because I don't think you can base the discussion on a rules hole that clearly doesn't exist in the actual universe.


Actually basing that assessment on the novel Bloodsport. Aztec priests specifically have the ability to do mighty rituals of vast power with respect to large numbers of people getting killed to siphon power off of that and do "stuff" which is "powerful" and doesn't have game mechanics. So while everyone in North America "loses" a multi-faction war with WMDs in North America, the Aztec government has the ability to "win" with the special victory condition "everyone loses."

And that's really the only way to win a full Nuclear/Chemical/Biological/Space exchange between multiple competent and ruthless high tech nations. You sure as hell aren't winning by any normal means. It's like a game of Nuclear War where several factions start the game with entire decks worth of weapons in their hands already, only one of the teams automatically wins the game if everyone or even almost everyone dies.

-Frank
Kerberos
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 17 2008, 08:45 AM) *
But also because all the best equipment you can purchase comes from Tenochtitlan or Detroit.

If you want a high end laser it's an Ares Firelance. If you want a high end Gauss Cannon it's an Aztechnology Itzcoatl. Aztan does not have any inferiority in the weapons department, because half the top grade military equipment in the game has the Made in Aztlan tag on it.

So any argument that is predicated on the idea that Aztlan doesn't have the skills to pay the bills at conventional war is laughable. They have all the shinies.

Ares is the world leader in both weapons and aerospace. Just how much they outclass Aztech I can't say, but they do have an edge.


QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 17 2008, 08:45 AM) *
Actually basing that assessment on the novel Bloodsport. Aztec priests specifically have the ability to do mighty rituals of vast power with respect to large numbers of people getting killed to siphon power off of that and do "stuff" which is "powerful" and doesn't have game mechanics.

OK, I haven't read that one, so I really can't comment on the power of that ritual.


QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 17 2008, 08:45 AM) *
So while everyone in North America "loses" a multi-faction war with WMDs in North America, the Aztec government has the ability to "win" with the special victory condition "everyone loses."

And that's really the only way to win a full Nuclear/Chemical/Biological/Space exchange between multiple competent and ruthless high tech nations. You sure as hell aren't winning by any normal means. It's like a game of Nuclear War where several factions start the game with entire decks worth of weapons in their hands already, only one of the teams automatically wins the game if everyone or even almost everyone dies.

-Frank

Well as I said I can't comment on the power of the ritual, but I think it's worth considering that basically everyone hates Aztlan. Whether the war is conventional or non-conventional some sort or agreement to crush Aztlan first is quite realistic.
Fortune
Edit: Nothing to see here. eek.gif
Fuchs
Novels are not really a good thing to base anything on, IMHO.
FriendoftheDork
Gentlemen! No fighting! This is the war room!

biggrin.gif
Fuchs
In the Q&A chat, the devs stated that 50% of all nukes in SR canon did not work properly or underperformed. That could be taken as 50% working as they should, and could mean one simply launches twice the nukes at a target as a precaution.
Fuchs
Peter Taylor just said that several nukes performed as they should - and named the Winternight nukes that went off as an example. This does seem to contradict the quotes above, although the quote was just the opinion of a character in the book, not game mechanics, so he (the character) may just have been mistaken.
Kerberos
QUOTE (Fuchs @ May 17 2008, 12:48 PM) *
Peter Taylor just said that several nukes performed as they should - and named the Winternight nukes that went off as an example. This does seem to contradict the quotes above, although the quote was just the opinion of a character in the book, not game mechanics, so he (the character) may just have been mistaken.

I don't see what possible point there would be to having a character be mistaken about something like that. Far more likely that PT either meant that it worked somewhat as opposed to not working at all which has also happened, or that PT was mistaken and misremembered.
hyzmarca
The next war in North America will not be fought on a battlefield with guns, bombs, dones, and magic. It will be fought in hidden backrooms with secret alliances, secret deals, secret information, and vast sums of money. And, in the end, there will be only one winner - The United States of America.

The New Revolution is happening right now, quietly, behind closed doors. When powerful men and women form the many countries that rose from the ashes of the USA meet to take about the things that powerful men and women talk about, thy'e really taking about the revolution, advancing it slowly, one stop at a time. When it is all over the many disparate powers of North America will be one Superpower once again.
Fuchs
Synner was pretty clear. And the character in question could have been fooled, his data tampered with, or he might have committed an error.

All in all, we can assume that half of the nukes work as they should - so, sending double the number (or 4 times the number) should be SOP for a country that once planned to send 67 nukes at the same target.
Kerberos
QUOTE (Fuchs @ May 17 2008, 01:12 PM) *
Synner was pretty clear.


That doesn't mean he isn't wrong.

QUOTE (Fuchs @ May 17 2008, 01:12 PM) *
And the character in question could have been fooled, his data tampered with, or he might have committed an error.

That doesn't make any sense that I can see either in game or out of game. In game you really are going to have trouble tampering with the perceived power of an Earthquake. Even if you managed to tamper with the seismic reading one would think that someone would notice how many building fell down. Also who has an interest in manipulating with the perceived yield? Out of game what would the point be story-wise?

I'm not saying it's impossible that the character was wrong, this is a game everything is possible, whether it makes sense or not, but it strikes me as far more plausible that Synner misremembered.

QUOTE (Fuchs @ May 17 2008, 01:12 PM) *
All in all, we can assume that half of the nukes work as they should - so, sending double the number (or 4 times the number) should be SOP for a country that once planned to send 67 nukes at the same target.

We really can't conclude that because we don't know why nukes don't work properly. If it is just that now 50% of all nukes randomly don't work then you're right, but there could be other possibilities to like some powerful ritual magic which works according to parameters we don't know, so either all nukes might work or none, depending on circumstances.
Kerberos
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 17 2008, 01:11 PM) *
The next war in North America will not be fought on a battlefield with guns, bombs, dones, and magic. It will be fought in hidden backrooms with secret alliances, secret deals, secret information, and vast sums of money. And, in the end, there will be only one winner - The United States of America.

The New Revolution is happening right now, quietly, behind closed doors. When powerful men and women form the many countries that rose from the ashes of the USA meet to take about the things that powerful men and women talk about, thy'e really taking about the revolution, advancing it slowly, one stop at a time. When it is all over the many disparate powers of North America will be one Superpower once again.

I doubt that. An undivided USA would be to powerful vis-a-vis the megas and interfere with the atmosphere of the game.
Fuchs
The megas have been powered down lately anyway.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ May 17 2008, 09:48 AM) *
Gentlemen! No fighting! This is the war room!

biggrin.gif

...he'll see everything [gestures] he'll see the Big Board!

(apologies, couldn't resist as this is my all time #1 fave) grinbig.gif
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Fuchs @ May 17 2008, 02:05 PM) *
The megas have been powered down lately anyway.


Evidence? Cause I sure can't find any. I mean, sure, there are more of them than before but that didn't weaken them as a group.

No nation has any space assets (at least as of Target: Wastelands). The UCAS pays Ares to maintain their spy sats for gods sake. As far as I know the only people with Thor Shots are Ares and SK (Frank says Aztechnology has them but I can't find a reference to it). Renraku provided the NSA's programs as of 2064. Ares provided most of their weapons.

Sure, the megas may be acting less overtly but they aren't noticeably weaker.

As for nukes, the quote I provided didn't say that they didn't go boom. Just that the boom was smaller than it should have been. Apparently a game developer said its 50/50. Those aren't odds you depend on. Unless you think the UCAS has an arsenal at least equal to the former soviet unions.

----
Nations mean next to nothing in SR. They don't control any of the infrastructure, the megas do. So if a nation gets uppity and moves on a mega, that mega just activates all of the self destructs in all of their assets in said nation and there go all the power plants, all the matrix connections, all the farms, all the airports, all the police stations, all the weapons plants, etc. Sure it weakens the mega, but they would do it. As a group they can't allow their sovereignty to be challenged if they want to keep their power. But those challenges cost them too much to allow half measures in putting them down, they have to make an example. Hell, the megas were willing to Thor Shot an individual who was relatively unimportant. What do you think would happen to DC and all military bases?
------

The focus of the game has just changed a bit, to being more on smalelr street level events. That doesn't mean that the actual balance of power has changed in the slightest.
Kerberos
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 17 2008, 02:23 PM) *
Evidence? Cause I sure can't find any. I mean, sure, there are more of them than before but that didn't weaken them as a group.

I think Fuchs is right. The Renraku Archeology situation had UCAS infringe on the sovereignty of a mega. Also imperial Japan has been exercising power over the Japanacorps lately IIRC. The Megas have gone from almighty to merely very powerful. I do however think that reuniting the USA would take this trend to far.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Kerberos @ May 17 2008, 03:11 PM) *
I think Fuchs is right. The Renraku Archeology situation had UCAS infringe on the sovereignty of a mega. Also imperial Japan has been exercising power over the Japanacorps lately IIRC. The Megas have gone from almighty to merely very powerful. I do however think that reuniting the USA would take this trend to far.


Renraku Archeology: The other mega's backed the UCAS and the UCAS had a clear cut, unambiguous reason for doing what they did.

Imperial Japan: IIRC the emperor is trying to get other mega's into Japan and change how the Japanese people feel about the mega's, he isn't trying to break the power of the megas as a whole.

Again, the apparent balance of power changes all the time; especially in regards to any given mega vs. any given nation. But the mega's, collectively, are far more powerful than any group of nations. What it comes down to is that the mega's own and control the infrastructure. So long as that is true then the nations have no power that the mega's don't allow them to have.

Let's take the Renraku Archeology situation and remove Deus having taken it over. Instead the UCAS just decides to go and grab it one day. What happens? A) Renraku tells the UCAS to stop and surrender everyone of the people involved or the nuclear reactors are going to go boom and take out Seattle.
B) The Corporate Court tells the UCAS to stop and surrender everyone involved or the UCAS is going to get well acquainted with Thor Shots.

----
The mega's, collectively, can not allow any nation to regain sovereignty over them. It's simply bad for business. So as a group they act to keep their sovereignty, and as a group they have the ability to do that.
----

Hell, look at Seattle. It's a city and it has its own embassy's for gods sake. The person polling second in their governors race wants Seattle to break away from the UCAS. That doesn't sound like a nation that has any real power to me.
Kyoto Kid
...two other WMDs:

The FAE: In some circles referred to as the "Poor Man's Nuke". Though not a "city killer" an FAE is still a highly destructive weapon usually delivered by aerial drop but which also can be trucked into a location and detonated. Their one big drawback is size, but if you have something like a Lockheed C-60 Titan or HR Skytruck (or bring it in by truck) this isn't much of an issue. Like the Iron Bomb in Arsenal, it has no guidance system (basically it is s huge drum of fuel), but pinpoint accuracy isn't necessarily as important as for a say Bunker Buster.

The Dirty Bomb: this device designed to basically disburse highly radioactive material in an area. These use conventional explosives jacketed in a shell of radioactive substance. They are not immediate kill weapons (outside the central blast zone) but instead rely on the delayed effect of radiation poisoning. The one major drawback, like gas attacks they are subject to wind and weather conditions. The advantage, normal protective gear doesn't always work against them (depending on the isotope used).

I have employed both of these in past campaigns. The FAE's were in delivery trucks rigged with shaped cutting charges that were timed to breach the body shell moments before the FAE detonated. The dirty bombs were set off in a similar manner in crowded areas and employed P210 as the radioactive agent.

QUOTE (Seraph Kast)
A war would get ugly fast. Magic allowing for speed and protection would make battlefields much larger than ever before. Add to that the effects of things like...ghouls, conscripted and let loose in enemy cities. Cyberzombie death squads. Full cyborg conversion platoons. I think whatever nation was able to fund the production of such weapons by the Corps that have them, would end up on top. Although, more than likely there would be more blood than territory changing hands.

...you must have seen my playbook for RiS or had Bill Belichick secretly taping my gaming sessions. grinbig.gif

Jokes aside, save for the ghoul army (not a bad idea mind you) I used a number of those elements in my RiS campaign. The CZs were particularly nasty. Most were political prisoners of the Serbian regime and highly skilled POWs who were sent to a special "re-education" facility (why waste a good manpower resource?). As part of the magical contingent, I had a cult of Toxic Shamans known as the "Cleansing Light" who followed The Way of the Atom.
Emperor Tippy
You can actually make FAE's easy with Arsenal.

11 Kilograms of Rating 15 Liquid Explosives, 1 Rating 10 Atomizer, and 1 Detonator.

Think of it as a basket ball on a parachute. And the basket ball is filled with explosives.

An Airplane rolls them out and each basket ball fills 10 cubic meters of air with rating 15 explosives. Then they all go boom at once.
Seraph Kast
It just seems to be the natural way things would escalate. No wars start off as nuclear ones, because everyone in charge values that power and their own skin. A terrorist group might do it, but actually launching nukes is a no go unless you are certain that it will be over when it hits, and that no one else will take exception. America is too crowded to have either of those certainties. So, more than likely, you'd see the "comventional superweapons" get rolled out. Magic of course...but think of what it would take a to kill a group of 6 or 8 cyberzombies, working together. I statted out an ork one a few days ago, just to see. Didn't use any full replacement parts so that I could take full advantage of bioware and gene therapy. Everything was deltagrade. The stats on one, with augmentations included ended up around 14-16 in Body, Strength, and Agility. Reaction was about 12. It would roll about 47 dice for damage resistance tests on ballistics, making it capable of being immune to damn near anything personnel carryable, even assault cannons. And it wasn't even really that obvious, except magically, I'd assume.

This was at -2 Essence, and could have been pumped much higher with the adding of cybereyes, ears, headware, and other obsevation mods. Plus the bioware to improve mental stats. Six of them could literally take on a small army. Acting in surprise they could carry enough hardware to take out anything shy of a tank. Plus, they could probably dodge tanks all day. grinbig.gif Granted, they're several million nuyen.gif each, but hey.

Cyborgs are cheaper I'd assume, but also more stable, at least in terms of not suiciding themselves. Also not quite so devastating, but still nasty.

And lets not even get into the fact that any culture that can manage to produce these sorts of things could easily be able to produce powered armor that could let even moderately cybered warriors become death machines.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Seraph Kast)
And lets not even get into the fact that any culture that can manage to produce these sorts of things could easily be able to produce powered armor that could let even moderately cybered warriors become death machines.

...imagine an squad of Robocops, without Directive 4 who create a background count...

...then imagine them in exoskeletons and Gyro harnessess with belt fed mini guns...

...now imagine thumbing through the chargen rules to replace the character that just met up with them. grinbig.gif

...I'm not a vegm.gif, really, I'm not... [cackle]
Emperor Tippy
I'm making what I feel is the standard solider of 2070 and I have two quick questions:
1)Does Enhanced Articulation (+1 dice to all physical skills linked to physical attributes) affect the augmented skill limit or is it on top of that?
2)Does bioware like Enhanced Articulation apply if you are using an Active Soft and Skill Wires?
Shiloh
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ May 17 2008, 09:49 PM) *
The Dirty Bomb: this device designed to basically disburse highly radioactive material in an area.


In pretty much all circumstances, you can achieve better results by expending your efforts on getting large quantities of shrapnel-generating HE into place. Explosives just aren't effective ways of dispersing material.
Kyoto Kid
...again it depends on the conditions. An airburst designed to create a thick cloud of radioactive smoke and dust to drift over an area contaminated with a particularly insidious and toxic isotope such as 210Po that is inhaled and/or ingested can still be effective. Basically, a fatal dose of 210Po through inhalation vector is only about 10ng with an active half life of 37 days and a biological half life of 50 days.

Granted this is primarily an Antipersonnel weapon that would usually be employed by terrorists or resistance forces, but could be encountered in urban battlezones.

Fortune
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 18 2008, 07:55 AM) *
Does Enhanced Articulation (+1 dice to all physical skills linked to physical attributes) affect the augmented skill limit or is it on top of that?


No.

Enhanced Articulation is a Dice Pool modifier, and as such has no effect on the Skill itself, or any limits or maximums.

QUOTE
Does bioware like Enhanced Articulation apply if you are using an Active Soft and Skill Wires?


Yes.

As a Dice Pool modifier, it applies its bonus any time a Physical Skill linked to a Physical Attribute is used. Even if the character doesn't actually have the Skill being used.
hyzmarca
The megas are almighty today. All one has to do is say "well, gee, that Iraqi oil sure could make us a lot of money" and, bam, the shock and awe comes down hard.

If anything, a non-balkanized system is better for the bottom line. The people with money always call the shots, if not officially then in back rooms. Previously, the wealthy had a great deal of influence on the leadership of any country, and republics in particular; with the advent of electronic voting the money men literally have total control over who gets elected. All they have to do is tell the machine who is supposed to win and it'll spit out the correct winner without regard to the actual count. All the USA really needs to be totally mega friendly is explicit Constitutional protection for the ideals of classic English Capitalism. Formerly, such protections were implicit but were illegally stripped away by the Supere Court due to political expediency in order to stop FDR's attempt to pack the court when all of his New Deal legislation was consistently found to be unconstitutional.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ May 18 2008, 12:07 AM) *
...again it depends on the conditions. An airburst designed to create a thick cloud of radioactive smoke and dust to drift over an area contaminated with a particularly insidious and toxic isotope such as 210Po that is inhaled and/or ingested can still be effective. Basically, a fatal dose of 210Po through inhalation vector is only about 10ng with an active half life of 37 days and a biological half life of 50 days.

Granted this is primarily an Antipersonnel weapon that would usually be employed by terrorists or resistance forces, but could be encountered in urban battlezones.

It's simply not a combat weapon. It might well kill a lot of troops in a fortnight, if the wind conditions and other weather are absolutely perfect, but none will succumb immediately, you risk the cloud hitting your own forces and you probably get a better result by increasing the weight of artillery on a city block. It's not like it's easy to get hold of disperse-worthy quantities of deeply fatal radioisotopes.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Shiloh @ May 17 2008, 07:27 PM) *
It's simply not a combat weapon. It might well kill a lot of troops in a fortnight, if the wind conditions and other weather are absolutely perfect, but none will succumb immediately, you risk the cloud hitting your own forces and you probably get a better result by increasing the weight of artillery on a city block. It's not like it's easy to get hold of disperse-worthy quantities of deeply fatal radioisotopes.


It's a strategic deterrent weapon. A salted nuke can make a fairly large area uninhabitable for upwards of 70 years. If detonated in the proper locations and at the right heights you can make the entire world uninhabitable with less than 20 bombs. So if a nation says "If attacked my salted nukes go boom" then its highly unlikely that any sane person or nation will openly attack them.
Particle_Beam
I thought the New Revolution was
[ Spoiler ]
devil.gif
Fortune
Don't bet on it. wink.gif
Blue eyes
Lets hope none of the nations are stupid enough to engage in a full scale war.

No nation has a clear cut edge in my opinion: some nations might have a military edge while other nations have a clear magical power edge.
Besides it seems to me that each nation if you have a read through of "Shadows of North America" already has its hands full of internal problems, and definetely dont have the time nor resources to engage in such a war.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 18 2008, 01:30 AM) *
It's a strategic deterrent weapon. A salted nuke...

We were talking about conventionally powered *dirty* bombs: Polonium scattered by an HE charge. Not thermonuclear devices.
Kerberos
QUOTE (Seraph Kast @ May 17 2008, 05:17 PM) *
It just seems to be the natural way things would escalate. No wars start off as nuclear ones, because everyone in charge values that power and their own skin. A terrorist group might do it, but actually launching nukes is a no go unless you are certain that it will be over when it hits, and that no one else will take exception. America is too crowded to have either of those certainties. So, more than likely, you'd see the "comventional superweapons" get rolled out. Magic of course...but think of what it would take a to kill a group of 6 or 8 cyberzombies, working together. I statted out an ork one a few days ago, just to see. Didn't use any full replacement parts so that I could take full advantage of bioware and gene therapy. Everything was deltagrade. The stats on one, with augmentations included ended up around 14-16 in Body, Strength, and Agility. Reaction was about 12. It would roll about 47 dice for damage resistance tests on ballistics, making it capable of being immune to damn near anything personnel carryable, even assault cannons.

And what would you do when they brought in something that's not man portable? Doesn't have to be extreme even, heavy machine guns would do the trick, though air strikes would be better. Cyberzombies might be close to invincible in a street level game, but the cost would make their use relatively limited in combat. You could even hurt a Cyber zombie with something as primitive as an assault rifle on full auto. Only a box or two each shot, but a decently cybered up samuria is ever so much cheaper than a zombie. I could probably build 20-50 Samurais for the same price as one Zombie. What did they cost exactly?
Rajaat99
I've seen a lot of people taking about who has space weapons and who doesn't. Remember, space platforms and stations can be shot down too.
Earlydawn
QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ May 18 2008, 02:45 PM) *
I've seen a lot of people taking about who has space weapons and who doesn't. Remember, space platforms and stations can be shot down too.
True, although you're talking about using very expensive, specialized anti-orbital weapon systems that tend to create a very big intelligence footprint.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Shiloh @ May 17 2008, 05:27 PM) *
It's simply not a combat weapon. It might well kill a lot of troops in a fortnight, if the wind conditions and other weather are absolutely perfect, but none will succumb immediately, you risk the cloud hitting your own forces and you probably get a better result by increasing the weight of artillery on a city block. It's not like it's easy to get hold of disperse-worthy quantities of deeply fatal radioisotopes.

...true, as I mentioned dirty bombs do have their drawbacks and are not really battlefield weapons, but in the hands of terrorists who have no concern for their own safety or that of others, they can be very potent weapons. Think of it, bomb goes off, some are killed by the initial blast a scrub team comes in and cleans the site up. In the following weeks people who were in the area or down wind of the epicentre start falling ill and begin to die. The bomb has still done what it meant to do and in a much more insidious manner. As a matter of fact, an incendiary device is actually preferable for dispersing 210Po.

Then there is, as Emperor Tippy mentioned, the situation where you just want to make an area unusable for years or even decades by the oppos by setting off a salted bomb. This was a tactic the Serbian special forces used when they withdrew from an area in my RiS campaign. It could also be a viable "parting shot" scenario for a desperate regime in the event they are toppled (basically it's saying, "if we can't keep it, you won't want it" - remember what Saddam did to the Kuwaiti oil fields in '91 after withdrawing his troops).

On the availability of dispensable isotopes, Contrary to what one may think, a number of isotopes are actually readily obtainable as they are used in everyday industry. For example 210Po is commonly used for eliminating static, removing dust from photographic films & air in clean rooms, and believe it or not, even water fluoridation (maybe ol' General Ripper was on to something eh? grinbig.gif). While in RL, the NEC and EPA claim it is difficult to procure any significant amount of the isotope (mind you we are speaking in fractions of a gram), purchases of up to 16 Curies of 210Po can be made without having to register it with the NRC. That is enough for about 5,000 lethal doses. Granted this amount is pretty hefty for a single "above board" industrial purchase, but maybe not so much where the black market would be concerned. The median toxic dose is estimated at .4 millicuries (or roughly .00000009g).

Also an interesting note from the IRSN (a European Nuclear Watchdog institute): "Polonium-210 is found particularly in tobacco leaves, which explains why it is found in greater quantities in smokers."

Now let's move to Shadowrun world where high tech electronic components are everywhere (hence many more clean rooms to supply), government regulatory bodies (save for maybe in the UK, and Aztlan) are fairly impotent if not on the take, and you can buy military grade weapons and equipment if you have enough nuyen.gif and the right contacts. I would say encountering Smoky and Salted Bombs would be a distinct possibility.

...yeah, right behind art, physics was my favourite class in school.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 17 2008, 06:21 PM) *
with the advent of electronic voting the money men literally have total control over who gets elected. All they have to do is tell the machine who is supposed to win and it'll spit out the correct winner without regard to the actual count.


You know that in Australia the electronic voting rigs are an open source program administered by the government in conjunction with some university academics? Scrutineers were even allowed to review the code being loaded on the machines from compile time and verify them afterwards.

The US is really the only nation determined to give money to Diebold for bad product. You can even download the Australian version which runs on a standard beige box with a touch screen for free!
WearzManySkins
As a person who is Federally Certified to Handle Radioactive Isotopes. Americium 242 and Beryllium makes for interesting effects it is a neutron emitter so most survey meter (ie Geiger counters) will not detect it. Such a isotope is very common and even today easy to get. frown.gif

But use of such dirty weapons on any scale is a Pyrrhic victory,yes you may have won the battle/war but in the end you die due the damage done to the earth's ecology.

The use of a weapon that kills long after the twits that fired/exploded it is wrong. Merely because the other side uses it first,,,two wrongs do not make a right. That is the main reason why I was not PRP in the USN, but they still let me "guard" nuclear devices. grinbig.gif

Yes our wonderful US Government has more than a business relationship with Diebold. frown.gif

WMS
Kerberos
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ May 18 2008, 07:47 PM) *
Then there is, as Emperor Tippy mentioned, the situation where you just want to make an area unusable for years or even decades by the oppos by setting off a salted bomb. This was a tactic the Serbian special forces used when they withdrew from an area in my RiS campaign.

What is RiS?
Muspellsheimr
I have to go with UCAS, although the Tir might come out on top. I just don't see Aztlan winning for some reason.
Adarael
Just as a note, no mega is ever going to be fielding armies of cyberzombies. Squads of 6-8 like Kast said, but probably never any more than that. They're exceptionally effective as commando squads, but as soon as you have an enemy that knows where they are and as soon as they start going "Grah, I punch a hole in your tank!" people are liable just to start area-slamming with cruise missiles and artillery. It's best to think of Cyberzombies as man-shaped rapid response tanks...not as people. So you'd probably end up having to deal with them in the same way.

Also, they're wang expensive. Not just in terms of 'ware. In terms of what it takes to make them. Costs have gone down, but that shit takes some major mojo. You'd be better off with Cyborgs, in general.
Fuchs
Or drones. The main vulnerability of drones seems to be hacking, but if you drop some wireless disabled combat drones with the order "shoot anything that moves or looks like a threat for 48 hours within this area, then shut down/activate wireless for more orders" and evacuate the area you've got a nice force to occupy enemy forces or block key areas.

Not to mention kamikaze-drone-missiles just carrying explosives.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 18 2008, 08:26 PM) *
You know that in Australia the electronic voting rigs are an open source program administered by the government in conjunction with some university academics? Scrutineers were even allowed to review the code being loaded on the machines from compile time and verify them afterwards.

The US is really the only nation determined to give money to Diebold for bad product. You can even download the Australian version which runs on a standard beige box with a touch screen for free!


It is woefully naive to presume that those scrutineers aren't in on the fix and that the machines they were allowed to examine weren't simply decoys.

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ May 18 2008, 09:05 PM) *
But use of such dirty weapons on any scale is a Pyrrhic victory,yes you may have won the battle/war but in the end you die due the damage done to the earth's ecology.


This is only if you don't have a NBC fortified bunker large enough to hold a breeding population with sufficient stores for long-term survival or a self-sufficient space colony.

QUOTE
The use of a weapon that kills long after the twits that fired/exploded it is wrong. Merely because the other side uses it first,,,two wrongs do not make a right. That is the main reason why I was not PRP in the USN, but they still let me "guard" nuclear devices. grinbig.gif

I'd disagree there. That two wrongs do, in fact, make a right is a necessary conceit of all systems of justice and, indeed, all but the most abstract concepts of justice.
With the nuclear balance of terror, it is substantially more clear cut and pragmatic. If one side doesn't think that the other has the balls to retaliate in kind, then that side will attack. If one side really doesn't have the balls to retaliate in kind then it will be totally annihilated. A nuclear strike demands proportional punishment or else it will simply be followed by total nuclear annihilation.

QUOTE (Adarael @ May 19 2008, 03:21 AM) *
Just as a note, no mega is ever going to be fielding armies of cyberzombies. Squads of 6-8 like Kast said, but probably never any more than that. They're exceptionally effective as commando squads, but as soon as you have an enemy that knows where they are and as soon as they start going "Grah, I punch a hole in your tank!" people are liable just to start area-slamming with cruise missiles and artillery. It's best to think of Cyberzombies as man-shaped rapid response tanks...not as people. So you'd probably end up having to deal with them in the same way.

Also, they're wang expensive. Not just in terms of 'ware. In terms of what it takes to make them. Costs have gone down, but that shit takes some major mojo. You'd be better off with Cyborgs, in general.


Cyberzombies are essentially waste products of immortality research. As such, they might as well be put to use, but few groups go out of their way to make them with the intent that they be used in combat.

Zak
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 19 2008, 02:35 AM) *
With the nuclear balance of terror, it is substantially more clear cut and pragmatic. If one side doesn't think that the other has the balls to retaliate in kind, then that side will attack. If one side really doesn't have the balls to retaliate in kind then it will be totally annihilated. A nuclear strike demands proportional punishment or else it will simply be followed by total nuclear annihilation.


I loved the math of who manages to have more survivors after the nuklear attacks, back in the good old days before overkill was reached.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Fuchs @ May 19 2008, 02:45 AM) *
Or drones. The main vulnerability of drones seems to be hacking, but if you drop some wireless disabled combat drones with the order "shoot anything that moves or looks like a threat for 48 hours within this area, then shut down/activate wireless for more orders" and evacuate the area you've got a nice force to occupy enemy forces or block key areas.

Not to mention kamikaze-drone-missiles just carrying explosives.


You mean the drones with a 6 hour operational time before recharging? And the drones that can be taken out with an air strike if the area they control is really critical? Drones are good but there aren't that many ground combat models (2 in 4e IIRC).

And the vast majority of combat will be in Urban environments and be carried out by lighting warfare and raids conducted by what are currently Special Forces and the Air Force.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 19 2008, 03:35 AM) *
It is woefully naive to presume that those scrutineers aren't in on the fix and that the machines they were allowed to examine weren't simply decoys.

This is only if you don't have a NBC fortified bunker large enough to hold a breeding population with sufficient stores for long-term survival or a self-sufficient space colony.

I'd disagree there. That two wrongs do, in fact, make a right is a necessary conceit of all systems of justice and, indeed, all but the most abstract concepts of justice.
With the nuclear balance of terror, it is substantially more clear cut and pragmatic. If one side doesn't think that the other has the balls to retaliate in kind, then that side will attack. If one side really doesn't have the balls to retaliate in kind then it will be totally annihilated. A nuclear strike demands proportional punishment or else it will simply be followed by total nuclear annihilation.

Cyberzombies are essentially waste products of immortality research. As such, they might as well be put to use, but few groups go out of their way to make them with the intent that they be used in combat.

HMM in that Bunker after an exchange spoken about here you had better have 100+ years worth of food but more is going to be needed due the time it will take the ecology to become habitable. The Space colony will have to be self sufficient for a 1,000 years. Either way any survivors will be vilifying any responsible for the suicide for many surviving generations.

I disagree on using or not using weapons of species/ecological suicide. Since the possession of such is by itself an act of terrorism, which most governments of 2070 will give lip service to not supporting acts of terrorism. I do not agree with the Balance of Terror today or in the future, no government is WORTH the results of species/ecological suicide. That is a capability of the same minds that produced the Death Camps and other nice things that semantics claim were necessary for the good of the people.

WMS
Fuchs
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 19 2008, 11:33 AM) *
You mean the drones with a 6 hour operational time before recharging? And the drones that can be taken out with an air strike if the area they control is really critical? Drones are good but there aren't that many ground combat models (2 in 4e IIRC).

And the vast majority of combat will be in Urban environments and be carried out by lighting warfare and raids conducted by what are currently Special Forces and the Air Force.


Whatever can take out a drone can take out SF forces too, and drones are cheaper to "waste" on blocking the enemy or delaying their progress through an area. If 6 hours is the limit, drop some drone recharge station as well.

And with the modification rules, we've got an unlimited number of models for drones.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Fuchs @ May 19 2008, 07:31 AM) *
Whatever can take out a drone can take out SF forces too, and drones are cheaper to "waste" on blocking the enemy or delaying their progress through an area. If 6 hours is the limit, drop some drone recharge station as well.


Actually, you have no real reason to block said position in the first place. Power plants, military bases, and airports cover most of what you need to hold. With helicopters and airplanes the ground in between 2 locations is relatively unimportant. Supply's can likewise be airlifted.

QUOTE
And with the modification rules, we've got an unlimited number of models for drones.

And most of them can't be made much more effective.
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