Supposing a sufficiently good optical telescope, is it possible to take out a satellite (or damage a space station or moon base)?
The problem as I see it is two fold:
1. Where does the mana come from?
A. If it's from the caster's location, fine.
B. If it's from the destination, no go.
2. If 1.A., then does the mana immediately dissipate after leaving the mana sphere?
Full Version: Long Range Spell Casting
no mana in space, i.e. no magic.
mana is a medium for it to travel through, in space, the magic cannot travel, i.e. it cannot get where you want it to go.
mana is a medium for it to travel through, in space, the magic cannot travel, i.e. it cannot get where you want it to go.
However if you used magic to manipulate something it wouldnt matter if it went into space.
I.e. Kinetically launch something into orbit, of course
1) You wouldnt need to see what you were trying to hit
2) You'd need good physics skills to plot the correct trajectory.
I.e. Kinetically launch something into orbit, of course
1) You wouldnt need to see what you were trying to hit
2) You'd need good physics skills to plot the correct trajectory.
umm... yeah, but that's like:
"How do you cast a spell at someone behind a huge ward?"
"easy, you shoot him with a gun"
you could have a magically powered cannon I guess, but that's not quite what he's asking
"How do you cast a spell at someone behind a huge ward?"
"easy, you shoot him with a gun"
you could have a magically powered cannon I guess, but that's not quite what he's asking
Actually there is magic in space, it's just a bitch trying to access it.
It is not "no magic in space" it is "highest classification of mana warp."
The effectiveness of the spell is greatly reduced and the drain greatly increased and usually physical.
The effectiveness of the spell is greatly reduced and the drain greatly increased and usually physical.
Theoretically, yes. However, the TN to do so would be so astronomical, and the object resistance of the target so high, as to be effectively 'no.'
I'm at work, so I don't know what the OR of a highly complex thing like a sat is... but we'll say for the sake of argument, 8, yes? I think that's about what a car is?
8 (Target's OR)
+10 (Mana Warp level of space)
+10 (Maximum modifier for distance, see Magic in the Shadows)
28. 24 if you use an elemental manipulation.
Now, in order to even see said sat, you're gonna need one honkin' telescope to resolve any detail - but it can't be too big, or else you won't be able to track the sat as it passes.
I'm at work, so I don't know what the OR of a highly complex thing like a sat is... but we'll say for the sake of argument, 8, yes? I think that's about what a car is?
8 (Target's OR)
+10 (Mana Warp level of space)
+10 (Maximum modifier for distance, see Magic in the Shadows)
28. 24 if you use an elemental manipulation.
Now, in order to even see said sat, you're gonna need one honkin' telescope to resolve any detail - but it can't be too big, or else you won't be able to track the sat as it passes.
Well, I already ruled it was impossible. I just wanted to see if I was being a Jerk of a GM or not.
Of course you were, but if you let him try it and then told him that the drain for that spell is >8D(P), the TN is 28, and the effective force of the spell is not enough to damage it, the player might be more annoyed at the suddenly dead character.
Herald you put way too much time into your Sig. But it is funny. Now back on track.
Why would you want to cast a spell at a satalite? Just curious but other than just beign a pain in the ass to what ever corp threw it up there what purpose could it serve?
Why would you want to cast a spell at a satalite? Just curious but other than just beign a pain in the ass to what ever corp threw it up there what purpose could it serve?
Disrupt communications? Cause mayhem?
I'm just wondering what spell you could conceivably cast. Any fire or electrical-based elemental effect would be severely hampered leaving the Earth's atmosphere; there's nothing living up there, and a doubt any double-digit spell would be enough to push it out of orbit.
Trid Phantasm to set off its proximity defenses? Barrier to force a Crash Test (which would be pretty devestating at those speeds)? Animate to take control of its thrusters or whatever? Wreck to try and destroy it? etc.
actually, you need surprisingly little force to have big effects on things. especially since you can sustain the spell indefinitely, once you get it cast.
get a levitate spell and keep pushing it to slow it down. put up a barrier in front of it. hit it with a Laser spell. and never underestimate the power of Space Spirits!
get a levitate spell and keep pushing it to slow it down. put up a barrier in front of it. hit it with a Laser spell. and never underestimate the power of Space Spirits!
The orbit of most satellites is not actually in space, so it might be possible that they are within the area that mana is still present... So with that in mind, I would think that any spell that has the necessary matter/energy required to happen, could happen (ie: minimal H2O, so no elemental manip. that requires it).
I'm pretty sure that GEO and even LEO is well and above Earth's atmosphere. 
MITS, pg 86:
| QUOTE |
| The Earth's aura (known as the Gaiasphere to magical theorists) extends to the edge of the atmosphere (about 80 kilometers up). At 71 kilometers, the Background Count is 1, and it increases by 1 for evey additional kilometer of altitude, up to a maximum of 10 at 81 kilometers. |
| QUOTE (Yum Donuts) |
| no mana in space, i.e. no magic. mana is a medium for it to travel through, in space, the magic cannot travel, i.e. it cannot get where you want it to go. |
This is incorrect. There is mana in space.
The casting difficulties in space are discussed in Target: Wastelands. Most areas are a level 10 mana warp, but space stations can drop to 9 or 8, and the moon starts at 8. In Target:Wastelands, it was proposed that a corp might be researching the possibility that mages using uber optical telescopes could cast spells at terrestrial targets.
| QUOTE |
| and never underestimate the power of Space Spirits! |
That is possibly one of the coolest quotes ever, and by god, man!
I stand by you! SPACE SPIRITS!
(Of course, I'm on record as saying I'd kill all my friends for a space ship, and saying 'adding "space" to any phrase makes it cooler.)
Yes, I *do* want to be an astronaut when I grow up. do you have a problem with that?
yes, it was a GROSS overstatement as many have pointed out, but here's a question. do background counts work like astral barriers? in otherwords, if the moon gets nice and colonized, lowering it's background count, would you still have to deal with the +10THs to cast at earth because you're going through the void of space?
It was for a modified Wake of the Comet run. The object was to destroy the Ares probe, not just sabotage it. The Crew didn't want to have to go through the hassle of spoofing the security and going into space, so they thought they'd be clever.
You're right, I should have let him try it.
Player: "Why is Billy foaming at the mouth?"
GM: "Because his Soul was just sucked out into space."
You're right, I should have let him try it.
Player: "Why is Billy foaming at the mouth?"
GM: "Because his Soul was just sucked out into space."
Why wouldn't a Lightning Bolt work?
Although the TN would be high, because of the extreme range, once the bolt is created, it goes until it hits right?
Although the TN would be high, because of the extreme range, once the bolt is created, it goes until it hits right?
Hitting a satellite with a lightning bolt would be as difficult as trying to shoot one with a bullet (assuming the bullet can ignore gravity and air resistance). The TN would be so astronomically high, not only because of the distance involved but because of the speed at which those things are travelling (~7.8km/s), as to be basically impossible for even the most powerful spellcasters in existence.
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| Hitting a satellite with a lightning bolt would be as difficult as trying to shoot one with a bullet (assuming the bullet can ignore gravity and air resistance). The TN would be so astronomically high, not only because of the distance involved but because of the speed at which those things are travelling (~7.8km/s), as to be basically impossible for even the most powerful spellcasters in existence. |
On the other hand, if you got a good optical telescope, set it track a satellite with known orbital elements with the motors on its mount...the mage doesn't have to allow for any of that. He's got a visible blip in the view piece and the telescope does the job of tracking.
Except that once the mage has cast the bolt, it's going to continue on its way, not steer like a rocket in Half-Life. Your fancy tracking would allow you to watch the satellite...survive undamaged.
and the fact that physics wise it needs to be grounded to get the full effect of the electrical arc. there's a reason that lightning bolts hit the earth and not the outside of the atmosphere.
| QUOTE (Yum Donuts) |
| there's a reason that lightning bolts hit the earth and not the outside of the atmosphere. |
Good claim, but false. Most lightning is cloud to cloud, some is cloud to earth, and a small portion is cloud to space. Once I remember the name used for those, I'll go find a link.
cloud to cloud still works since you're distributing the charge to something else, i.e. from one cloud to another. but to transfer it into space is different. (as you said, there is probably some examples, but they're rare).
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) | ||
Good claim, but false. Most lightning is cloud to cloud, some is cloud to earth, and a small portion is cloud to space. Once I remember the name used for those, I'll go find a link. |
I've always heard it referred to as "rocket lightning" myself.
In any case, why bother with an elemental manipulation? Your drain is already going to be insane, so why bother with a spell that might not even do anything to the target? I rarely bother tossing a lightning bolt at standard drones.
| QUOTE (Hasaku) |
| Except that once the mage has cast the bolt, it's going to continue on its way, not steer like a rocket in Half-Life. Your fancy tracking would allow you to watch the satellite...survive undamaged. |
Sorry, spells - even manipulation spells - are speed of thought attacks (unless I overlooked a "spell velocity table.") The satellite won't get anywhere before the spell hits.
While I don't know one way or another about the "speed of thought" bit, I can tell you that unlike Combat spells, it's entirely possible to miss with a lightning bolt. Combat spells either go off and hit their target, or fail completely. However, with elemental minipulations, you can successfully cast the spell and still miss your target.
Now, even with a good optical telescope, you still have to aim a lightning bolt. While the telescope may negate some of the range penalties, it does nothing for the movement penalties, and the manawarp is going to affect things further. So, the sattelite could easily move before the lightning bolt gets there; if a person can dodge a lightning bolt, then a sattelite can be missed.
Now, even with a good optical telescope, you still have to aim a lightning bolt. While the telescope may negate some of the range penalties, it does nothing for the movement penalties, and the manawarp is going to affect things further. So, the sattelite could easily move before the lightning bolt gets there; if a person can dodge a lightning bolt, then a sattelite can be missed.
Why would the drain be any higher?
| QUOTE (Bearclaw) |
| Why would the drain be any higher? |
Space: a rating 10 mana warp
Effects: functional magic rating is reduced by 12
TN to cast goes up 10
Drain TN goes up 5
Drain level goes up 3
Thus a spell with a natural drain code of 1(L) when cast in such a way that a rating 10 mana warp is along the LOS between the caster and target, will have a resultant drain of 6(D)
hey herald, i just discovered something slightly creepy with the spoiler tag in your sig. i clicked on your tag at the bottom of the page but the spoiler section opened up on your post at the top of the page, not the one i clicked on. weird 
The error has to do with both copies of my sig having the same ID and the first spoiler with that ID is opened instead of the selected one.
Actually, lightning moves at almost exactly the speed of light - not quite, but very close to it. Given the distance from LEO to the ground, the sat would be able to move before the bolt hit it, but not very far, alas.
And if that fails, there's always Laser. Or better yet, Nova.
In combat, a person isn't dodging the lightning bolt itself any more than they're physically dodging the bullets that leave a gun - they're leaving the probable trajectory of whatever's GOING to be coming at them. No matter how fast your nervewires are, you're not dodging a bullet once it leaves a gun. Nor are you dodging something that moves at more than 9/10ths the speed of light.
And if that fails, there's always Laser. Or better yet, Nova.
In combat, a person isn't dodging the lightning bolt itself any more than they're physically dodging the bullets that leave a gun - they're leaving the probable trajectory of whatever's GOING to be coming at them. No matter how fast your nervewires are, you're not dodging a bullet once it leaves a gun. Nor are you dodging something that moves at more than 9/10ths the speed of light.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Now, even with a good optical telescope, you still have to aim a lightning bolt. While the telescope may negate some of the range penalties, it does nothing for the movement penalties |
IMO, it should do away with movement penalties completely. The satellite stays centered in the eyepiece (motionless as far as the mage is concerned) thanks to the ability of a decent telescope mount to track the predictable, steady course of objects in space.
You can do this today. Pop this satellite-tracking program into Windows and use your 7-inch Meade LX200. You've typically got a good 10-15 minutes as a LEO satellite goes from horizon to horizon, so it's not like the telescope needs to whip around quickly to track the bugger.
| QUOTE (Adareal) |
| Actually, lightning moves at almost exactly the speed of light |
Spells with lightning-type effects do not behave strictly like lightning. They'll also have some spell-like behavior. How much spell behavior and how much lightning behavior is open to debate.
Nova might indeed be better. If strictly limited to light speed, and figuring on 500 miles to the target, the target will move about 44ft / 13.5m between the time of spell release and the time of spell arrive. An increased-radius area effect spell could encompass that easily enough.
If not strictly limited to light speed...well, that's a fascinating thought unto itself.
what range penalties are you insane people talking about? there's no range penalties for spells, even elemental manips.
| QUOTE |
| We're talking about spells with lightning-like effects, not lightning. |
I think that's too fine a hair to split, really. That's like saying hellblast doesn't actually create fire, it creates a shockwave, heat, and combusting gasses that behave in a fire-like fashion. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, I think we can effectively call it a duck.
If a spell creates an arc of ionized SOMETHING that does heat, impact, and EMP discharge damage on something, it should behave in other regards like natural lightning, in the same way that a Laser spell should move at the speed of light, and an acid spray spell should flow into gutters and the like once it's gone off. Just because it's magic, I don't see any real reason to deny it the ability to behave like it's supposed to.
Though I still say you'd be better off hitting a sat with a ram spell. Then it doesn't get extra armor for 'not being in contact with the ground', as is suggested in MITS.
| QUOTE |
| what range penalties are you insane people talking about? there's no range penalties for spells, even elemental manips. |
Sure there are. They've been in The Grimoire (both editions) and MiTS. I'm at work, someone else look up the damn page number.
(Honestly, I think they're suggested rules, not 'you absolutely must use these' rules. Like initiation.)
i'd go for laser. even if you don't blow it up, you'll probably still burn out its sensors.
and, no, there are no range penalties. SR3 pg 183: "[elemental manips] have a base TN of 4, regardless of range, as long as the caster can see the target."
and, no, there are no range penalties. SR3 pg 183: "[elemental manips] have a base TN of 4, regardless of range, as long as the caster can see the target."
| QUOTE (Adarael @ Dec 20 2003, 12:41 AM) |
| I think that's too fine a hair to split, really. That's like saying hellblast doesn't actually create fire, it creates a shockwave, heat, and combusting gasses that behave in a fire-like fashion. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, I think we can effectively call it a duck. |
Bah, you replied to my old post. I edited it and speculated about your excellent Nova suggestion.
Spells do not behave strictly like the elemental effects, especially combat spells. Bolts of flame do not travel directly to their target or give all due regard to armor; they can be "bounced" off mirrors or through transparent barriers to manifest their effects directly on the target. The inability of lightning combat spells to be dissuaded (sp) from their targets by alluring lightning rods or power lines is another example of spells being spells first and realistic elemental effects second - the spell hits what you see, nevermind what physics says lightning should do.
The difference can be important, and this is one of those times, particularly when reality issues like speed of light delays intrude. For example, when targeting an object with a noticeable light speed lag, does the spell go to where the target was when you cast the spell (as a real lightning bolt or laser bolt would do), or is the effect like the mirror example, where the goes to what you see despite the pesky (but transparent) space-time barrier?
personally, i'd go with "if you can see it, you can hit it".
| QUOTE |
| Bah, you replied to my old post. I edited it and speculated about your excellent Nova suggestion. |
Whoops, sorry about that. <G> I'm bored and at work, you see.
| QUOTE |
| Spells do not behave strictly like the elemental effects, especially combat spells. Bolts of flame do not travel directly to their target or give all due regard to armor; they can be "bounced" off mirrors or through transparent barriers to manifest their effects directly on the target. |
I was under the impression Elemental Manipulations didn't manifest upon their target directly, but travelled from the caster to the target, and thus couldn't be bounced off of mirrors or fired through barriers unless they blew down the barrier? I could be wrong, but I thought that was part of the trade-off for using elemental spells?
| QUOTE |
| The inability of lightning combat spells to be dissuaded (sp) from their targets by alluring lightning rods or power lines is another example of spells being spells first and realistic elemental effects second - the spell hits what you see, nevermind what physics says lightning should do. |
I suppose that's a difference in play style - see previous statement about the spells being effectively 'real' once they leave the astral plane through your channelling and arc to the target. I've let people get away with grounding lightning bolts through wire meshes before they hit the target.
Can someone let me know if I'm right or wrong about elemental manipulations being unable to be 'bounced'?
In conclusion, damn you pesky space-time barrier. <G> I really doubt that FASA or Fanpro expected us to put this much thought into the physics of spells striking orbiting objects. But I think it's fun!
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| Whoops, sorry about that. <G> I'm bored and at work, you see. |
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, but I understand. I just did that for 8...hours...must...resist...urge...to twist in knife...too late. Gee, I'm already off work, over here on the East Coast, and I'm looking forward to two weeks of vacation. Yup, just need pack and hit the road. I waited out the rush hour nonsense so I should have a quick trip across the state, the beer shall flow and the gaming shall begin...
| QUOTE |
| I was under the impression Elemental Manipulations didn't manifest upon their target directly, but travelled from the caster to the target, |
Absolutely correct. I was referring to combat spells. Manipulation spells would pay more attention to barriers, lightning rods, etc., since they generate a much more "real" effect.
*snort* i'm seventeen hours into my weekend, here. talk about your space-time barriers.
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| Can someone let me know if I'm right or wrong about elemental manipulations being unable to be 'bounced'? |
SR3, page 182. You're absolutely right.
the question remaining, then, is how background count affects spells that originate outside their area of influence. if i'm outside a bg count / mana warp and i cast a spell at a target inside, do i face the TN penalties and higher drain? do i face the damage for astral activity inside a warp? what if me and my target have a bg count / mana warp in the are between us, though neither of us are actually inside it?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| the question remaining, then, is how background count affects spells that originate outside their area of influence. if i'm outside a bg count / mana warp and i cast a spell at a target inside, do i face the TN penalties and higher drain? do i face the damage for astral activity inside a warp? what if me and my target have a bg count / mana warp in the are between us, though neither of us are actually inside it? |
I'm fairly certain that if the target is in the elevated background count/mana warp, spell casting suffers the usual background count penalties. However, MitS is packed and after driving 'cross state, I'd prefer just to depend on my infallible memory.
I don't remember what happens when casting through a mana warp/high background count. I don't even recall if it's addressed.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.