Ok,
So I finally managed to get my group together to play SR4, a few members couldn't make it but I had an ok turn out.
I have several questions or comments regarding the scenario and or the system.

1. The writing seems inconsistant:
For example: both illegally border crossings (ala using the coyotes) state that the tunnels are wide enough for a small van. However, further into the writing mentions things like:
"The only light available is what the PCs bring with them." Did the writer forget they were in a vehicle? headlights?
"A pack of ghouls are ... and will turn to attack the larger prey (the PCs)" Again, not only a vehicle but a van, at least 2 tons of vehicle, enclosed with upwards of a ton of passengers if you add a troll. Even at 10 mph 5 ghoul bodies will hardly cause any issues. Nice bit of speed bumpage there.

2. Enemy consistancy:
a. The main 'combat' is between 2 groups. 7 of the 8 enemies all have 1 IP and the remaining has 2 IPs. Which seems all fine and good. Except even using the archetypes the enemies are vastly outclassed. Enforcer, Gunslinger each have 3 IPs for example. Not only are they outclassed, they are approaching a vehicle from foot. Meaning the PCs have killer cover and armor bonus. The NPCs which have little and have their asses hanging in the wind get caught flatfooted with their massive 1 IP when a firefight breaks out.

b. The optional combat with the biker gang.
First option is to have all 1 IP realtively low skill/ armor/ attribute/ weapon bikers attempt to engage an enclosed vehicle with overwhelming firepower/ skill/ attributes.
Second option is to add a few gangers
Third option is to change that into a force ZDF that will largely be unstoppable by most any starting team. (I understand the ZDF is for higher karma characters)

If the main scenario combat is nearly a joke to archetype characters (it would be a pittance to a higher karma character) why have an exceptionally inferior option combat that could be made highly superior. Doesn't seem like this was really developed.

3. Back to the game system:
This refers directly to 2a and b above. The IP issue, it seems way too powerful. In old SR it was at least possible for most folks to have more or fewer action. SR4 gives everyone a flat guarenteed number of actions. Regardless of would levels or chance or anythign else.

I know that any of the NPCs could have spent an edge point to get an additional action. However, the importance of IPs make it clear in that scenario that the edge must be used prior to the NPCs actually realizing they would need it. Now that is easily done, through a leap of metagaming. Since edge is a metagaming tool I suppose this should be just accepted as is. I personally do not like to have my NPCs work with Metagame knowledge. (at least I attempt to remove that from their actions)

4. Last question:
Player handouts, what is the purpose of having the contact handouts show all their attributes and skill ratings and all the lovely wonderful non PC information, only to restrict the physical stats.

I assume it is so the player can hand the contact information to a new GM and that GM knows that contacts stats.

For my personal use I believe I will remove all the stats and skill information. Giving the player a basic description and a connection rating. The loyalty still remains on the character sheet.

I'm confused, although it's been a while since I ran the adventure. Did the PCs not bring the van with them?


I was under the impression that the PCs wouldn't necessarily always have a van. Even so, I've seen someone total a car with his bare hands, so I imagine that ghouls could do a number on a van if they tried hard enough.


I wasn't involved in Missions when it was written, but I'd be willing to be a lot of somebody else's money that as the first in the SRM02 series, it was designed to be something of a cake walk.


There are a lot of ways around this, if you are so disadvantaged. The Edge thing that you mentioned is one of them. Finding cover is another. There are a lot more tactics scattered around the Dumpshock boards, too.


I disagree. If an NPC needs to reach that corner right now, or get off just one more shot, that's a perfectly good in-game reason to use Edge, in my opinion.


My guess? The PCs are going to talk to these people, not fight them.


Makes sense to me, although it might be doing them a disservice if they ever want to take their character to another Missions game or to a convention.

SRM 02-00 was designed to illustrate some of the basic functions of Shadowrun to new players. The job is simple, take a packet from one group to another. During that the team has to deal with Border Crossings (either on their own or through a coyote), opposing factions that want to get their hands on the goods, and deliver the packet with appropriate levels of respect so as to avoid being shot by the sottocapo.

I wouldn't classify the ghoul encounter as the main combat, so much as a side-line encounter or warm-up. The fight with the Triad and Yakuza certainly gets much more interesting. Remember if the PCs get into a fight here, it's in the middle of traffic in broad daylight. The syndicates have enough connections to get their boys out of jail, do the runners? Suddenly the idea of talking your way out of it becomes much more appealing, or if the rigger can jostle his way out of traffic, bypass the problem. Not every encounter is meant to be resolved through gunplay, we provide the support information in case it is.

[Edit: You will notice the threat level increases as the Missions go on. There is also generally a Pushing the Envelope section to make the combat harder. Such a section was included for the Triad/Yak scenario.]

As for the contacts, the information has never bothered me the way it is laid out, thus I've never asked directly. I'd say the information is laid out in a way to assist a GM who may not have previously read the Mission that a contact is coming from. Handing the tag over to the GM, and suddenly the GM has a full rundown of the contact and their specific knowledges and abilities. By all means, if you are running Missions for your home group and don't want them to have the info, remove it. If, on the other hand, you are running public games, or a game where the character may see public play, then leave the handouts alone so as to not hinder the next GM.

That was exactly my point, van, car, motorcycle doesn't really matter. They were with it as as per text the tunnel was wide enough for it. Hence the vehicle has lights.


I imagine it is possible in game, but not when the vehicle just drives over you or lets you run along behind. I don't feel the ghouls would really run after the vehicle that far, since they already have squatter food close at hand.




There are a lot of ways around this, if you are so disadvantaged. The Edge thing that you mentioned is one of them. Finding cover is another. There are a lot more tactics scattered around the Dumpshock boards, too.


I actually think we do not disagree, I would use it the same and do not see that as metagaming. What I do see as metagaming is when a character spends edge to get another action, but only after finding out their opponent had more actions. Which effectively I would have had to do for the NPCs. Otherwise I treated them as reactionary as per the PCs. Effectively it was 8 vs. 3 (one of the PCs was a block ahead on a bike scouting) the two groups would not want to start a gange war over some couriers, so they all ganged up on the PCs. 8v3 is good odds no reason to spend edge to increase their IPs until they needed it. Unfortunately, that first round decimated the NPCs.
Meh.



Never mentioned fighting the contacts. mentioned why is the information on the contact card.




Honestly, it has been a very very long time since I have read or run anyone elses work. So I likely am coming off more critical than I mean. Being very new to SR4 not in the mindset and way out of any official mindset for the world, alot of this is colored by the way I traditionally ran SR2 and 3.

Oh and I didn't mean the ghouls were the main encounter. I just thought the idea of a group of ghouls stopping a moving vehicle in such a situation as being goofy. The players when presented with it asked:
How wide is the tunnel? Can I get to 25 mph safely?
Both were a yes.
"Ok, we run through them and shoot anything that tries to hang on."

Simple enough solution that I didn't see any reason to attempt a car stop/ combat.

Is there any reason that the ghouls couldn't set up some kind of roadblock to stop, or at least slow the van? Seems to me that if the players can improvise and take a vehicle, then the ghouls could probably do the same (if the GM was so inclined) and be ready for vehicle traffic on a well-traveled smuggling route.

So ... how is that not a light source that the PCs brought with them?


I imagine the ghouls were not intended to be a dramatic combat scene so much as one adding flavor to the setting.


Ah, here is the area of disagreement. When I fight, I find out pretty quick whether my opponent is faster than I am. I play it the same way with Shadowrun NPCs: it's pretty clear that somebody's significantly faster than you are.


A guess? One might need it when interacting with them.


True, but your players saw the threat, assessed it, and dealt with it. I'd say it's a win.

Very true, they could. Oh and the players didn't improvise. Boxed Text informed them they had a vehicle and it could fit in the tunnels.



*blink blink*
... thats my point...
Read the passage...



...and that requires you to actually see them act first... right.
and in my scenario The opponents infact were more than half decimated in 1 round meaning the second round was for running. Notice: round, not IP

I fail to see how you fail to see my point. It truely boggles.

Slymoon,

Either you're being obtuse, or you're clearly not getting things. The whole scenario is an introductory cakewalk. In spite of that fact, I've seen the adventure cause a TPK. (A fact that stunned and amazed me.) Either way, I'm clarifying things in the simplest terms possible here:


Of course not. The point here is that there aren't lights mounted in the walls or ceiling of the tunnel. That's a pretty important point, because it means that if the PCs turn off their headlights/flashlights/gunlights/whatever because they want to be sneaky, then they aren't going to have a light source.

This is explicitly in Pushing the Envelope. Those sections are suggestions for how a GM can make a scenario more difficult. If the GM can't provide a motivation to get the characters to willingly exit a vehicle, then perhaps the scenario isn't the problem.

That's the point. It's an introductory scenario. The enemies are supposed to be vastly outclassed. This is also closely associated with your complaints about IPs. If the players are having a hard time with it, then they're really doing something wrong, or the GM is really doing something wrong.

Of course not. That's why it's an optional encounter. It exists for the sole purpose of filling time. In the several dozen times I've run this scenario, I've never had cause to use it.

As others have stated - most folks who play SRM games don't play so with the same GM repeatedly. Not every GM knows every scenario. The information that's presented is so that a GM can run a Legwork encounter using the contact.

A) There is no boxed text in the Denver campaign of SRM, particularly in this scenario. That's a layout trick that I didn't know when I created the scenario.
B) If you mean text to be read aloud, that's the "Tell it to them straight" section. That text does not tell the players that they have a vehicle, save obliquely in the "Two Far East" scene when their vehicle is approached.
C) In *Debugging* of "The Pick Up" Mr. Johnson will offer to loan them a vehicle for the duration of the 'run if they don't have enough vehicles to transport the entire group. That's GM information, which means it's subject to GM interpretation.

It seemed to me that your initial point was that the adventure text failed to take into account a vehicle's headlights. My point was that the vehicle's headlights qualify as light that the PCs brought, whereas you seem to be not including a vehicle's headlights as light that PCs brought. Am I missing something?



Well, since the NPCs would have a chance to see the PCs act before their first opportunity to spend Edge on an extra IP (which would be the start of the second IP in the first Combat Turn), I don't see a problem.

Does that help at all?

Fiesty much?

I had my comments about the adventure and clearly my thoughts on a starting adventure are not the same.
Personally this would have been written as if the entire group GM included had never even seen Shadowrun in any incarnation.

That being said It was not clear what was being presented. Had I decide to take the adventure and make it my own instead of presenting it as written then I would have clarified and made decisions as to how to make it clear.

From your statement I understand that it is your writing and so I can also understand you being a bit more protective.

I also understand that it was to be a cakewalk, however since I am using the official scenarios to present the system to my players and make a judgement call to go with SR4 or remain with SR3 then I feel I can freely comment on issues that I see to date. ie: the IP issue. Point, I have not played or run a single other scenario. So at this point in my and my groups experience there is a problem with IP system. Mayhap the next scenario or one after that will clarify and show that what first seems to be an issue is in fact. Not.



That is true and could have been written a little more concise. (again, I took this as it was and didn't put anything else into it.)



That actually does, as I was under the impression that edge to increase IPs should be spent prior to any actions in the round. ie: Roll initiative, declare edge spent for IP increase, then first character acts.
Chalk that up to inexperience with SR4.

No, he's sincerely trying to address your concerns. You seem to be coming off as a polemic; is this intentional?


Which was true, the thing about your point, or the thing where you believe the vehicle's headlights do not count as light the PCs brought?


No problem, I'm happy to help. If you open your hymnal to page 134, you'll find a list of ways that Edge can be used to affect Initiative.

*opens up his 25 cent word dictionary*

ah, no I am not attempting to be controversial, I am however as I said rasiing points that I had regarding the writing of the scenario. The scenario structure itself was fine.
Again to restate, I ran this and intended on going RAW, no finetuning on my part.

It is now good to know that the scenarios are in fact written for experienced GMs not just to be regurgitated.




As far as what is true: Yes it is true that the headlights are in fact provided by the PCs so so the description is in fact not incorrect. However, since reading the scenario I believed that it was indeed set-up for the PCs to have be within a vehicle then the headlights are a given. So to speak and so, I felt it odd to mention that there was no light save for what the PCs brought.


yes, that page is familiar to me, alas it doesn't mean everything is recalled verbatum.

There are plenty of opportunities for the PCs to have one or more vehicles through the tunnel, true, but it's not unfeasible that they wouldn't, and so that situation had to be covered.

If the PCs don't care to stop and help a squatter not get eaten, there is an alternative if you want to force the combat (or threat of a combat)...



Just an option.

I´ve GM'ed this mission for my new players this Friday, so i guess i could talk a little about the way things rolled in our game. BTW, i really guessed that the mission was a "cakewalk", and so did my players... they solved most of the problems on the mission without a single fight.



I´ve changed this encounter a little. First, the Coyote said then to roll the van in a very slow speed... the tunnel was irregular, some drainage pipes needed to be maneuvered around, and there was squatters all around (so, they don't want to drive over then if a kid or something cross the tunnel without a warning). One of the ghouls was a mage, and tried to use INFLUENCE to instigate some curiosity on a character about a dark alley... the character losed the opposed roll, but the party just throwed him back to the van and runned away.




My players had fun with this encounter.

First, because was clear to then that they're not 'targets'... but was just unfourtunate to be there during this "rite of passage". They used the van to maneuver and throw some bikers out of the road, while another character used a sniper to blow out some tires. As soon as the bikers noticed that they was outmatched, the cutted the chase.

I was happy the my players resolved the encounter this way, without any killing.


They did something like that on Yak/Trid encounter.

The Face of the group just bought some time running somekind of auction with the possible buyers while the party prepared thenselves inside the van... on the right time they threw a FlashPak outside the van while the driver scored an amazing 6 hits to drive the van out of the trafic. The Yaks tried to follow then, but they crashed they're car on the traffic.




Because of the way my players solved the encounters, extra IPs had almost no importance.