fair enough its just a way to balance sams with magic 6+ mages and a way to use that karma with out getting cheaper stats. Other wise a sammy could be imbalanced. So are the final rules.

450BP (225BP limit for Attributes, regular skill caps, 56BP cap for Ressources, 3x Charisma free Contact Points)
30K
1BP = 7 000 nuyens
1x 12+ avail item per PC
Betagrade at chargen (doesn't count as a 12+ avail item)

or

450BP (225BP limit for Attributes, regular skill caps, 56BP cap for Ressources, 3x Charisma free Contact Points)
30K
1BP = 7 000 nuyens
1x 12+ avail item per PC
availability<12= 0karma
13-16= 1 karma
17-20= 2 karma
21-24= 3 karma
25-28=4 karma
etc
with
1 karma for each peace of betawear gear and 4 karma for deltawear.

I think this is the only point of dispute now.

I don't have my books in front of me, but I've always understood it as being: you pay for the grade you are initiating into. So, once again from memory, I believe the cost to get from 0 to grade 1 would be 13.

As for the team lifestyle thing; I'm all for it if you guys want. But, on an RP/background side of things, none of my PCs are currently ready to move in with total strangers

I'm for a full team low lifestyle or higher representing pooled assets of the agency (and membership fees) supplying some place to stay and basic commodity.

Also shall I set my defunct forum for this or shall we stay on Dumpshock as I can see this spawning lots of threads as the project gets going.

Tell me if I've got this straight.

Rotating GMs, A mercenary co-op, 3 PCs for each player,
One character strictly BBB
Also proposed: 4 PCs for each player.

Other characters:
Increase starting Build Points by 12.5% to 450.
Increase starting Nuyen by 40% to 7,000¥ per build point.
Increase availability by 50% to 18. The alternative proposals are 1 12+ item, and buy availability with Karma.

Indirectly increase attribute maximums by 25 to 225 (half of 450)
Maintain BBB skill point caps- Lowered caps rejected.


FrankTrollman's Contact Rule: Contacts cost Loyalty * Connection
Also Proposed, Free contacts points @ Z * Charisma (where 2 and 3 are proposed values for Z)

Add 30 Karma after character generation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Some other seconded proposals:
1 12+ availability item. The alternatives proposed are availability 18, and buy availability with karma.

Increase availability using Karma. : This proposal collides with the Karma after character generation proposal. After character generation you have little nuyen to buy EXPENSIVE high availability items - depending on which lifestyle you buy. The same problem exists for the "Pay Karma for betaware and deltaware availabilty" proposal.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Some proposals not seconded:
56 Build Point cap on Resources. 56 * 7k¥ = 392k¥ or a 56.8% increase

Betaware at character generation.

Team lifestyle. - I vote we let individual players decide for their PCs. If, for example, Mr. Juan and Dumori think their PCs can get along,... I realize that some (would you believe most) players might decide that their 4 PCs get along great, and other players might think that that is cheesy. Just recognize that a shared lifestyle could turn into a liability (depending on the amount of role-playing going on.)

Implied Proposal: Buy Submersion Network and Initiation Group members as Contacts. I'm for this with a mimumun loyalty = 3. I'll even go as far as to suggest that the PCs can take the other agency wizes (or technos) as free members assuming the players can agree on a group (strictures, etc.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Unasked questions: Are we going to allow pooled resources for high cost items? Between one player's PCs? More than one player? Transportation is one area that immediately comes to mind.

Who is making a specialist PC? Mechanics, Weapon Specialists, Instructors, Doctors, Fixers, etc. Might be nice to have a central list. Would help others save on contact points, too.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Rejected Proposals:

Lower skill point caps.
Buy Karma with BP DURING character generation.
350 and 500 BP characters
No karma awards after missions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

None of these proposals have been unanimously accepted or rejected. The only proposal that seems to have consensus agreement is that we resolve this quickly!

If Divine Virus is around, I vote that you move ALL issues to the Original Post so that everyone can see where we stand. Either that, or create some polls - don't know if that would work.

As much as we might all want this to be coop, I think we do need to have someone designated to make those rule calls. Else... this is going to bog way the hell down.

All right. I have MOSTLY gotten the first post updated. Lets start voting, and just resolve the issue once we have a majority.
To make things simple, lets just post our current votes after each post we make in this thread, sorta like a signature. That way, I just need to look at each person's most recent post.


------
DV's Votes

Basic Build Guide: Yea
Availability for Karma: Yea
Team Lifestyles: Yea
No Software Degradation: Yea

MJ's Votes

Basic Build Guide: Yea
Availability for Karma: No
Team Lifestyles: Yea
No Software Degradation: Yea

original post

got my pc back up and running so heres a quick list

what I'm for for not currently up for vote karma for advanced wear 1 karma for each peace of betawear gear and 4 karma for deltawear. Other proposals I'm against contact points in any form due to high BP and the karma we can spend. Can't think for any vote that are needed ASAP.

This is covered by http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry706051 in some extent.

------
Dumori's Votes

Basic Build Guide: Yea
Availability for Karma: Yea
Team Lifestyles: Yea
No Software Degradation: Yea
Karma For Advanced Wear: Yea
Franktrollman's Contact rules: Nay
Z Free Contact Points for X Times Charisma: Nay

I vote this way.

Quickly forum shall I set one or not up I can do it for no cost for me. It might not the best software or hosting but it shall do at least for quick polls.

DBA Votes:
Basic Build Guide - Yes *
Availability for Karma - Yes *
Team Lifestyles - Yes
No software degredation - Yes
The Agency - I vote for Blackhat's proposal
Books - I have all 5.

* I assume you get one +12 item free in the basic build guide proposal, and pay karma for additional items.

I also vote YES for an agency sponsored Wiz Group and Techno Network. This is implied in Blackhat's proposal.

I also vote YES for Agency employed specialists. I am willing to create and roleplay an agency employed specialist, either in addition to, or instead of, one of my runners.

I will happily RP an agency worker probably one who works in intell as my core BBB w/ maybe a small if any none core gear there's not much for a spy other than bits and bobs from aresnal that are all cover by the BBB rules wise.

Availability for Karma No.

Basic Build Guide: Yes
Availability for Karma: Don't care
Team Lifestyles: Yes, but I can see a lot of people deciding that their characters live together, and less crossover between others - especially if we focus on the mission, and not on the mundane details of their lives between missions.
No software Degradation: Yes
Free Contacts: Yes to any proposed, but otherwise don't care.
The Agency: Don't care. I like the idea of it being either Corporate, or Shadow (basically a fixer with an extensive network of skilled professional runners).
Books: All

As far as specialists go, I could resurrect Doctor Adone from an older game on here (one of DireRadiant's), and have him work as a medical specialist, and probably the guy who installs cyberware, bioware, nanotech, etc (and patches everyone up after a mission). He might work best as a specialist, who is there for background, but doesn't see a lot of in-the-field action.
Tomorrow evening, I should have some concepts up for my PCs.

My votes:

Basic Build Guide: Yes
Availability for Karma: Yes
Team Lifestyles: Yes
No Software Degradation: Yes
Agency: Whatever works.

Re: PCs, contacts, and shared lifestyles:

I am creating a covert ops specialist, a Wiz, a Techno, and a medical specialist.

1. My medical specialist PC is not a field operative. She runs the agencies shadow clinic, peforms and maintains "augmentations", has related contacts of her own, and is a fixer for "augmentation" wares. She will be Ms. Johnson if/when I take a turn at GM. What else she does depends on what points I have left to spend on her after I am satisfied with her primary abilities.
   She is my covert-ops specialist's buddy "for the forseeable future", and is available as a "augmentation" contact for any and all PCs.
   
2. My Wiz PC is looking for other Wizzes interested in forming a Magical Group. He thinks it would be great to share a facility (lifestyle, the higher the better) with compatible wizzes. BTW: My medical specialist is also a Wiz.
   
3. Ditto, my Techno hacker. He is looking for other Technos interested in forming a Networking Guild. One condition, it might need to be open to outsiders if there aren't enough technos within the agency. (In that case, I will buy at least one Techno contact to Network with).

--------------------------------------------
DBA Votes:
Basic Build Guide - Yes
Availability for Karma - Yes
Team Lifestyles - Yes
No software degredation - Yes
The Agency - I vote for Blackhat's proposal
Books - I have all 5.

I also vote YES for a Wiz Group and Techno Networking Guild (either agency sponsored or not). This is implied in Blackhat's proposal.

I also vote YES for Agency employed specialists. I am making a medical specialist/fixer, either in addition to, or instead of, one of my runners.

I have the first of my three characters almost finished.

1. Felix / Wraith is a B&E specialist with a some rounding for secondary fighting (unarmed and, weapons and firearms). (SR4 reboot of SR3 character)
2. I want to do a mage or adept but have about three different ideas rattling around in my head right now.
3. I will be creating an assassin as well. (SR4 reboot of my favorite SR2 character)

Hmm... I have thought a little bit on my characters, which I feel might be a bit more limited compared to the rest of the group (since the only other rulebook I have ATM is Street Magic).

1. For the first I know I am going to reboot my namesake character, the crazy blow-shit-up-with-magic-and-be-purple-and-skeleton-y-and-not-give-a-shit Trigger, an elf combat mage after my own heart.

2. Second comes an Oark combat/movement adept who may or may not be obsessed with ninjas, jumping ridiculously large gaps between buildings, and bouncing around like Tigger.

3. Third is going to a face of some sort, (magic or not I don't know) who may be ex-corporate and with some skillfull surprises up his sleeve.

4. My last is going to be a full mundane, infiltration type detective who smokes too much, curses randomly even more, and is maybe quite afraid/uneasy with magic.

Also, when the original post is up to date, I would be interested to see what our lowest common denominator is in terms of books. For example, if everyone has Arsenal (not sure if they do or not, probably not), we could allow all of the characters to use that, instead of having a bunch of BBB only characters when there isn't a GM who doesn't have Arsenal.

This might not happen, and that is fine, but if it does, I say we keep an eye on it.

In the post right above yours, #68, Trigger announced that he has BBB and SM. Unless everyone has SM, then the LCD = BBB.

--------------------------------------------
DBA Votes:
Basic Build Guide - Yes
Availability for Karma - Yes
Team Lifestyles - Yes
No software degredation - Yes
The Agency - I vote for Blackhat's proposal
Books - I have all 5.

I also vote YES for a Wiz Group and Techno Networking Guild (either agency sponsored or not). This is implied in Blackhat's proposal.

I also vote YES for Agency employed specialists. I am making a medical specialist/fixer, either in addition to, or instead of, one of my runners.

Fair enough. That still might be the case, but like I said, i doubt it.

Coming along nicely on three characters. Background will probably have to come once we've settled on an Agency (well, right now its just very abstract with respect to that part).

So....... is it 3 or 4 PCs?

I was going to ask the same thing. I have plans for three, can make a fourth if we want everyone to have four. The only problem with four (or allowing as many as a player wants) is that every GM should sort of eyeball all of the PCs (or, I guess, just the ones they would allow into a game). Again, since there is no single authority on the matter, it would be nice if everyone looked over each other's character sheets.


One idea that I heard proposed that I really like, is having 1 PC be less of a runner, and more of a specialist or administrative member of the Agency. That character could still be selected to go on missions if his skill-set is right for it, but I like the idea of every player have one character that is maybe a step higher up on the pecking order of the Agency, that they primarily use to feed new missions to the rest of the team.

Maybe I just like the idea of a mix of junior and senior members - and the fairest way to do this is to just say that everyone gets 1 senior member (who can present missions, on behalf of the Agency), and the other three PCs are junior members that typically do missions, rather than generate them.

This might also lead to the 9 (or so) senior members acting as a sort of council that can make the sort of decisions in character that the 9 GMs can't necessarily all agree on out of character.

I dunno, its an idea, and might introduce a level of politics that we were hoping to just gloss over. (ie. Starting a mission when it is handed out to the agents, and not worrying about where it came from or who wants it done).

I'm for the council and senior members idea I'm also going to be a bit lacks on stating out my runners as I've chosen to run first if no one minds. This as i have to work though a Run not knowing how any one plays as well as make my 4 runners so ill be slower on this than I'd like. Background and hashing out is almost done lightly so its just the math to do. the chargen rule while very good can take a bit of work but I like them.



--------------------------------------------
Dumori's Votes

Basic Build Guide: Yea
Availability for Karma: Yea
Team Lifestyles: Yea
No Software Degradation: Yea
Karma For Advanced Wear: Yea
Franktrollman's Contact rules: Nay
Z Free Contact Points for X Times Charisma: Nay
Books - I have all 5.

I also vote YES for a Wiz Group and Techno Networking Guild (either agency sponsored or not). This is implied in Blackhat's proposal.

I also vote YES for Agency employed specialists. I am making a Intel specialist or some one who fixes and mods gear like Q from tje James Bond movies., either in addition to, or instead of, one of my runners.

Please don't bash me with that funky trout; I gotta ask this:

If 3 * Charisma isn't enough, how much do extra Contact Points Cost? 1 BP each?


ALSO; isn't it about time for Divine Virus to update the results in the OP?


--------------------------------------------
DBA Votes:
Basic Build Guide - Yes
Availability for Karma - Yes
Team Lifestyles - Yes
No software degredation - Yes
The Agency - I vote for DireRadiant's proposal (was Blackhat, I think)
Books - I have all 5.

I also vote YES for a Wiz Group and Techno Networking Guild (either agency sponsored or not). This is implied in DireRadiant's proposal. (was Blackhat - I think)

I also vote YES for Agency employed specialists. I am making a medical specialist/fixer, either in addition to, or instead of, one of my runners.

It has been a while since DV last posted, but when he did, it was to say that he had updated the OP. I'm sure he'll get on it the next time he's here.

Right then making a post for the first Misson later today. When/ how long till every ones read to play it?

Got two more characters to finish (and to finalize the details on the two I have) but I think the bigger slow-down would be rules still up in the air (again, no one to bring the hammer down on these decisions means it will be there for a while) so some details can't be finalized, and that we're still not sure what the process for selecting characters will be.

Did we decide the GM would hand pick his team? or the idea where the GM hand picks a leader, and the leader picks his team?

Actually, I suppose, either way, that won't slow anything down.

In addition to the below, I think having a separate forum might be nice.

Dionysus' Votes:

Basic Build Guide: Yea
Availability for Karma: Nay
Team Lifestyles: Nay
No Software Degradation: Yea
Karma For Advanced Wear: Yea
Franktrollman's Contact rules: Nay
Z Free Contact Points for X Times Charisma: Nay
Books: BBB, SM, Aug, Arse, UW

Hum I'm for each player pick who they want to do the mission. Forum wise I can have one up in 15 mins but ill post on here until i get a more unanimous answer,

I don't really care if we swtich to another forum, or not. Its probably easier for me to use DumpSHock just because I check it all the time, but I could add another tab to my ever-open firefox browser.

I don't really see this game having more than two or three active threads at a time, but it might be useful for each GM to feel free to spawn new IC or OOC threads for each mission - which might clutter up dumpshock if those missions didn't take a real long time.

thats my point and with a forum of our own we could have a poll thread for each rule idea we come up with so we dont have to dig though 50+ post to find out what people like.

I will update the OP properly this evening. Here is just a quick update on a few points in the OP

That took longer then I though (had to do other things along the way, sorry.
Trigger, I think I may have missed your vote on the Karma for availability proposal. You are the deciding vote.

I can have stats for 1 character done tomorrow, probably, and at most a week before all three are finished

I am doing a melee possession mage. High charisma, very suitable for team leader and will have had experience in jungle/ wilds. Very suited to the mission, remarkably. He is mostly finished, I could get the last bit done tonight and have him ready for tomorrow.

Another character is a genetically engineered soldier of fortune. Note that he is note a sammie- he has virtually no 'ware- just genetweeks. Starts of weak will get great with more karma. All done except tweaking skills and some equiptment.

Last but not least is a "post-meta." A person with so much 'ware sticking out of every pore that he considers himself to have transcended humanity, and become post-human. 'Cause I love transhumanism themes. All I have for him so far are his attributes and a concept. It might be a while

Sorry about the delay. Cheers everyone!

I vote no for Karma for Availability, sorry that wasn't included in my other vote post.

Also, I vote for a Agency Wiz and Tech group.

Ok, so the Karma for Availability proposal has tied, and I have been working it so a measure needs majority to pass. Therefore the measure fails.

It looks like it is going to be a busy weekend for me, so I may have trouble with housekeeping. If anyone wants to help me (say... PM me an update of where everything stands) it would be greatly appreciated.

Also, we have nine people, and two people have asked about a waiting list. If we get 1 more person, do we want to divide so we have two games running, each with five players?

I'll put up a poll about that.

DV

I can't vote in the group poll, apparently because I voted in the previous poll. Therefore, I vote for two groups.

Well, I will have to look over my character again to see which high availability items to cut.

I am not interested in playing by post in another forum. It just won't be checked as often as Dumpshock, where I check for other reasons. If Dumori wants to do his runs off of this board, he's more then welcome to. I'm sure there's no shortage of players, so you certainly won't need me.

I also cannot vote on the second pool (for probably the same reason).

I think if we get even one more person, I would support the idea of splitting into two group (and we could consider consolidating if either group shrinks). My main reason is that looking over 30 characters is going to be a chore. Running a game for 10 characters is going to be a pain, and the whole round-robin thing with GMing means we'll probably never make it around even once - since most games don't make it past the meet, I would be (pleasantly) surprised if we were able to make it through 10 missions.

I am glad to see there is this much excitement about the idea, but I think it will be a lot more manageable in smaller groups. We might not need pools to solve every decision, for example.

It says I already voted, so I can't vote.

If I could, I'd vote for the 5 man teams thing.

Read my mind.

I was putting the finishing touches on my medical specialist, and thought about providing her with a medical facility and an ambulance. A basic facility and ambulance cost 265k, or 38 build points. That leaves only 85k for other gear if I put 50 build points into nuyen.

I am proposing a last minute house rule: the Debt Flaw.

A player taking the loan flaw can only apply those build points to resources, that is, nuyen. The player may exceed the 50 point cap on nuyen by the amount of the flaw, if the player chooses to do so.

If the PC has the SINner flaw, this debt can be a bank loan; otherwise it is a mob loan. In either case, the PC gets rid of the flaw by paying back either double the nuyen, double the karma, or some combination. Meanwhile, the PC is responsible for interest payments at either bank or mob rates. Defaulting on the loan could result in repossession of the collateral (which doesn't cancel the loan, BTW), and other remedies. Etc.

-----------------------

A few points about this flaw

1) It requires a lender NPC, either a bank or a mob. It could require a collection agency if the PC defaults on the loan. This puts responsibility on a GM to roleplay these NPCs as necessary.

2) The need to make the payments sets a floor on the run compensation for the PC. As the PC will be looking for high revenue runs, a GM needs to be prepared to provide these runs.

3) It is possible to corrupt this process. OTOH: The game can be corrupted without this flaw.

4) Something like a GMC Banshee would require a 300+ point flaw. I'm sure there is a Rigger out there somewhere that is drooling for this, or maybe something more modest like a Piper Brat. Maybe somebody wants to build the Six Million Nuyen Man. We might want to allow more than a 35 Point flaw, and we might not want to allow a really large flaw.

It might work best if loans are negotiated between the player and one GM once the group decides on the mechanics; also if the player is restricted to one "in debt" PC. That will simplify "bookkeeping". Also, GMs that don't want to deal with it, won't have to.

-----------------------

I'd offer to be such a GM, but that doesn't help my doctor PC. I need another GM to make that loan. (OTOH: Since my PC can buy an ambulance and medical facility for 40 BP, she can scrape buy without a loan if necessary). I'm still willing to GM someone else's loan if this house rule passes.

Meanwhile, does anyone else like this idea? Can we put it up for a vote?

Intriguing.

I would like to set some limits on this. If it were limited to 35 BP and counted against the 35 BP limit of flaws, then I can get behind it. Otherwise ... I'm gonna haf to send Vinny to break some kneecaps.

Dint we agre on rasing the 50 point cap a bit. looking back its still 50 but 62 was perposed so was 52

I've got 2 PCs done, starting up on the third one soon.

I also have a message from Divine Virus that he wanted me to pass along, so here it is and I quote : "I fearI am getting sick, and might be MIA for a day or two. Thanks!"

Hopefully our al will be up again soon!

The consensus was that we raise the BP to Nuyen conversion from 1:5k to 1:7k. That raises the Nuyen limit without raising the BP cap on resources.

Other caps that were not raised:

Skill rating caps,
Availability cap (1 exception allowed),
Complex Form BP cap,
Attribute BP cap (raising BP from 400 to 450 raised de facto Attribute cap from 200 to 225).

double post

Thoughts on Debt:

In Runner's Companion, there is a disadvantage for debt. There is also an advantage for wealth (no strings attached). These should probably be used, instead.

Also, if any of us are going to consider this book, put me down for it.

I have it as well. I glitched my Addiction: Core Books test.

Yeah, somebody told me about it last night.

It's not the same, and it doesn't help in the situation I described.

I decided to rename mine "LOAN" instead of "FLAW" to emphasize the differences.

Mine: A five point "LOAN" gives you five build points that must be applied to resources.
RC: A five point "IN DEBT FLAW" gives you 5,000 nuyen PLUS five build points that can be used any way you want.

Mine: you borrowed 25,000 nuyen and must pay back 50,000 nuyen.
RC: you are "IN DEBT" 5,000 nuyen and must pay back 7,500 nuyen. (even though you received 30,000 if you applied the 5 BP to resources).

Mine: you negotiate the interest rate with the GM - I was thinking current consumer rates like 1.5% per month if it is a bank loan, higher if it is a mob loan. GM discretion, but I was thinking it should be based on Lifestyle and SIN.
RC: interest rate is 10% per month.

Interestingly, 1.5% of 50,000 = 750 nuyen, while 10% of 7,500 is also 750 nuyen!!! Mine is tougher because you OWE 50,000 while in the RC version you only owe 7,500. Most runs pay more the 7,500 and less than 50,000 which means you can probably pay off a 5 point RC "debt" after 1 run, whereas mine might take you 5 or more runs. A 10 point flaw would be more difficult to get rid of, but the RC "debt" will always be only 15% of my "loan".

Besides, the whole point of mine is to let you exceed the 50 build point cap on resources and the 35 point cap on flaws, in order to start with a big ticket item (assuming the GM is okay with that). The RC version is just an ALTERNATIVE flaw that you take instead of other flaws, rather than an ADDITIONAL thing you take plus other flaws.

Again, mine is designed to: let the PC have more build points without giving him more build points. PLUS, it restricts the use of these build points to purchasing nuyen. Think about this campaign. Instead of making the conversion rate 7,000 nuyen per build point, we could have left it at 5,000 nuyen per build point and allowed PCs to start with a loan. It gives the character and the campaign a different flavor, as in: Why does ____ run the shadows? Because he is up to his ass in alligators!

I haven't actually seen the RC yet. How does the wealth advantage work? This is the first I've heard of it. Does it give you more nuyen at character generation; enough to buy a Piper Brat, which Arsenal says is affordable by the upper middle class? Cool!