I can easily see where you are comeing from on that one. Only problem is what happens when you sustain a spell on a plane which is flying?
your actual location is changing very rapidly with regards to the biosphere....

You absolutely right. It is really lopsided to spend edge then your opponent can't. But there is no defense test versus background count for the spirits to spend edge. Hence Mana Static getting called the one-shot nut punch. With the Slaughter Spirit I basicly said "well a starting mage doesn't have the dice they need to one shot an F8 and if they try edge the spirit likely counters with edge".

That's not what I mean (which I suspect you know). I mean that, from what I saaw, you were comparing a non-edge enhanced Slaughter Spirit with Edge-enhanced Spirit Mana Static. Not quite fair, in my opinion.

No starting mage that I can envision can one shot a Force 8 Spirit with Mana Static [i]with any consistency[i]. You need a Dice Pool of 24 (and the same sized Dice Pool to resist Drain). You can throw Edge into the mix, but that is a depletable resource, and can't be relied on in every situation.

I'm not concerned with the spell's or caster's relative location to the earth, or any of that. Mana Static is trying to permanently (semi anyway) affect an actual physical location. Being able to move the spell around is like being able to change the subject of a Heal spell at will (for whatever reason). It makes no sense to me.

Also don't forget that casting multiple spells allows multiple counterspelling attempts, so those Slaughters could end up severely weakened.
The Mana Static has only 1 roll to spend Edge on, so could give more of a bang than attempting multiple damage spells.

I do not think you get to move the AoE of Duration:P spells. I think they tried to reference Duration:S spells, and forgot that Duration:P spells are sustained for some time. This one may be for the FAQ. (Disclaimer: This opinion is formed based on the german wording)

I also agree with this interpretation. The text for moving a sustained spell could be referring to if the spell is type: S and not if you are currently sustaining it. This would make it so P spells would be immobile once cast.

I think a little too much attention is being paid to multiple spells. As has been mentioned by several people, if a spellcaster has the Pool to reliably cast a Force 8 Mana Static at maximum effect and then shrug off the resulting Drain, then he has the Pool to cast a whopping, high-Force Slaughter Spirit (or even Mana Bolt if dealing with only one Spirit), which would only require one net hit to put the Spirit down.


That was my point all along. I hope it is clarified in a future Errata, or at least the FAQ.

A clarification here would be nice.

Actually I really didn't know which way you were taking it but if you want to compare the millage from a point of edge in both these spells, Mana static will come out on top again. 1 point of edge on Mana static give you the DP it takes to 1-shot the spirit with average rolls. Also no one on the opposite team can counter in kind. What's more if you are spending Edge you can get around the hit cap, meaning you can cast the spell at a moderate force with a moderate drain. SS, on the other hand, does not have the punch to 1-shot the spirit without overcasting or multi-casting, edge or no. If they the spirit has spell casting available the multi-casting is shut down with or without edge. If not you have to spend 2 points of edge against a vulnerable target to have a good chance of a one shot. For a single casting of an F10 SS to be expected to shot an F8 spirit you need the follow conditions: caster spends edge, and defender does not spend edge or does not have counter spelling. Then you get to eat, what, 6P drain?

Edge for both spells
multi-cast SS: shut down
overcast SS: shut down, 50-75% wounds, one-shots expected. (Depending on defender use of edge and counter spelling)
Mana Static: one-shots expected with crippling debuff on a low roll (Depending on nothing)

So the of the options that have a shot, one will vary wildly depending on the situation and has 6P drain, the other always has a chance for a 1-shot, and in some situations a bad merely ravages the target as opposed to slaying out right ... for a drain of 5S.

plus mana static does more than kill spirits.

A clarification here would be nice.

Actually I really didn't know which way you were taking it but if you want to compare the millage from a point of edge in both these spells, Mana static will come out on top again. 1 point of edge on Mana static give you the DP it takes to 1-shot the spirit with average rolls. Also no one on the opposite team can counter in kind. What's more if you are spending Edge you can get around the hit cap, meaning you can cast the spell at a moderate force with a moderate drain. SS, on the other hand, does not have the punch to 1-shot the spirit without overcasting or multi-casting, edge or no. If they the spirit has spell casting available the multi-casting is shut down with or without edge. If not you have to spend 2 points of edge against a vulnerable target to have a good chance of a one shot. For a single casting of an F10 SS to be expected to shot an F8 spirit you need the follow conditions: caster spends edge, and defender does not spend edge or does not have counter spelling. Then you get to eat, what, 6P drain?

Edge for both spells
multi-cast SS: shut down
overcast SS: shut down, 50-75% wounds, one-shots expected. (Depending on defender use of edge and counter spelling)
Mana Static: one-shots expected with crippling debuff on a low roll (Depending on nothing)

So the of the options that have a shot, one will vary wildly depending on the situation and has 6P drain, the other always has a chance for a 1-shot, and in some situations a bad merely ravages the target as opposed to slaying out right ... for a drain of 5S.

plus mana static does more than kill spirits.

edge only bypasses net hits with edge dice. and only when used before the dice are rolled. which means now you need a huge edge attribute as well as high magic. it's really not likely to let you lower the required force of the mana static spell by more than 1-2.

No, I don't want to compare Edge use on either. I don't think it should be a factor in the comparison, as it is not a reliable resource.

Without Edge, Mana Static is not nearly as useful, because of the extremely high 'hit' requirement. As I said above, a person capable of consistently casting a Force 8 Mana Static at maximum effect (and then shaking off the Drain) could also cast a killer Force 11 Slaughter Spirit for less Drain.


I have readily admitted that Mana Static has its uses. My only concern in this thread though, has been with its utility as a 'multiple Spirit killer'. In my opinion, it is not the ultimate spell for that particular purpose.

First you said it wasn't fair to spend only one way, so I gave a different example. Then you said you meant the other only one way so I gave a third example. Now you are saying that edge is just unfair. Personally, I think handing F8 spirits and overcast spells specifically designed to kill you is exactly when edge is worth considering. So yes if you say that we can't use edge, and the spirit doesn't have counter spelling, then will SS: occasionally whiff, usually put a really big hurt on the spirit, and almost never one shot it. Mana Static will basically never fail out right, Almost always debuff to the point that the rest of your team can do stuff, and never 1 shot it. Now for the Drain you are looking at 4 or 5 S or 6P IMO the fact that SS has fringe results and MS basically doesn't is an even trade. Of the mid land expected results I still feel mana static wins. Taking ItnW from 16 to 8 is huge. Hell even just cutting it to the point that HE grenades can hurt the thing is huge.

So to tight wrap it up MS is better at rocking low to mid force spirits. If we make the assumptions you want (which I see no reason to) MS has lighter drain and is marginally better in admittedly subjective ways. I think facing F8 spirits is exactly the time to use edge. If you let the caster use edge, MS is the clear winner. IMO anything that it is worth it to put a F8 spirit on it's worth it to get counterspelling as well. If the spirit has counterspelling MS is the clear winner.

---

As a question people are saying that edge has to be used in a specific way to by pass the force limit. My book just says "edge dice" are allowed to exceed force cap. Did I miss an errata or a precise definition of "edge dice"

Man, who cares. It is 100% the case that slaughter spirits is the most effective option for killing spirits on the same plane as you. Mana static is however capable of killing spirits on both planes, and can shut down mages, but has a higher drain code for the cost.

So slaughter spirits is the more specialist niche spell, and mana static is a flexible generalist option at the cost of less effectiveness in the 'killing spirits' role, but much more utility.

Trying to pursade anyone that SS w/AOE is less effective than MS at killing materialized spirits is insane, but I think many people would agree that the anti mage effects and general utility of MS make it worth strong consideration over SS. Given I can only take 8 spells at char gen, I'd stick with MS over SS every time.

edge dice are the dice from your edge. most people generally allow that to include exploding 6's regardless of whether they came from your edge originally or not.

see page 67 for this. in particular, the edge dice (they are called that explicitly) are listed as being separate from the rest of the dice pool.

also note that in the section the awakened world, the removal of the cap on hits equal to force is explicitly called out as being *only* the edge dice. if that meant the whole dice pool when you spend edge, that would be completely nonsensical.

Ok rather than call me insane would you like to point how i'm wrong? I spell out all my mechanics and assumptions explicitly. Just because something is specialized doesn't mean that it IS the best even if it SHOULD be the best.


About the edge, most uses of edge rather than one specific use of edge give you extra dice that can exceed the force cap?

Not really. I have been against the use of Edge at all all along. I only made a comment about it being unfair to use it for only one spell and not the other when making comparisons. If we are comparing spells, then the base spell should be what is compared, at least in my opinion.


Counterspelling won't make a different in the example I gave. A Force 8 Spirit with Counterspelling rolls 16 Dice to resist, which is rarely going to beat the Spellcaster's Pool of 24, and the Spellcaster needs only one net hit.


As I have said an a number of occasions, Mana Static definitely has its uses. I have only been addressing the title of 'best mother-fucking Horde-o'-Spirits killing spell', which in my opinion does not belong to Mana Static.

I have also addressed the idea of moving supposedly permanent spells. If that ability is removed (in my opinion the correct thing to do), then Mana Static becomes quite a bit less useful, as targets are free to move out of the Area of Effect if they are not immediately neutralized.

I didn't call you insane. I spelled out all my mechanics three times, but you aren't seeing what I'm saying.

Given the same Spellcasting and Drain Resistance Pools, Slaughter Spirit is more effective than Mana Static at slaughtering Spirits.

I'm not sure where the miss communication is coming from, but I never gave edge to one spell but not the other. When you said rather throw out edge all together, I disagreed with that assumption and went on to show why I think that MS is still better.


If we are using edge MS wins. If you are not using edge how you are getting 24. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


I always though that any spell you were sustaining counted as a sustained spell. I dropped this point when people started contesting it because the argument wouldn't get anywhere, I don't have a strong stance on, and I don't need it to make my case.

Yup, it's entirely valid to take both or either, they have different roles. I'd submit that MS is great not because it is the best spell at anything it can do, but its because it can do so much (take out spirits on your plane, the other plane and shut down mages). The taking out spirits on the other plane is unique capability, and its probably the leading spell at shutting down mages, and is merely good at taking out spirits on your plane.

>... is merely good at taking out spirits on your plane.
No one has even tried to contested my claim that MS is better for taking out F4 spirits. For the F8 example the counter points have been a miss understanding about my use of edge, and then ignoring my example with out it and my reasoning for including it.

Do you read any of my posts?

Dismissing Edge from the equation, for the reasons I listed earlier.

Since the Force of Spirit being bandied about earlier in the thread was 8 (reasonable for a higher-end Spirit), that is the Force I used in my example. Statistically you need a Spellcasting Pool of 24 to consistently get 8 'hits' on any given spell. I never stated where this mythical Dice Pool is coming from, merely that it is the minimum needed to get 8 'hits' with any regularity.

So for a Force 8 Mana Static, which is the minimum Force needed to one-shot a Force 8 Spirit, you would need the above-mentioned Dice Pool of 24. You would also need that same size Drain Resistance Pool to totally shrug off the 8 DV from the Mana Static spell.

Now, given those same Dice Pools when casting Slaughter Spirit, you can cast it at Force 11 and expect 8 hits on the Spellcasting test. A Force 8 Spirit with Magical Guard (or Counterspelling) has a Resistance Pool of 16, and can therefore expect to regularly generate 5 1/3 'hits' to resist. Since one net 'hit' on the Force 11 Slaughter Spirit will do 12 boxes of damage (which is exactly what a Force 8 Spirit has), the spellcaster can typically take the Spirit(s) down in one-shot with a couple of successes to spare. On top of that, Drain for the Force 11 Slaughter Spirit is a mere 6 DV, which would only require a Drain Resistance Pool of 18 to reliably shake off the Drain, as opposed to the 24 Dice Pool necessary to consistently achieve the same result with Mana Static.

Force 4 Spirits ...

For Mana Static to take out Force 4 Spirits in one shot, it needs to be cast at a Force of 4, with 4 'hits' on the spellcasting test. This requires a minimum Spellcasting Pool of 12 to achieve with any regularity. The resulting Drain Value is 6, which to eliminate entirely needs a Drain Resistance Pool of 18.

Slaughter Spirit, on the other hand, cast at a Force of 9 with the same Spellcasting Pool would also usually generate 4 'hits'. Force 4 Spirits have a Resistance Pool of 4, or 8 for those with Magical Guard, and will typically generate 1 1/3 'hits', or 2 2/3 'hits' respectively. Since only one net 'hit' is required to do 10 boxes of damage (which is the total number of boxes that a Force 4 Spirit possesses), the Slaughter Spirit will almost always be successful, statistically speaking, even against those Spirits with Magical Guard. Now we get to the Drain Value, which for the Force 9 Slaughter Spirit is 5, needing only a Drain Resistance Pool of 15 to consistently bring down to nothing, which is 3 Dice less than that needed for a Mana Static with the same 'Spirit Killing' effect.

I thought use of edge always invoked rule of 6 for ALL dice if used before the roll was made, and not just the edge dice?
Is it in the errata somewhere?

(ignore me, I saw this same question above)

Fortune, I'm fully aware it was Cthulhudreams who call me insane. You've always keep it to the facts even if I'm little surprised by the scale of our miss communication here.

As for your F4 example allow me to respond. Let's roll with your assumption that for splatting 4F spirits we should be talking about F4 MS and F11 SS. Those drain codes are 6S vs 5P. That isn't exactly a win for you. The reason is that you can't stop the discussion with expected values. 15 DP is not a magic safety net, you will take P when you try this not in infrequently. Also the spirits can get lucky on there resistance roll. Something that doesn't happen with MS.

Pros for MS: More reliable, less than half strength signature, doesn't require Magic 6 (meaning you can have cyber and/or avoid the hard cap)
"Pros" for SS: lower but more dangerous drain code.

Conclusion 3 nominal benefits vs. 1 questionable benifit.

---

About the 24 thanks for the clarification, you were confusing confusing my examples. Without edge a 400bp magician basically can't 1-shot an F8 without edge using either spell. With edge (which I still maintain is a reasonable consideration when facing an F8 spirit/s) MS wins for the reasons I gave. Then at your urging I spelled out the no edge options where I still feel MS wins. You have yet to address that post.

Note that for Force 4 Spirits I only needed to use a Force 9 Slaughter Spirit, not Force 11.


I'm not sure where you get this. With Mana Static you must get 4 hits for this to be effectively called a 'spirit killer'. If you don't get those hits, the Spirits do not die, and can subsequently move. Admittedly there is no resistance test, but you still could get a bad roll just as easily as you give the Spirit credit for rolling well, and not get the required amount of hits.


This is true, which is one reason I originally suggested multi-casting lower Force spells.


Note the Force of the spell is 9, which does not require a Magic of 6, merely 5.


The Physical Drain is another reason for casting multiple lower Force spells. Overall though, the DV is lower for Slaughter Spirit, and therefore easier to heal if Drain is taken.


Correction: 1 nominal benefit vs 1 very useful benefit (I don't think it's fair to call a lower DV a 'questionable' benefit)



You are partly right. Offhand, I don't see any way for a 400 BP Magician to reliably one-shot a Force 8 Spirit with Mana Static without Edge. Even with Edge you would be hard pressed to get the required Dice Pool of 24 for consistent success.

But you are wrong about Slaughter Spirit. Without Edge, a 400 BP Magician could indeed reliably one-shot a Force 8 Spirit with Slaughter Spirit. A Dice Pool of higher than 16 is all that is needed, which is quite attainable. Magic 5 + Spellcasting 6 + Combat Spell Specialization 2 + Lion Mentor Spirit 2 + Power Focus 2 = 17 Dice Pool. A Force 8 Spirit with Magical Guard has 16 Dice for resistance, so statistically would lose out to the spellcaster. I could even up the Magic to 6 and/or use a Force 3 Combat Spell Focus instead of the Power Focus to pump the Pool even higher, making it even more of a sure thing.

Mana Static is not more reliable. To kill the Force 4 Spirit you have to get all four hits. That's exactly like the target getting 3 spell defense hits every time against a Slaughter Spirit (since Slaughter Spirits only needs 1 net hit). But in reality, spirits frequently get less than 3 hits on their spell defense. Indeed, the average is less than 3 hits even for Force 4 spirits who have Magical Guard.

Mana Static doesn't allow a spell resistance roll, but you need to get more hits to make it work than your target is liable to get on a spell resistance test regardless. If you only roll 3 hits on your Slaughter Spirit spell, a Force 4 Spirit is still very likely to be dead. While if you get 3 hits on a Mana Static the spirit will just move into another area where it can be full size again.

-Frank

See, I think this is where we diverged in the first place. My intention in starting this thread was not to ask what the best tool was for killing hordes of spirits, but rather to address the fact that in addition to it's many uses as an excellent defensive and utility spell, Mana Static also served as an effective (not best, just very effective) horde spirit killer. That other spells may be better for this specific purpose does not change the fact that Mana Static has all that and more, and as a result of it's immense utility appears to be a somewhat overpowered spell. In particular I was addressing the (in my opinion) somewhat flawed implementation of the Permanancy rules, which allow Mana Static to be used as a burst effect spirit hose without shutting down the casters own magical capabilities, because they just have to stop sustaining the spell, and they get to use their full magic again (after their fellow runners have finished hosing the enemy mages).

I understand that. Conversation flowed on. Shrug.

I don't know what more I can say on the topic of Mana Static being overpowered. I think if it were made to be stationary while being sustained that would help alleviate some of the problem. I also think that if the Background Count rose over the course of sustaining the spell instead of appearing all at once it would be better.

If it took an entire combat round just to get a Background Count of 1, that spell would be ass and no one with any sense would ever cast it.

Mana Static is really good because it shuts down magic. If it took a long time for it to generate decent penalties, magic would not get shut down and the spell would be just this side of completely useless. Mana Static doesn't do some other thing in some other situation. It just shuts down magic. If you won't let it do that, you should just erase it from the book.

-Frank

I don't think anybody is upset with it nullifying magic as per the description. It's simply a little hard to swallow the spell blinking supposedly mighty multi-planar entities out of existance within the span of a combat turn - three seconds.

Dude, it's Shadowrun. Combats last 3 seconds. Anything you can't do in 3 seconds isn't worth doing. If you attack a spirit with a manabolt or a high powered rifle it takes 3 seconds. If you decide to levitate someone's motorcycle it takes 3 seconds. If you decide to shape the pavement into a severe tire damage nightmare that takes 3 seconds.

It's Shadowrun. You do things. In 3 seconds.

-Frank

For money.

I'm quite alright with making it semi-useless if cast 'in combat'. It is still a useful spell, especially if the caster has time to plan ahead.

The point where it becomes more effective to take detect life/shape metal/powerball though is fundamentally the same as removing it from the book.

So your point is that there really should be only the 12 most useful spells in the book?

Some spells are more effective than others. They doesn't mean they don't serve a purpose. Useful is subjective anyway. I mean, Mana Static is never one of my top 12 choices.

Why would you advocate nerfing something that is not even good enough for your own magicians to learn?

-Frank

Because game balance goes beyond the edge of my personal character sheet.

Yes it does. But do you see the inherent problem with claiming that a spell is overpowered if you personally eschew it, not for theme or taste but merely because you don't think that it is good enough?

-Frank

I gave a little to much ground, and pushed my argument a little to far. If we ban edge, and use your ruling on moving permanents, and are dealing with a mage a couple dice short of the complete max DP specialized in arguably the worst spell category, you got me on the F8. On the F4s I still don't think you get to claim a win drain code. I fully admit my internal logic on the reliablity was a little fuzzy. It was basiclly that both spells should get enough hits to win and that the spirits shouldn't make the resistance roll. I was thinking 1 chance for bad luck is better than 2 chances for bad luck. I'm not dating a statistician any more so I can't come back with the exact odds, but I wouldn't be surprised either way. Until I get those numbers, I'll listen to people who have played way more than me.

edit: deleted totally random quote

Regardless of whether it would be useful for offensive and mobile runners, I think that its utility to security mages guarding static positions would be obvious.

That logic doesn't even begin to make sense.

You don't call up a contact in 3 seconds.
You don't plant a cutting charge in 3 seconds.
You don't assemble a sniper rifle in 3 seconds.
You don't restart a faulty getaway vehicle in 3 seconds.
You don't patch up someone's wounds with first aid in 3 seconds.

All of those are dramatic actions that could take place during the middle of a run.
Your reasoning only works if an adventure starts with "OK, you started the run, everyone roll initiative. We stay in combat turns until the run is over. Now here comes the first wave of guards..."

There will be downtime. There will be breaks between fights or other action scenes for people to heal or re-equip, or do all the other interesting stuff that basically forms the actual substance of a shadow run. There will be, essentially, times when people are not shooting at you. Something doesn't have to be usable in the space of one turn for it to have an effect on combat, or on your tactical situation in general.
Mana-Static, as a spell that allows you to prepare a defence in one area, could be extremely effective. It still only takes seconds, up to about half a minute, to set up. That's not a huge amount of time. Sure, a lot of bullets could fly in those 30 seconds, but bullets aren't always flying.

In combat this logic keeps you alive. Outside of it, well you named it.

I never said it was not 'good enough'. I specifically stated that 'usefulness is subjective', and that Mana Static didn't make my top 12 list. I don't even really think it is all that overpowered except for the BC happening all at once, which we have discussed already.

That's fair enough, and I would agree entirely with that argument. What I disagree with is the idea that combat is the only thing that matters on a run, or that anything that happens outside of combat cannot be dramatic.

If your only tactical options in a fight are ones that take three seconds or less, that means you didn't prepare for the fight properly, either because you didn't get a chance, or because you didn't take the chance when it was available. The latter situation is, I would argue, what spells like Mana-Static should be for.

Mana Static almost never works for that though. Spirits can move in 3 dimensions and can physically see the extent of Mana Static. It's almost impossible to get a Mana Static trap to do much of anything in Shadowrun. If the enemy doesn't want to go into your Mana Static, they won't.

If you can't drop it in a hurry, the spell becomes almost completely worthless. It goes into Shattershield territory - still has uses, but so very obscure that almost no one is ever going to learn the spell. You may as well drop it from the book entirely, since you will probably not see it in play.

If you want to deny areas, then Mana Barriers drop instantaneously and cost less drain. If you want to kill spirits, then Stunblasts drop instantaneously and cost less drain. Frankly, if you want to stop people from casting spells you can usually do much the same by just dropping flak into the air - blocked LOS means no spellcasting.

Mana Static has ridiculous drain and is a useful spell because it's versatile. If you make it show up in non-combat time, it's not versatile anymore. Now it just sucks.

-Frank

Job done.

It doesn't have to "trap" anything to be effective. If the enemy's only possible solution to your defence is "don't go there for a few hours", your defence has worked. If putting up a mana-static keeps spirits from raiding the area where the hacker is running the data-steal, job's a good 'un. Sure, stunball works, but stunball isn't an automatic first strike on anything entering the area, before they even materialise.

Stunball is for when they decide that they're high enough force to run the static anyway. Static + stunball = pop.

Mana Static can protect your allies when you are away. Anything that is strong enough to enter is then weak enough to be defeated.

For my practical gaming use, manabolt is the main spirit killer. Large numbers of weak spirits are usually handled by the mundanes before I even get to act. Force 4 spirits are not immune to grenades at all.

Didn't you read the bit where frank pointed out the flaws in that approach. Ie that I can use manabarrier instead and it has less drain and comes up faster. It's even more effective, as while it defends those inside, friends of the creator are completely unaffected by it, so you can still lay down a barrage on those outside.

F6 is huge break point for spirits. The extra optional power is nice, but 12 hardened armor is from ItNW mean immunity to schmucks with HE grenades.