Shrug. I merely referenced the first appearance of the figure. I didn't provide or even imply any interpretation.

As to the subject of standard pay, I don't think there is a 'standard shadowrun fee structure', as every run, and indeed everybody's game is different. You need to find place where everyone is comfortable, then mix it up a little to keep things just a little on edge. At least, that's my opinion.

It depends on the expenses. If a team of 4 runners gets 100K for a run, but spends 20K on fake sins for the job, another 10K for nanopaste disguises, and another 10K to replace the weapons they used and dropped and the ammo spent afterwards, they're already down to 15K each. If there's special gear used up or lost during the job (like drones), that's another expense to take care of.

One such run per month would cover a medium to high lifestyle, but not that much will be saved up (not after upgrades, and set back expenses like medical costs).

If beginning runners get payed enough to support a medium to high lifestyle with the most basic of runs once a month, why doesn't every ganger and their dog do it?

Well, you could play where all the PCs reinvent and completely re-equip themselves every mission. Depending on who you are running against, that may not be necessary.

Anything that you might destroy or lose during a run is a legitimate expense, but depending on the run you won't necessarily lose or use anything up. If the job doesn't pay enough to compensate for losing your drones, then don't put them in danger. If the job doesn't pay enough to replace a lost SIN, try not to put your SIN in a position to be compromised.

The unexpected does happen, and that's part of the fun.

I have noticed that 'bread and butter' runs that pay for lifestyle costs have been described as 'not even hitting the table'. I can't get my head around this at all. Does this mean you only actually RP the big money runs? The infiltration into Ares highest security labs, to steal the CEOs clone type runs? And the smaller runs are just assumed to be completed? Why bother with money, lifestyle or availability at all? When the GM asks where you got your Gauss Rifle, you can just say, I pulled a couple of 10K jobs, and bought it with the proceeds.

Actually, while we do play out every run, and usually every day of "civilian life" even, we do not bother with money, lifestyle or availability anymore. Gear is aquired by GM approval, normal gear not requiring anything, special gear (like aforementioned Gauss Rifle) for example needing a run.

In my campaign, not every ganger has the skills, smarts, and dicispline needed for shadowrunning in that price range.

Note the 'most basic of runs' qualifier.

So you are saying the most basic of runs for beginning runners shouldn't pay 100K?
(Which, incidentally is what Tippy is claiming, that they should...)

EDIT: clarification

I think it depends on what counts as "the most basic runs". Tippy seems to consider runners as the high-paid pros hired for special, high-risk tasks. I doubt he considers "go and persuade Mom and Pop to sell their store to my firm so I can start with my mall project" a job for shadowrunners.

Personally, in the classic campaigns I ran (my current is mafia-centric, so not the same), where the usual set up was "Mr. Johnson calls fixer, who sets up a meeting with the team", the campaigns started at a point where the runners did get aforementioned high-paying jobs. We did not play out how the various characters started in the shadows and gained the skills and contacts to get those jobs. In a way, we defined shadowrunners as "those people doing high-paying, high-risk jobs", and anyone not doing those jobs was not a runner yet but a ganger, wanna-be, or greenhorn, and usually would not get to meet Mr. Johnson at all, but would get some jobs from fixers. But a "beginning runner" was, back then in my campaigns, some who started doing those high-paying jobs, not someone who started doing minor courier work or break-ins in unguarded warehouses.

These days, I do things a bit differently, but then, we do not use money anymore, and have a different set up than "Fixer/Johnson", so it's a moot point.

It's a matter of semantics and intended "power level" I think.

Actually, as far as I can tell, he's saying a starting 400 BP runner should. Considering that 400 BP runners are WELL above gangers, this doesn't seem unreasonable if you run a fairly paranoid game of Shadowrun.

Well, to get the high paying high risk jobs, you'd need an established reputation and are, by definition, not a beginning runner...
You may begin playing you character at this point, but the character doesn't begin his career here...
The first runs are the shitty ones where you barely break even and risk your life for little to no money...
While I can understand skipping to the high end spectrum of play, the low end still exists...

And paying someone new to the game a minimum of 100K for a milk run is just plain crazy, no matter how you rationalize it...

Considering the precautions he's mentioned, I highly doubt there are milk runs involved in his games.

As I said, just because he skips them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Then the only question is: Do the runners start out when the players start a campaign, or are they established runners? I do not recall anything abut that in the rules, and I consider that a matter of personal preference.

Look, the only real basis for a job is what your runners background and lifestyle determines they should get payed.

If your team are refugees from Mr and Mrs Smith with high lifestyles, they need to ger 10k Per Person PLUS expenses per job just to break even if they do a job a month. So you seriously need to throw down 70-80k on a job. Then give them 80k jobs for your team of 4. However, make sure their run is complex and testing - big runs for big money

Its a totally different equation if your team are all homeless alcholics who live in cardboard boxes in the barrens. 5 k is big money here. So you can have a job where you go steal mr big shot gangers bike or some shit once a month.

Edit: This makes it important that players have the same lifestyle, and I actually mandate that they do.

There a couple of other factors.
Like if the mage uses a bound spirit he's out like 3 grand, and a drone costs the rigger that much too so if you are throwing lots of them down, push the team towards the high lifestyle, big money end of the bracket.

Finally you need to make sure the street sammies get enough money to pay for new bling as they are powered by money rather than karma. This is easy to fix though, if the street sammies are getting to good, hand out more karma and foci, if the street sammies are sucking, hand out the cash as though it was halloween, except you are giving out the candy and the candy is fat wads of cash

Anything else is really just bollocks and distracts from that core issue. Guys need to eat, and pay for crap they need.

It doesn't matter whether you start out as beginners or as established runners, at one point, they were beginning runners...
And considering most people start with a rep of 0, I'd say they are beginners (or screw-ups)...
Anyway, 'nuff said on the subject...
I'm right, everyone else is wrong...

By basic runs I'm referring to the

that Sir_Psycho threw up.

"Your fixer calls. He wants a package taken across town."
"What's the pay? He says 800; simple milk run. Not even any borders to cross."
"He wants this gear shifting now? Delivered by when?! And I bet it's hot... 1200 or I'll just go rob a convenience store."
"Roll your negotiation... okay he bumps it to a round thousand, and you think that's probably his budget."
"Kay, I'll take it. I'll see him at the club in 10."
"You meet him, get the package."
"I turn off the gridlink, swap the plates on the bike, scoot across town avoiding trouble."
"Roll shadow to notice the cop car and drive bike to slow down in time"
"Made 'em; 3 and 3."
"Area Knowledge: Seattle (2) to find the the drop-off point."
"Easy."
...

Bang: 5 minutes play, 2 hours of game time and 1000:nuyen: in your credstick because you shifted 20ki's of contraband without getting nabbed by the Star. As I see it, *most* of what Shadowrunners do is this sort of thing and it's not worth playing through. It's not every day, but it could certainly be considered to pay at least some of the bills.

Assassination: 5k. By canon.

As to: "Why bother with lifestyle and availability?" Because they mount up. Like run costs do. If it's not worth risking your drones or your van, how much fun is the Rigger going to have?

400BP characters are stuffed full of cyberware and magic and are professionals by any standards. IMO they should all have backstories and a reputation in *certain* discreet circles before they begin play. You want to work up through the leagues, you need to start at 300-350 points.

I think the problem is a metagaming one. GMs don't want to hand out alot of rewards.
And players don't want to spend money on "useless" stuff like Fake SINs or additional security measures if they know any guy the GM wants to will find them anyway.

So they settle for the rediculous pay suggested by Missions or other official material and have fun, because it is too much of an annoyance to argue about it out of game instead of playing. There is nothing you can do if the GM disagrees with you on this matter.
Except rolling a punk and have fun not giving a crap about paranoia.

This is even worse on conventions. Damn, I still cringe at the run involving the theft of an helicopter, a double digit force spirit, SK hitsquads and a briefcase nuke run by a guy employed by Fanpro. We got 5k each. But arguing about it would be no point as we wanted to play the game.

So, dear GMs, if you want to play up the paranoia involved in Shadowrun, please pay your groups properly, so they can reasonably afford to run without being fucked up after the first successful hit.

Go out RIGHT NOW, and rent the movie Assassins with Sylvester Stallone and Antonio Banderas. Stallone is a professional assassin, so he makes the larger amount of money per hit, but he's been in the business like 15 to 20 years or more, and if he were in shadowrun he'd probably have a Street Cred rating of 20. He's -the best- in the world. Your shadowrunners should probably make in six months what this guy can make in a day, but it's an AMAZING example of a professional who does have a rep, whose rep gets him the jobs, how that rep can backfire on him, and also who knows what about his exploits.

If you really don't want to see it, (and you should, it was excellent), you can read the spoiler:

Banderas' character, a new up-and-coming assassin, knows all about Stallone - his professional persona, that is - and knows he's the best in the business. He idolizes Stallone's character, and actually aspires to become better than Stallone.

Also in the movie, a woman known only by her internet avatar picture (two glowing green cats eyes) and the word Meow, is an information broker. She's the best surveillance expert in the biz', and can be paralelled with an SR hacker. Everyone in the biz' knows of her, and knows she's the best, but nobody has her name or knows what she looks like.

Both the assassin and the info broker are anonymous and well known at the same time. That's your street rep.

------------------
Him: "Oh my god. You're HyperFizz? JESUS! Did Ares really hire you to blow up that Shiawase Biotech R&D lab?"

You: Chuckle and answer, "Yep, that was me. Except we think it was really Evo that hired us, and it wasn't an R&D lab - we were hired to shut down a black clinic and liberate the technomancers being experimented on. The explosion was an unfortunate... accident."

Him: "I can't believe how lucky I am to actually meet you. HyperFizz, in the flesh."

You: "Actually, chummer, you've no manner of luck at all." *you shoot him point blank in stomach*

I think one of the things wrong with many groups is that they're fixated on nuyen and karma as rewards. Yes, you need those things, otherwise you fall behind on your rent and never get to advance your character. However... once your lifestyle costs are met, I feel like the GM should consider getting creative with adventure rewards.

My own rule of thumb is (average lifestyle cost for the group) * 2 for monthly income, plus circumstantial bonuses. Bonuses I've give out have included: nuyen, services, equipment, contacts, and incidentals. Of course, to get the bonuses they have to do really well on the run...

• Nuyen: Obvious. If the runners do (or don't do) X, Y, and/or Z, then they get a bonus. Usually 10% to 20% for base pay.
• Services: This has included things like a free tune up, discounted street doc services, invitation to get some work done at a top notch cyber-clinic, and so on.
• Equipment: Again, pretty obvious. New fake SINs, guns, armor, drones, spell formulas, drugs, etc. In the case of some hard to find items, they might not get it free, but they might get it at a deep discount.
• Contacts: You get a personal introduction to a 3rd party or gain the employer as a contact. Start at Loyalty 1 / Connection (?). Very handy bonus if your team is grossly lacking in some area, like Hacking, for instance.
• Incidentals: NERPS, but something the characters (or their contacts) would like. Tickets to the urban brawl playoffs, concert tickets, etc.

That's just my 2 nuyen, of course.

-paws

A couple of points:
1) The 100K figure assumes a group of 5 runners doing 1 run per month and living a high lifestyle. After expenses thats exactly enough to cover the lifestyle. If they want to live lower they can save some money but not alot (medium is saving 5K per month).

2) Johnsons do not higher professional shadow runners to courier packages worth 20 K across town, or convince mom and pop to sell there store, or take out random ganger X. These are jobs that gangers, hangers on, and wannabes get. The runners might get a job to courier some stolen bioweapon across town for the mob, with everyone looking to recover it, or to convince 10 mom and pops to sell, or to assassinate a gangs leadership.

3) I don't just make everyone I want able to find the runners or track them. If the runners take proper precautions then it requires them pissing off the Corporate Court or the like before they are really in danger of being tracked or found.

4) I don't expect Johnson's to pay in services, equipment, contacts, or incidentals. The first 2 and the 4th make it far to easy to track the runners while the 3rd is something the Johnson doesn't want. He wants denihability, which is hard when he is introducing them to someone. Note: This only applies to corp Johnsons. Not runs that the runners do as favors or the like.

5) I expect the runners to do their own runs when they aren't being highered by someone else. This is anything from favors for friends, to stealing artwork, to staging events so that they can come in and save the day and gain a contact.

6) The higher payouts are for progressively fewer runs. At 500K you may only get a run every 4-5 months. At a million you might again only get a run every 4-5 months but be living a luxury lifestyle.

It is assumed that runners will spend most of their money upgrading gear and ware, training, replenishing supplies, and saving for the big toys. It is a truism that in the life of every gunbunny there comes a time when he must pay for a rating 6 fake military/law enforcement ID to get into a hardcore Blackwater training course. And, of course, upgrade his reflexes. And buy cool new guns. And lasers. And magic bullets with anchored spells on them - those are very expensive but they're damn sure worth it when the fit hits the shan.


They do, actually. Its actually worse than that. Johnsons actually hire Shadowrunners to help (very important) old ladies cross the (gang infested) street. The Genesis game has these fun little courier runs which involve taking a package next door. That isn't to say these are top of the line runners or that they get paid well, they aren't and they don't. Such runs are basically limited to runners who are just breaking into the industry and lack both skills and contacts.


There is proper precautions and then there are proper precautions. There is pissed off and then there is pissed off. There are always ways to identify someone and always ways to find someone. It is impossible to completely cover one's tracks. The advantage of Shadowrunners is that it is rarely worth the effort to bother. But, a little bit of magic is really all it takes. A single security camera picture and a magican who can conjure is all that is necessary to find someone anywhere on Earth except behind some absurdly high-force wards. And even absurdly high-force wards aren't a perfect defense.
The best defense that runners have is that they are just tools that no one cares about.


That depends on the level of anonymity involved. Equipment from a different company with the serial numbers removed it perfectly reasonable. Services may be, depending on how it is set up. A discount coupon for the local Bunraku parlor wouldn't be that traceable as such things can easily change hands. Just because the Johnson is supplying a service doesn't mean that he's actually supplying it or that he is connected to the suppliers. With contacts, it depends on the level of anonymity. If I introduce a guy who I don't know to another guy I don't know and neither of them know me, well there is little chance of it being traced back to me because none of us have any idea who the others are. Introducing anonymous contacts to anonymous contacts does work well, particularly when neither know that you are the one doing the introducing.



Obviously, though this is substantially more dangerous because this time it's personal. They still need downtime to rest and train, however.


The big issue that is equipment upgrades and upkeep. At a million nuyen a run a gunbunny can quickly max out his 'ware. But getting all delta synaptic booster 3 is still extremely expensive, more than one run will pay for.

Sure, I expect them to spend a lot of money and effort doing both. If they pull 2 of these 100K runs per month then they get 10K a month for upgrades. Or perhaps they do 3-4 runs on their own each month to raise advancement money. These are anything from the players hearing that the military is moving a truck full of weapons too raiding the LS drug storage. Or even other, lower level runs. Like providing security for the arms dealer at a meet where he expects no trouble. Or the hacker going in and hacking his way into databases and seeing what he can find to sell.


See, the big thing is the lack of skills. I would consider said person a wannabe or ganger, not a shadowrunner.


Thats why all runs are done with nanopaste disguises, so that security camera pictures don't provide anything useful. And why the characters get a genetic reprint followed by genewipe treatment as soon as they have the 75K for it. Any previous ritual samples are worthless and no new ones will be left. And when you are doing runs that will piss off the CC you should be being paid enough to take all those, and more, precautions.


The best defense that runners have is that they are just tools that no one knows about.


Services and equipment aren't as much a problem for the Johnson as for the characters. The Johnson knows what equipment he gave you and what serial numbers it had. He knows the ID number on that coupon. If the Johnson gives me a gun I assume that he has a full work up on the gun. So if its used to hit a facility of his corporation then when they look at the bullets they will know that it was the gun given to our team that was used. Whether or not your team still had the gun doesn't really matter, it gives them a trail to start tracing.


Sure, the still need downtime. And they can take it when they want to. As for it being personal, often its not. It's just like a regular run except without the Johnson. They players hear about something valuable or whatever and then plan a run to acquire it.


Sure, at a million nuyen he can max his ware, but by the time he is making that on a run he already has it close to maxed. Delta synaptic 3 is about all he doesn't necessarily have.

If a runner is a tool that no-one knows about, then he is a useless tool.

Emperor Tippy: You seem to think that the Corporate Court, or indeed any individual Megacorporation actually gives a shit about exacting revenge on Shadowrunners. Shadowrunners are a tool that everyone 'in the know' in the corporate world is aware of, and make use of. Just because one specific group of 'runners ripped off that special prototype last month doesn't mean they cannot be utilized this month by their previous victims. Once the job is done, nobody cares about the Shadowrunners until the next time they are needed ... not the employer ... not the victimized corp ... and not the Corporate Court. Even in the case of really high profile jobs ... unless they screw up.

Sure there are cases where betrayals and the like occur, but they should not be the norm, or there would be no shadow business at all.

Again, your fixer(s) know that X exists. They have a way to contact you, which should be effectively untraceable. That isn't information that can be used to trace you.


Sure, they generally don't. As I said, you have to do something really bad to get the CC after you. Like Winternight level bad. Or use WMD's. Or be causing them enough public problems that it becomes cheaper to have you eliminated than just absorb the loss. If you hit the same corp repeatedly then it becomes cheaper for them to take you out than it does to keep fixing the damage. Sure, someone else might be highered for the run. But when Ares goes and takes them out the price to higher said runners goes up.

If runners are causing you a hundred million worth of damages a year then its in your best interest to spend 10 million to deter them. Deterrence can be done by publicly taking out the people executing said runs against you.

So if you run against a corp and they can trace you with 5 minutes worth of work then its in their best interests to take you out either with their own forces or by highering other runners, and making sure that the Shadows know it was you who did it. If it will take you 6 months and cost 50 million to track the runners down, its not worth the trouble.

Why is it in their best interest?

The deed is done. They aren't getting their lost doodad back. Typically the 'runner doesn't know who actually hired () him in the first place. There is no gain by exacting revenge.

Again, Shadowrunners are a tool. Although they do illegal stuff, every single corporation knows about, tacitly approves, and actively utilizes Shadowrunners in the course of doing business.

They are a disposable asset. Disposable because they have very little invested in them by the corp, and have few to no links to the person and/or corporation that hired them. So if they screw up, then very little backlash actually hits the 'Johnson' and his clients and/or bosses.

And while they may be a disposable asset when and if the occasion arises, they are also a reusable one. One that everyone in the sandbox can play with, and use against everyone else. Again and again, because that is the whole point of a Shadowrunner's existence.

If every corporation sought revenge for even half of the Shadowruns performed, there would be no Shadowrunners. But that doesn't happen, because this month's 'victims' have nothing to gain by doing so, and ultimately lose out on using those very same Shadowrunners next month against another 'victim'. Think of it as a sick, high-stakes game of hide-and-seek. While you are actively 'hiding' (on the job), you are fair game, but after you make it to 'home' (complete the job ... including hand-off), then you have a free pass until the next 'game'.

You have a very different style of play, Emperor Tippy. YOUR Shadowrunners are much more professional than those detailed in the rulebooks; nanopaste disguises, fake SIN's, genewipes - these are all OPTIONS that characters can take to help with anonymity, and I find it interesting that in your SR4 game world they've become standard equipment, akin to carrying around Certified Credsticks or extra ammo.

Shadowrunners in your game world, though, are how -most- SR players view extremely successful runners, who have been in the 'biz for some time. In your world, Shadowrunners are rarer and in more demand.

A shadow run = An illegal service performed for someone in return for payment.

Some poor fool with no rep doing courier runs or drumming up business for a glass shop by throwing bricks through the windows of cars in the neighborhood - he's still a shadowrunner, by the standards of the rulebook and most players, even though he's nobody. Your games, where only the Best of the Best actually take the title "Shadowrunner", is absolutely and ONE HUNDRED percent valid. But it's not the norm.

Most corps don't really seek revenge. It's not profitable in most cases. What is profitable is taking 5 minutes to run what information you have through the matrix and if you track down said runners, go and publicly take them out. The objective isn't to retrieve your property, its deterrence. If the shadow community knows that no matter what the run is SK will pull out all the stops to track you down and kill you then most runners will refuse to run against SK, and the ones who will run against SK demand a higher price from the Johnson's which makes it less profitable for another corp to run against SK.

Most corporations will take 5 minutes to a week to search for the runners, it costs them maybe a hundred k and they can pass the cost on to the insurance company fairly easily. Most runners are smart enough to cover their tracks well enough that they can't be tracked down in 5 minutes to a week.


Why wouldn't they be standard equipment (at least everything except genewipes)?


Actually no. If you go by what the BBB says as examples for skill levels then almost any 400 BP character is a highly skilled, rare, individual.
Rating 3 Professional
Competent at general skilled tasks. “Average� skill level for starting characters and NPCs.
Athletics Example: College athlete (NCAA Division III)
Firearms Example: Regular beat cop or military grunt.
Technical Example: Trade journeyman, or entry-level professional straight out of college.
Social Example: Professional sales representative, social dilettante, face, Mr. Johnson.
Vehicle Example: Commercial driver: truck driver, taxi cabbie, airline pilot. Ordinary go-ganger.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Associate’s degree (2 year college degree)
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Lived in Seattle for i ve or more years.

Rating 4 Veteran
Very good at what you do; can handle difficult tasks with ease.
Athletics Example: Minor leaguer: NCAA Division I, AAA baseball or other farm team
Firearms Example: Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (Marines, Airborne)
Technical Example: Mid-career professional (4 or more years experience)
Social Example: Politician, diplomat, socialite, senior manager
Vehicle Example: NASCAR or Formula One driver, regular military combat pilot, go-gang boss.

Rating 5 Expert
Star status: your expertise gives you a reputation.
Athletics Example: Athletic star: most major pro sports athletes (NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA, etc)
Firearms Example: SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces)
Technical Example: Top scientist. Published in peer-review journals.
Social Example: Incumbent politician, Grand Tour regular, corporate vice president.
Vehicle Example: Ancients go-ganger. Military combat pilot with combat experience

Rating 6 Elite
The “best of the rest.� Maximum skill level for “rank-and-file� unnamed NPCs and starting characters.
Athletics Example: Athletic superstar: Peyton Manning, Roger Clemens, Shaquille O’Neal, David Beckham
Firearms Example: Individual superstars amongst elite forces. Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside, Hatchetman, Matador
Technical Example: Wiz-kid. Has more than one patent to their name. h e Wright Brothers.
Social Example: Presidents and other heads of state, CEOs
Vehicle Example: Blue Angel stunt pilot.

Rating 7 Legendary
The “best of the best� Someone whose expertise outranks all others in all of known history. Can only be achieved
with the Aptitude Quality (p. 77).
Athletics Example: Athletic legend: Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Pele, Wayne Gretzky, Joe Montana
Firearms Example: “Wild Bill� Hickock, James Bond, Thunder Tyee
Technical Example: Thomas Edison, Nicholai Tesla, FastJack
Social Example: Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Damien Knight
Vehicle Example: The Red Baron, Evil Knievel

Let's use a regular hacker/support build of mine as an example:
Logic: 5-6 (Genetic Optimization makes that 6 soft capped)
Electronics Skill Group: 4
Cracking Skill Group: 4
Biotech Skill Group: 4
Mechanics Skill Group: 4

That right there is a veteran mechanic, hacker, coder, doctor, and surgeon. If someone with that kind of skill set isn't rare and in demand then you are the one not following the rules as written. That street sam with a 6 in pistols and a specialization in semi-automatics is one of the 3 or so best semi-auto pistol shooters in the world, if not the best. So yes, 400 BP shadow runners should be rare and in demand.


Those other people claim to be Shadowrunners, most people even view them as such. But they are not the PC's. So sure, that pay scale may make since when you are highering 200 BP "shadowrunner's". And the lack of professionalism also can make sense. But it doesn't for the stated level of the PC's.

They have the skills and at least 1 character should have the brains to take proper precautions. Stupid criminals end up dead or in jail, you never hear about the smart ones.

Think about it right now, if you were planning to kill someone what would be the minimum precautions you would take? Wear gloves, dump the gun and ammo afterwards?

You expect people who are using military grade equipment and tactics to break into well defended and secured compounds to steal items, or to assassinate prominent individuals, etc to take fewer precautions?

Shrug. You pretty much ignored the bulk of my post, despite quoting it in its entirely.

You have your own quite set-in-stone but workable ideas about how the Shadowrun world operates, and if that goes over at your table, then more power to you, and I seriously hope you have fun. I just wish you would go a little farther in qualifying your statements about how the game world works 'in your games', as opposed to making blanket statements concerning the canon outlook. Especially when it is apparent that the bulk of public opinion clearly shows that the canon outlook differs a great deal from your own.

My own take is this rep is important it is how they can sell themselves to their prospective job market. There are two choices how they can do this: they can either be really silent of the jobs they do or go around and mention the jobs they have done. Shadowrunners cannot be found in the yellow pages, their résumés cannot be read on a web-site somewhere, so they have to rely on word-of-mouth.

So successful shadowrunners irrespective of the qualifications professional or academic, talk. They talk alot about their jobs specifically to their fixer pals. They wander by his place just to brag some more about some job they have done. This also means that successful shadowrunners lie, they lie about jobs they have done and the difficulties of the missions. It also means that there are a lot of people who pose as shadowrunners to get that magical job from Mr. J - after all, how do you verify that stories are moving about group X pulling off heist Y, phone up the insurance company and ask for a recommendation?

So as shadowrunners, your fixer tells you of a problem that landed in his lap and liked you. For a finders fee he will give you who to contact. You og off to the meet.Mr J is hot under the collar. Not only is this illegal, but there is no guarantee that the thugs who walk in are not going to practice daylight robbery. Mr. J tells the problem the face says if the amoutn is too low or not and a bit of haggling ensues just to make sure that everyone is playing the professional.

The job gets done and the costs are covered by the payment and a little bit of nuyen is still left over. This is the point where the shadowrun goes to their favourite watering hole, gets drunk and tells everyone who comes through the doors all the sordid, liquour besotted details. Word on the street rises that you are next to Rambo, respect increases and jobs come in. That's a win.

*Shrug*

People are free to play however they like. I started with 4e and went and read the 3e books afterward, I'm sure its shaped my perceptions of runners and running. When I first read the BBB it was with no preconceptions, so I look at the book saying that 400 BP is standard for PC's and that at least 150 points of that ends up spent on skills. Ok. Then I looked at what skill levels are supposed to represent in the game and saw that a 4 is very good and a 6 is one of the best in the world. So when I looked at what level of skill is reasonable to start off with I see that the average PC runner is veteran level in multiple skills and can be the best in all of recorded history with a skill if he wants. So then I thought about what those skill levels mean in terms of lifestyle and rarity.

What it comes down to is that the players are some of the most skilled people in the world and I can't see people of that skill level working for cheap.

So I feel fully justified in pointing out that cannon makes little sense in what it pays runners. If those numbers were the profit numbers per runner than they become reasonable (pay after expenses and maybe after lifestyle for a month). But as the base pay they make no sense at all as the cost to hirer a team that really is, skill wise, one of the 20 or so best shadow running teams in the world (few people at their skill level being runners).

That's probably true to a certain point.



Just because it is possible to make a character that is the best in the world at something doesn't automatically mean every single player character falls into that category.

If you are going to be measuring up and comparing various figures, also keep this scale in mind ...

In SR4 a normal, average, everyday pedestrian has the equivalent of 160 BP in Attributes (3 in each of the basic eight stats). PCs at chargen only get, at most, 40 BP more than that.

I guess we each read the same books, and each get totally different things out of them.



I made no comment whatsoever as to your take on 'pay scale'. My only points have been directed toward your stated opinions on reputation and retribution.

My opinion on the subject of 'pay scale', is that shadowruns come in all shapes and sizes, with a wide variety of pay-offs. It's a buyer's market, and big scores don't always come along every second week. As such, even the 'top dogs' have to sometimes stoop to doing a few milk runs to pay the bills until the next big job comes along.

I've been paying out about 10 to 20 k per runner. As is the teams still pretty green and pretty poor. by the time they pay lifestyle and extras(alimony, some new toys,booze) they are itching for next run. a good balance I think.

Once the team gets some more runs under their belt, I'll add a little more.

I also drop an easter egg every run for one of them. 1st run the occult investigator got a puppy. (Fey hound, something I hope to have stated out by sunday to post.) the next run the hacker picked up a data packet with the codes for a carib league bank account.(Big order sent to Mumblin' Mike for some Mondo sparkly drones.) This week Hoz, the former LS dwarf gets his present. Just something to keep them coming back to the table.

Personally I run it as runners are usually under paid till they get a rep( with fixer or what ever).

my reasoning is kinda based in economics. here in the sticks,we had a cable company that paid big bucks for call center help. unfortunately, the company got eaten by time-warner. at this point we have aprox 800 highly trained call center employees out of work. So company B comes in, hires about 50 of them and is paying them a little over minimum wage. Hell, some of them were making 20 $ an hour before. I see it as the same as shadow work. a lot of talent at the bottom with pretty good skills. but only so many positions open.

In a dog eat dog world, don't get caught wearing Milkbone™ underwear!

I think you're right. I also started out with e4 and this is my take.

Take a close look at what you can get for 400bp and look at how that stacks up to the skill descriptions and example NPCs. Without making a super specialist, just some straight forward optimizing(not minmaxing) and 400bp you get characters with world class abilities. Soft maxing 1 or 2 abilities, hitting the 5-5/6 skill cap, and 1 or 2 pieces of ware under the availability cap is RAW for char-gen and leaves plently of room extras. This seems like what the devs intended for an "average starting character". Let's look how a starting hermetic starts off. They can very easily start the game with 5(7) logic, 5s in two magic skills, and several logic skills of 4(8 - specality and neural amplifier). The way I see it this is a well rounded character 400bp character. This character has the skill and wear to work in delta clienic. The way I think about it the directer of a delta clinic has a skill of 7, but can't be bothered to do operations most of the time. The leaders of surgical teams have a skill of 6. "lowly" assistants on the actual surgical teams a skill of 5. Every one has augments in line with skill. IMO this looks like a well rounded 400bp character could be working in a delta clinic if you don't write a back story that forces them into the shadows.

And yes, this is all interpretation, so let's take some literal RAW examples you can build someone with Shaquille O’Neal levels of athleticism while still maintaining veteran professional levels (ie. "regular military combat pilot") in several secondary skills.

I understand people some people like street level games, but if you don't use house rules or gentleman's agreements starting RAW dicepools own the streets.

Now specifically on the subject of pay and rep. I just don't see how people think that 400bp characters are forced to do grunt work. First off their skills are much higher than that. Even if you think starting characters have no rep all, pull 1 or 2 jobs on spec for a syndicate contact and show them that you are head and shoulders better than anyone they have on retainer. That really ought to get you good jobs quick.

Concluding this post there are two reasons I really think that having 400bp characters start at the bottom of the ladder does make sense.
1) If you have a 5 in a skill you have set yourself apart from veterans. I don't see how you do that without getting noticed just doing your thing.
2) Also if you only spend 25bp (half the RAW cap) that mean the character has 125,000 of profit. Either they have been pulling 5k jobs once a month for years and squiring away what little they can save, or they have been making better money that that BEFORE char gen. Yes maybe the PC is an AWAL spec ops or a syndicate killer, that is a choice some people opt into.

Struggling a little with why this discussion is still going...

Yes, you can make an argument that the chargen rules produce people who are at or near the top of the game in a number of areas, and that these areas translate into highly marketable skills.

However, this is not Corporate Wageslave 4e, it is Shadowrun 4e, and as such your character has chosen not to join a AAA and earn a luxury lifestyle, they have chosen to live in the barrens and commit crimes for a living. The reasons for this could be manyfold, but the main driver is that they are SINless and therefore effectively non-persons. And non-persons don't get an awful lot of choice as to how they earn the money to live.

So the canon Shadowrun setting is built around the idea that the PCs do not have the option to sell their skillset for 100k a run until they have earnt enough reputation to become a respected person within the criminal world. This means they need to get contacts they trust, they need to build enough street-cred for people to come looking for them for specific high paying jobs, and they need to not fuck up.

To Fortune's point, the Shadowrun world is based around the simple economy that Corps need 'runners, and therefore are only going to take extreme actions to reduce the 'runner population if that 'runner has greviously fucked up. If they offed 'runners just for taking 'runs, there would be no more skilled deniable operators left to do their dirty work.

Granted, this setting may not make 100% sense if you apply logic to it, but that is why it is up to the GM how much they choose to deviate from this canon. If you feel 'runners are underpaid for their skillset, then go right ahead and pay them some more money. It is your game, and all that matters in your game is that everyone is enjoying themselves.

But regarding discussions of what is canon...that is clearly that most 'runners do not earn the sort of sums you are quoting.

Just thought I'd point out that - assuming you've spent 200BP or close to it on Attributes - after buying all those skill groups at 4 you've got a mere 40BP to buy gear (including your genetic optimisation, and the commlink, programmes and tool kits you actually need to fulfil your role), any other skills you think you need, contacts, and any qualities you happen to want.

Yes, your character is an experienced professional in a wide range of technical skills, but he has very limited to no combat ability, social ability, or athletic ability. He can't drive under pressure, spot anything that's not immediately obvious, hide worth a shit or any of a wide range of other things. Sure, you''ll tell me that those skills are covered by the rest of his team, but he's not a well rounded character. He's designed to slot into a team made of other similarly designed hyperspecialists in other areas, and outside of his element he won't last 5 rounds. Make a well rounded character who's not entirely gimped outside his area of expertise, and you'll find those BPs don't stretch far enough for 4's in all the skills you need.

Yes a 400BP character is better than your average bloke on the street, but they don't have to be so terribly uncommon as you seem to be suggesting. Making that assumption it's easy to see 'running is a buyers market; hence prices are driven down, and runners simply won't have the readies to replace all their gear, and work up a new ID every run. If your team won't do a run unless they get enough to take all those precautions, the job will go to another team who don't replace all their gear after every run as a matter of course - there's no need to anyway unless a profile begins to be built up by someone who can actually hurt you - and thus have lower overheads.

>But regarding discussions of what is canon...that is clearly that most 'runners do not earn the sort of sums you are quoting.
As far as I have read there is not one iota of e4 cannon about what to pay runners. All I have to go on is the fact that the 400bp characters are world class criminals and can start play with 6/6 contacts and one or two 100,000 nuyen in gear. I just don't see how you can ask these people to risk life and limb for chump change. I totally see how the system and setting allow for all kinds of other stories, but that really doesn't seem to be the e4 default.

And I really hear you about there not being a lot of options for the SINless. But 400bp PCs take the skills to be an amazing shadow cyber doc as an after thought. I know people harp on the Car thieving ring but really a vanilla infiltrator/hacker and steal most any car. A Rigger/Grease monkey can chop it down in no time flat. A face can move all your product. If you have a mage doing buffs and over watch you operation is that much more hardcore. Throw in a sam for when something occasionally goes wrong and you're golden. Solid, SINless income, all the freedom of running, and getting shot at as a matter of courses. You could also work the drug angle. The competition is a little more ruthless and blood thirsty in that arena, but a solid face backed by a solid team should be able to convence most anybody that it is worth do biz rather than try to take out a 4-5 400bp characters. The options are there, and if you want several runners to do a job together it just needs to be a large very well paying job to make any sense.

I tend to think that you start at 0 street cred for a reason. That means no one knows you. If no one knows you, then potential employers have no idea what you're capable of. No matter how competent you are, Mr. J, fixers, other runners are all going to going to treat you like a noob until you prove yourself otherwise. How are they supposed to know you aren't just a run-of-the-mill psychopath, or a ordinary ganger who's mouth is writing checks his ass can't cash? For those low level jobs all those secrecy precautions aren't going to be within your budget and thats ok because you aren't doing anything terribly noticeable to begin with. No one is going to trust an unproven team with any assignment of real importance.

I also started with SR4 and have read very little of the earlier editions outside of the Deus Incident. The idea that starting runners, 400bp or no, would be given any respect whatsoever from the community is downright silly.

One could say that the adventures published in the official "contacts and adventures" are canon...

EDIT: Also, 400BP characters can start with 1/1 contacts and 25K in gear, are we going to take this as proof that they don't deserve to be payed?

Ok so I just checked the pay scale from "Prodigal Son" and "Hubris and Humility". Both are actually in the range I was talking about. I was saying that each runner should pulling 10k plus a month. 3k a week and 80k for 4-6 runners are both in that range for what I was talking about for starting runners. Throw in a couple smart moves with scavenging and the bonuses listed your doing just fine. The PCs should quickly be in line for better work, but that is in the printed material too.


Yes actually if you start with only 1/1 contacts you will be making crap because you don't currently know anyone important. As for the actual value of the gear a character enters play with no it has no bearing on pay. What does have bearing is listed max. If the "default" character was starving up an comer they would have low limit on starting wealth. To me that fact that a legit starting character can having a almost a quarter million in ware means that they having no been working for peanuts. They had a serious income stream. IMO a back story with an income stream + world class talent + major contacts = good (10-15k per runner per head) pay out of the gate.

So there are canon examples of how much runners should be payed, which was my point...

And my point was that you used the fact that you can get 6/6 contact and a quarter million in gear as proof you should be payed more, which it isn't...
Also, I have made a rigger with a quarter million in gear, but he didn't buy most of it, he made most of it, so very little income, more like scavenging...
A B&E specialist I made also didn't buy most of her gear, he stole it, so again, very little income...
Just because you have to "buy" it during chargen, doesn't mean you actually bought it...

10-15K per runner out of boot seems decent, but it wouldn't involve expenses or anything, and would be the exception, not the rule, IMO...
Now, I'm not arguing your points, my first point was that there are examples, my second one was that your argumentation was flawed, not the point you made...

10-15k per runner out of boot is not unreasonable, but that would be for a tough run (if the PCs are lucky enough to be trusted with one), and would include incidental income from fenced data and gear, as well as Mr J's offer, and any bonus he sees fit to tack on for a job well done. It's a far cry from the 'minimum 20k offer before I get out of bed' position that has been suggested.

The payment scales suggested in the SR Missions typically start at around 5k per runner adjusted by accumulated karma in the early rep building phase of the Missions arc. "Prodigal Son" and "Hubris and Humility" are both toward the end of the Denver arc, by which point, assuming the player has run through the preceding adventures, it is not unreasonable to consider them to have built up quite a rep.

I do appreciate the distinctions. But feel line of thinking is valid. Let me make my point a little more precisely. I feel those rules in conjunction with abilities as a 400bp character establish a very high upper bound for what a runner could be making very quickly. The rules establish you can start out as an adept hacker with legendary skill who is a close personal friend of an Ares junior exec. That guy uses deniable assets as a matter of course, and if he needs high end data run who else will they turn to? Obviously with those same 400bp you can make a sam with 3s and 4s across the board, a high edge score, a ton of wear, and no contacts worth talking about, and you now RPing just an erily competent guy no ever thinks of body messes with... but isn't going to offer major jobs to. The fact that both characters are valid doesn't mean that junior VPs are calling up the seasoned dessert wars vet with 100k jobs jusst because they could have taken the skills and contacts to do so. But on the flip side if you have phenomenal skills and the ear of a gumi boss I don't think that you will be doing milk runs just because your karma total means your rep score is technically 0.

Reputation and Retribution

Most corps won't take action against Shadowrunners because it costs them more money to do so than they anticipate gaining from their own employment of 'Runners. There *is* a line that 'Runners can cross where they start to become associated with one corp or runs against a particular corp and the RoI on the efforts to rub them out starts to look attractive to a Corporate Security Executive. For organisations such as the Yaks and the Mafia "everything is personal". They rely on their "honour" and dominance to do their business and anything that makes them look even a little bit weaker or damages their rep with their "clients" *has* to be avenged. Different motivations. Higher level runs are more likely to step on a given corp exec's toes hard enough to warrant some sort of smackdown, even if it's not strictly good business.

In order to ensure they don't *accidentally* get associated with runs for or against a given corp, and to avoid "Imperial Entanglements", it's necessary to stay pretty clean. Nanopaste disguises and multiple IDs are, I reckon, mandatory when on Ops. And keeping the general public unaware of your activities is part of this low profile. Your true capabilities should only be known to a select few. That will mean you'll only get jobs from those discreet sources, and won't get much in the way of 'on spec' offers, but hopefully your fixer(s) is (are) well enough connected that you do get enough jobs.

There's always a reason people are 'Runners. There are many reasons. Not all 'Runners are fuckups. Most aren't even *close* to "professional" in their attitude though, especially the sort that get wasted in a club post-run and blab the gory details. There's two entire different styles of game there.

Starting people with a Rep of zero is only appropriate if they really are wet-behind-the-ears noobs, and for my money, being able to have salted away 250k and have better than average skills and stats and contacts with national reach (especially helpful fixers) definitely implies *some* sort of pre-existing rep.

Rating and Remuneration

There are a lot of Shadowrunners out there. Most of them are fodder: freelance legbreakers, independent muscle. Doing dirty jobs for low pay in a bad situation. Not so many of them are the "main characters" of a story though. Player Characters are better. They're the ones that do the un-mundane jobs. they *may* also do the little jobs, to keep their hand in or make ends meet, but those aren't the ones most people with limited game time want to play. The list that Sir_Psycho posted looks fine as an absolute baseline for simple, straightforward jobs involving criminality and Edit: serious realistic but low probability risk to life, limb and liberty. Almost any job should pay more than that because the probability of danger actually occurring is higher.

Redux

In the end, though, it's about the stories you want to tell in the group. The background is flexible enough for your runners to have any reason to run, from clawing their way out of the gutter and finding the next fix, through crusading to save the Ork Underground to earning enough money to retire to a yacht in the Caymans with a new face and genotype. You just have to juggle the assumptions to mould the flavour and make sure everyone's working from the same ones.

Shiloh, you really reminded me that most conflict is over definition and terms. I think that most of us have fairly specific ideas about what a run and a runner "really" are. IMO not all freelancer criminals are shadow runners. I wouldn't call braking a debter's knee caps a run. Especially if you get the job done

I think this is largely where the confusion came from.

As for canon examples of what is considered a 'shadowrun', you can always use the published Shadowrun Missions scenarios. At present, there are 24 different scenarios from the just-completed story arc, and I would say that collectively they give a pretty good indication of what is considered to be a normal shadowrun for 400 BP characters straight out of chargen.

They also provide some useful examples of pay scales, but I will also add that I believe they are a tad too low, but I also believe that was done intentionally. Again though, they provide at least some insight into the economy of the Sixth World.

Now, I'm not saying these are the only types of Shadowruns, but in my opinion they do provide some good guidelines, or at least a solid basis to work from.

The problem with 5k per runner is its really.. not enough money to even cover expenses.

Rigger loses a Nissan doberman and an R2 sin on a mission - not unreasonable - and he doesn't even have enough cash to eat, let alone pay for a medium lifestyle, so he needs to 'greyhawk' the place to have any hope of getting ahead.

And then we are back to the point where the character (not always the player) should ask: Why bother? Lets just steal that drone over there. Or lets impersonate that rich guy and take all his money. Of course, this is usually boring for the player, so he keeps doing shadowruns.

It can be a real pain in the ass though to deal with this issue.
So I prefer to pay more and show them how money can be spent in addition of 'new ware, new ware, new ware'.

And let me ask again: What is the problem with proper(higher) payment? Does it destroy your game balance? Does it make the game less fun? What exactly does your game gain by crappy payment?

Have you read the early SR4 Missions? How exactly would you lose a drone and a SIN on those?

Of course sometimes everything can go horribly badly wrong, and other times you can complete a run without a shot being fired.

If the run was significantly tougher than you were led to believe it's not unreasonable for the runners to complain to the Johnson, and demand a bonus. If it sounds like the kind of run where you'll be in danger of losing drones (infiltrating a megacorp facility say) then there's no reason not to negotiate for more before accepting the run.

The resale cost of stolen drones is not great, and if you steal a bunch of them the Shadoweconomy ceases to be able to soak up the glut in drone parts, making them effectively worthless. The same goes for cars. If the runners decide they want to just go in for a heist then fair enough, I can still construct a decent run around that.

The jobs should be worth what the J is willing to pay, and simple runs is a good way to build up the PCs experience and skill. If you have experienced players then by all means have them contacted for tougher missions. It should still remain a buyer's market though. Mr J has power. The runners rely on him, and need him more than he needs them. He should not be the poor mook following instructions and dropping cash in anonymous lockers while the runners cover him with a sniper rifle.

This is a thought-provoking thread. I just stumbled back across the thought: A 'Runner is defined by hir contacts.

Obviously this is a very broad statement and I should clarify what occurred to me.

If your 400 pt beginner character starts with lots of shadowy contacts: a couple of fixers, a doc, a hacker, a 'monger, an arms dealer and so on, and a background of having been in the shadows to have acquired their cyber and toys, then they've already got some sort of a base rep, or why would they be dealing with these people?

If your 400 pt beginner character has few or no shadowy contacts: an ares exec, a magic tutor and a cop, say, and their background is just having arrived in the shadows for whatever reason, with at least a quasi-legit source for all their gear and skills they *won't* have that base rep. The childhood friend Ares exec won't be shuffling shadowjobs their way until they realise that Our Hero is actually operating on the shadowy side of the fence now, and even then, such sensitive stuff will need some testing of the water before really significant business comes their way.

So, if you want your characters to be starting-out, talented amateurs (as far as operating in the Shadows is concerned), limit the style and character of their contacts: restrict their Fixer contacts to low Loyalty; limit the number of street level folk who will put themselves out for them. Then make the early runs about making your mark.

If you're of the mind that 400pts is a decent-level 'Runner, let 'em have their Spider-Fixer who knows everyone and will trust the team with the kind of jobs that pay 6 figures. And make sure they have the requisite other contacts and attitude to ops to match their rep.

Obviously there's the whole spectrum of origins and power/rep levels beteween and beyond these two vague points, but for illustration, they'll do.