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Seidaku
Well, as my current character is a shaman who is unwilling to devote essence/magic to cyber, I figured that using a shotgun would be a way of making up for the lack of a smartlink. Upon speaking with my GM, however, I was told that the choke rules are quite broken, and we would not be using them.

The reason, as I understand it, is that one can use choke to lower one's target numbers to the point where you succeed with almost all of your dice. Even though this lowers the force of the weapon accordingly, the enemy is almost always unable to surmount your successes, and thus the damage is staged to deadly almost every time.

Has anyone else encountered this problem in their games? Do you have any solutions for how to fix it, while retaining the shotgun's ability to have a better chance of hitting targets?
GunnerJ
Simple: do not lower the TN for the attacker's roll, rather, increase the TN for dodging by the same amount. (i.e., a canon -3 modifier becomes a +3 modifier to any defender's dodge test instead.)
BitBasher
Or for every 2 or 3 off the power it also takes off a wound level.
GunnerJ
Or both. wink.gif
Kagetenshi
The old forums have a thread on just this topic.

Basically, yes, they're broken. Don't tell your GM this until you use it for that one beautiful moment of glory before he or she houserules it into oblivion.

~J
Austere Emancipator
It continued in the new forums too.

And exactly what Kagetenshi said.
Seidaku
QUOTE (GunnerJ)
Simple: do not lower the TN for the attacker's roll, rather, increase the TN for dodging by the same amount. (i.e., a canon -3 modifier becomes a +3 modifier to any defender's dodge test instead.)

The problem with just adding dodge modifiers is that they require that the target is _hit_. Hitting the target is the problem using a shotgun is supposed to overcome.

How does the following solution(based partially on what has been said by others) sound?

The choke rules function as normal, but the damage of the weapon is lowered by one level every 3 points in which the force/tn is reduced. Thus, if firing a 12D shotgun with 10 choke at a target at extreme range, you'd have -10 to your tn, and the shot would effectively be 2L.
Kagetenshi
10 successes are still nasty to face on that, but it's more reasonable. Perhaps enforcing an increase in number of successes to stage?

~J
Ol' Scratch
We've always just translated the TN bonus into a Dodging TN penalty. Since it's an "area effect" shot, that's more than enough of a benefit to use a high Choke setting.
Cray74
QUOTE (Seidaku)
The reason, as I understand it, is that one can use choke to lower one's target numbers to the point where you succeed with almost all of your dice. Even though this lowers the force of the weapon accordingly, the enemy is almost always unable to surmount your successes, and thus the damage is staged to deadly almost every time.

Lemme ask you these questions three:

1) How tough are your regular foes relative to your PC(s)?
2) Do your PC(s) regularly face high firearms target numbers (5+)?
3) Do you regularly wrack up a high NPC body count in the games?

The direction I'm going, of course, is: do you have any trouble killing targets with non-shotgun weapons?

I mean, if your group is splattering NPCs left and right with the typical runner assortment of assault rifles, heavy pistols, assault cannons, grenades, and area effect spells...why worry about the accuracy of shotguns? They're no worse than the rest.

Of course, if killing one opponent is made into a non-trivial challenge by your GM then I can see the issue of shotguns and choke. I kinda like the dodge penalty fix - it's quick 'n easy to implement.
GunnerJ
QUOTE (Seidaku)
The problem with just adding dodge modifiers is that they require that the target is _hit_. Hitting the target is the problem using a shotgun is supposed to overcome.

The problem with lowering the TN, however, is that it effectively increases the amount of damage done, which a shotgun with a large scatter is not supposed to do.
Wish
We just play ranged combat using the melee combat rules. Stage damage before the damage resist test, so even an overwhelming number of successes only requires 2 successes on the damage resist test to survive.
Kagetenshi
And insane Power, as the melee rules use extra successes beyond D to increase it.

~J
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Okay, I do not think choke is a broken rule. First, ya gotta use the flechette rules. That means impact armour's a good thing.

Second, shotguns are supposed to be a big threat to unarmoured opponents. Or anyone not a combatant. If ya don't have a decent combat pool (At least 6 in my opinion) then you fail shadowrun 101 and character generation is the first class you retake!

Third, check out the concealability of most shotguns! Yeah, there's a pistol sized version of one, but it's damage is lowered. So, ya think Joe Shadowrunner is gonna walk around with a shotgun if he's not on a mission? Probably not.

I don't think shotguns are any more broken than any full auto weapon with recoil compensation. 12 rounds from an SMG is gonna ruin yer day! Throw on a gas vent 4, a customized grip and a strength of at least 5 and ya got 6 recoil back right there. 19D + 2 overflow (Or 21D if ya use that rule) is just as hard to handlt as 9D+ from a choked shotgun with lots of successes.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys)
I don't think shotguns are any more broken than any full auto weapon with recoil compensation. 12 rounds from an SMG is gonna ruin yer day! Throw on a gas vent 4, a customized grip and a strength of at least 5 and ya got 6 recoil back right there. 19D + 2 overflow (Or 21D if ya use that rule) is just as hard to handlt as 9D+ from a choked shotgun with lots of successes.

But that's like saying that a 9S SA/BF/FA AR with 8 RC but no concealability isn't broken because HMGs do more damage. And the example is a bit off, because the only SMG (that I know of) that can fire 12+ rounds is the SuperMach, which does only 6L and can't have a lot of recoil comp. And your example would still give the shooter +6 TN with the SMG, whereas the problem with shotguns is that they do insane amounts of damage because the TN is so low.

QUOTE
Second, shotguns are supposed to be a big threat to unarmoured opponents. Or anyone not a combatant.

But they aren't supposed to be a threat against anyone once the shot pattern has widened beyond a few meters. If you check the math in one of those earlier threads (can't remember which one), a shot pattern with a 5 meter radius at 91-100 meters (ie choke 10 shotgun at the furthest ranges) would be really fricken lucky to significantly hurt anyone, including a nude person who doesn't know s/he's being shot at. Slap on clothes and his hands in front of his face, and the shotgunner would be in serious trouble.

Many of the suggested fixes posted in this thread and either of the earlier ones work nicely. One more that I just thought of, influenced by some of the other suggestions:
Tie the Choke value to the Range categories, ie treat Short as the first Choke step, Medium as the second, Long the third, Extreme the fourth, and that's it. Drop Damage Level by 1 for each category. Double the Power modifier. Then you could also keep the TN modifier to-hit (3/3/3/5 at S/M/L/E instead of 4/5/6/9).

Defiance T-250 would do 10D(f) at 0-10 meters (base TN 3), 8S(f) at 11-20 meters (TN 3), 6M(f) at 21-50 meters (TN 3), 4L(f) at 51-100 meters (TN 5).

And if you want a smaller Choke setting, get yourself a shotgun with Heavy Pistol ranges.
bwdemon
How about just limiting the maximum choke level? Keep it to something like 3-5 so the TNs can't drop quite so far and the results are more realistic. Don't RL shotguns only have three choke settings available anyway?
Kagetenshi
On a side note, an anecdote of the first time I realized the potential for shotguns:

I was playing in a game GMed by Not of this World, and we were sneaking up on a female magical group spread out over a rock out in the wilderness. The LOS was unobstructed, but they hadn't seen us. I was considering using the choke to hit all of them, hoping that I could put at least a Moderate wound on most of them. Then I looked at the shotgun rules.
At the time the last session ended (we never finished that, sadly) we were 250 meters away. All I had to do was get to 90 meters and fire, and as long as I wasn't detected before that I was almost certain to kill EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THAT ROCK.
It was a wonderful feeling.

~J

Edit: I was loaded with stun shells, so I suppose I wouldn't've killed them, but it'd be good enough. 'Sides, some of them might've gotten staged up to D Physical anyway.
Austere Emancipator
I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have worked, since Stun shells shouldn't spread at all. The rules are rather unambiguous about that (it states that Shot rounds have the spread-effect, nothing about other ammunition). So they got one thing right, at least.
toturi
Rubber buckshot should have the same effect as stun rd with spread effect.
Austere Emancipator
HOLY SHIT! I never realized that's how SR describes the shotgun stun shells... Damn, I'd really want to see someone trying to stop a guy at 50 meters with a shotgun loaded with rubber buckshot! grinbig.gif
toturi
Normal shotgun rds can't damage anything more than 20m in the first place and you want to damage hit something at 50m?

Choke setting 2, base damage power 10, 2 x 10 = 20m
Austere Emancipator
Choke setting 10, base 10D(f) Stun, 5D(f) Stun at 50 meters, quite enough to take out any unarmored person. IRL, you wouldn't manage more than to perhaps make whoever you're shooting at more angry. Unless the target was heavily clothed (let alone armored), in which case s/he wouldn't even notice s/he's being shot at.

Especially if the rubber buckshot had spread to a 5-meter diameter at that point. biggrin.gif
Slamm-O
am i the only one who remembers the bbb having min and max choke settings? also i think the lowering of the damage level makes it all fair, with a min/max choke that is
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Slamm-O)
am i the only one who remembers the bbb having min and max choke settings?

Nope, you aren't. Min 2, max 10. I've never given an example that breaks those (and I don't think anyone else has, either); and if the Choke setting is not mentioned in a message, it's usually obvious from the numbers.

QUOTE
also i think the lowering of the damage level makes it all fair, with a min/max choke that is

You mean any of the house rule suggestions that have been mentioned, like -1 DL/3 choke steps (D/D/D/S/S/S/M/M/M/L)? Yep, they make shotguns a whole lot more fair. Dropping the Spread area to a sensible level (never more than 2 or 3 meters) helps, too. I still think getting rid of the whole Choke and Spread system altogether is better, but I understand that some don't want that.
Crusher Bob
Erm, why not just give shot a -1 TN modifier and have the damage level drop every range band. This means you don't need to worry about choke settings and can get back to playing the game. Or, you could just increase the dodge TN for shot by one and drop the damage level every range band. Simple, does no let you hills full of people and everything...
Glyph
The problem people have is this: ranged combat in Shadowrun works by comparing the total successes. So if something lowers your TN to the point that you can get nearly automatic successes, that makes it a far more effective weapon than one that needs, say, a 5 or better to hit at the same range. At near maximum range for a Defiance T-250, you may only do 1S damage, but you have -9 to your Target Number. So you are far likelier to get targets that are moving, behind cover, etc. than someone with a standard smartlink and/or vision magnification. Sure, the target can resist the damage easily (unless they are dumb enough to waste Combat Pool trying to dodge rather than soak the damage), but if you get, say, 12 successes, then if they get 10 successes they still take a Deadly wound!

What is illogical, and makes it broken, is that the shotgun loses power, going from 10S to 1S, but at no point does the level drop. 1 power, but still S base damage? I agree with others that the wound level should drop at certain intervals, as well. That would make the shotgun effective still, but less likely to kill armored people at extreme range.

Crusher Bob, your solution would work also, but it would tend to underpower shotguns (maybe that's how it should be, since the flavor text makes it sound like shot rounds are supposed to be very ineffective against body armor).
toturi
A fix that I use is that I take every piece of cover within the spread and between the intended target as extra targets and award extra cover die per extra shotgun target rules p 117. That way it is damned easy to soak.
BitBasher
So cover that is in the spread but NOT inbetween the shooter and target somehow helps the target? Did I read that right?!?
toturi
Well, in an abstract way, the cover is in between the shooter and target. Every piece of cover along the way soaks a bit of the damage because that is how I see the choke rules function.

Since the damage falls per choke value that means for an increase in hit probability, the damage is spread evenly over the spread area and the cover would stand in the way of the spread just like any other target, just that cover is an unintended one.
Zach21035
I just think it's hilarious that, firing into a crowd, I could theoretically kill a few dozen people with a single round of buckshot. Must load it up with fragments of the bullet that killed Kennedy or something.
Centurion
Or, when stealth is not needed/no longer possible, can't go wrong with a Dragon's Breath shotgun shell.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
http://www.azweapons.com/AmmoPics/dragon.jpg

I hope you have flash compensation.
dEdDaWg
Ok... so this happened just the other day:

My character is invisible, and not yet spotted. Another player's character gets shot, but I'm caught in the shotgun blast. Do you compare the "to-hit" roll vs the T# of each individual target? What if I was behind cover?
Luke Hardison
As per the shotgun rules (SR3, p. 117) you would be a valid target. The attacker would have the number of successes for his shot (he was shooting AT the other person), and you would dodge/stage based on those successes.

As for if you were under cover ... I seem to remember that you would get extra body dice for resisting the damage, but I don't know where that came from, and I can't find the reference right now.
Buzzed
I would house rule as a GM that flechette ammo automatically does no damage to targets whenever the power is reduced to 0 or less, including situations where armor reduces it to 0 or less. Also, I would allow them to defend the attack at a power of 1(automatic successes, if it helps.) Overriding the minimum of power 2 rule for flechette shots.
Corywn
QUOTE (Buzzed)
I would house rule as a GM that flechette ammo automatically does no damage to targets whenever the power is reduced to 0 or less, including situations where armor reduces it to 0 or less. Also, I would allow them to defend the attack at a power of 1(automatic successes, if it helps.) Overriding the minimum of power 2 rule for flechette shots.

That's called Hardened. Normal armor isn't Hardened, even against pithy little Flechette.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Hmmm...maybe it might be more balanced or at least simple to consider all armour to be hardened against shotgun spread. Those 2D blasts would be irrellevant, but a 7D could still be signifigant.
The Jopp
Hmm...

Staging Damage usually means that a person has managed to aim extremely well or just got damn lucky, and with a shotgun you almost never miss...

How about this solution then? Take two onions, one few tomatoes and a few potatoes and chop them up into bite sized pieces. Fry it all in a well heated pan and...

*Brainfuse* indifferent.gif indifferent.gif indifferent.gif

Oops, sorry, talked to the wrong braincell. Dinner department interupted my shadowrun section. wobble.gif

Back to topic.

For each -1 to the TN to hit due to Choke setting the attacker must have one additional success when calculating for staging.

Example.

Attacker A shoots Target T and has a TN of 5 to hit but adjusts his choke setting so that he needs a 3 to hit. Let's assume that the Damage is dropped the same amount of steps as well. A's shotgun does a base damage of 8S and has now dropped to 6S due to Choke.

He fires his gun and gains five successes and needs at least four of them to stage the damage up to deadly. (2 successes + TN modifier of 2 (5-2= 3+ to hit))

T manages to dodge with a factor of 3 and takes a base damage of 6S.

Opinion?
Kagetenshi
Still really easy to cause serious damage (in the game-mechanics sense as well as the colloquial), but this makes it somewhat less instantly lethal, at least. Two shots will still do nearly anyone.
Your other suggestion, I like it, but add some garlic. Not much of a fan of tomato myself, but YMMV.

~J
Fortune
*Fortune applies Trauma Patch to thread.*

I've been thinking about this, and have come up with an something that may or may not be viable.

Use the rules as written in regards to lowering the TN in relation to the choke setting. When working out the attacker's staging however, make the number of successes needed to stage the weapon up equal to the choke setting (minimum of 2 as always). Setting the shotgun's choke at 5 would result in the attacker needing 5 successes to stage the damage up one level. Note that the defender still stages down as normal (2 successes/level).

Comments?
toturi
Consider: Everything and everyone within the area of spread is considered a valid target. EVERYTHING. The light fixtures, walls, trash cans, floor are all valid targets.

So if you apply that every meter of flooring/wall is a valid target (no, there's nothing in the book that says every meter is a target), then you can award a ton of additional dice to the intended target's DR test. Almost certainly, the ground is within the shotgun spread unless the target is shooting out of a window or a helicopter. If standing in a 1m doorway and shooting into a room, the door frame is a valid target, the door is a valid target, the door knob is a valid target, the chair is a valid target, the table is a valid target, the small bonsai is a valid target, I think you get my point. (Remember, air, being a thing, is also a valid target, so if every cubic metre of air... biggrin.gif)

The GM can be well within his rights (and backed up with Canon rules) to award additional dice left and right. If he so chooses, he may well award more dice than the PC has shotgun+combat pool dice.

Then it becomes an interpretation of the Canon rules, and the player can't rules lawyer it.
Zazen
QUOTE (Fortune)
I've been thinking about this, and have come up with an something that may or may not be viable.

Use the rules as written in regards to lowering the TN in relation to the choke setting. When working out the attacker's staging however, make the number of successes needed to stage the weapon up equal to the choke setting (minimum of 2 as always). Setting the shotgun's choke at 5 would result in the attacker needing 5 successes to stage the damage up one level. Note that the defender still stages down as normal (2 successes/level).

I think it's a great idea. It makes it easy to hit someone with a big spread and also makes skill matter less when the spread is large. I'll be trying that out immediately.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Zazen)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 7 2004, 03:07 AM)
I've been thinking about this, and have come up with an something that may or may not be viable.

Use the rules as written in regards to lowering the TN in relation to the choke setting. When working out the attacker's staging however, make the number of successes needed to stage the weapon up equal to the choke setting (minimum of 2 as always). Setting the shotgun's choke at 5 would result in the attacker needing 5 successes to stage the damage up one level. Note that the defender still stages down as normal (2 successes/level).

I think it's a great idea. It makes it easy to hit someone with a big spread and also makes skill matter less when the spread is large. I'll be trying that out immediately.

Forgive me if I don't know the shotgun rules well— because I don't— but wouldn't that require 10 dice to stage with the narrowest choke possible and only 2 dice with the widest? And, if so, it's elegant, but, y'know, backwards.
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Forgive me if I don't know the shotgun rules well— because I don't— but wouldn't that require 10 dice to stage with the narrowest choke possible and only 2 dice with the widest? And, if so, it's elegant, but, y'know, backwards.


Yeah... increasing your choke value decreases the spread of the shot. How about this modification: since the choke can be set to anywhere between 2 and 10, use the formula (12-choke) to determine the number of successes required to stage up the damage.
Austere Emancipator
Actually, it'd be better if the number of successes to stage up was the choke step. So if you have choke setting 10, you require 2 successes to stage up up to 19 meters, 3 successes at 20-29 meters, 4 successes at 30-39 meters, etc.

This is slightly off, because the lethality of a single shot (a single ball) is the pretty much the same, regardless of the choke setting, at a particular range, but the amount of shot that hits the target is a bigger problem.

Varying stage-up success amount by the choke setting (12-choke) would make killing people with a low choke more difficult even at very short ranges, which is not very reasonable. Similarly, it would keep the incredible killing power of a 10-meter spread at 100 meters unchanged. The way Fortune originally suggested it, the problems would be opposite: Choke setting 10 would be unreasonably difficult to kill with at short ranges, while choke 2 would be unreasonably easy to kill with at the highest spreads.

Zazen
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Actually, it'd be better if the number of successes to stage up was the choke step. So if you have choke setting 10, you require 2 successes to stage up up to 19 meters, 3 successes at 20-29 meters, 4 successes at 30-39 meters, etc.

That's what I thought he meant when I misread it, using the width of the spread as the stage-up number. Anyway, that's what I'll be trying out.
Fortune
Yeah, I meant the wider the choke setting, the more successes needed by the attacker to stage damage up. I didn't reference the rules before I posted, so I apologize for getting it backwards. smile.gif

Let me know how it works, Zazen.
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