Wounded Ronin
Sep 1 2008, 05:53 PM
So, it turns out there's an actual web site dedicated to the study of humiliation.
http://www.humiliationstudies.org/index.phpAfter my initial disappointment that it wasn't an S&M site had passed, I realized that it actually seems like a worthy area of study. People seem to have a real mad-on for humiliation. Lots of the big disasters in the world, like World War II, seem to have been humiliation-fueled, i.e. Germans feeling upset about having been pwn't in WWI and having been in dire economic straits for a long time as a direct results.
Why is it that people have to get so bent out of shape over humiliation? Why can't people just say, "Well, I admit that I basically suck in this situation, but for the sake of the greater good I'll just decide not to care, as opposed to getting crazygonuts and trying to take over the whole of Europe."? I feel like percieved humiliation amounts to a political tool that can get people do do things which are against their own best interest and against the greater best interest of the entire world as a whole.
Basically, IMO being preoccupied with humiliation amounts to being extremely self-absorbed.
But, seeing as apparently humiliation does motivate so many people with so much energy, I think that from the standpoint of character development and constructing believable situations in role playing games, humiliation could actually be an important tool in a GM's toolbox. Do you want to make a character sympathetic in his or her quest for vengance? I guess you could work some element of humiliation into that since probably most people would understand that motivation, but at the same time you would have to be careful not to go overboard and make your character an un-sympathetic RPG equivalent of a Goth or Emo kid.
Do you have any thoughts on the role of humiliation as a character motivator, or as motivation for groups of characters? In a situation like the Shadowrun world, where economic disempowerment is part of the setting, do you feel that humiliation felt by certain social classes or groups of people should be a running theme of the game world?
Reg06
Sep 2 2008, 02:11 AM
Humiliation works wonders. When a player's monster of a tank can't seem to hit the broadside of an aircraft carrier, and the decker has a higher kill count you can be damn sure player A is going to get real creative.
Glyph
Sep 2 2008, 03:56 AM
I would shy away from humiliating a character. It makes the confrontation especially personal, and the player will pretty much be obsessed with getting even with that NPC, to the detriment of any other plot you are running, or anything else you might want to do with that character. And if they fail to get revenge, it can completely sour them on the game.
apollo124
Sep 2 2008, 05:08 AM
Humiliation can be a good character motivator, when used in moderation. It can also be a riot when it happens in-game, especially when it's brought on by the player. Case in point:
I was running a D+D 2nd ed game, when the characters came up to a cliff they had to scale to continue on their way. 50 feet straight up to a small ledge, then another 50 feet up to the plateau. Everyone got out their climbing tools, ropes, etc... except the assassin. He had an extremely high "Climb walls" score, so he just starts free climbing. Passes the ledge, and finally blows a roll at the 80 foot level. As the DM, I gave him chances to stop his fall when he started, when he hit the ledge, and at least once more on the way to the ground. He blew them all and landed on his back, where his glass vials of poisons and acids were kept. We all laughed our butts off when he ended up at about -150 hp. Not even enough left to Raise Dead on.
In SR, I had a character whose primary motivation was humiliation-based. The mage had a pet theory on an undiscovered type of spirit and got laughed out of MIT+T when he did his thesis on it. He hit the shadows to find an example of the spirit type and bring it back to the college for show and tell and mayhem.
deek
Sep 2 2008, 01:53 PM
In a squad based Hero Systems game, I created a character that basically was always second best to my friend's character. It was always fun to try and beat him, in-game, and seeing we talked it over with the GM, he always worked in a way for me to finish second. It was a lot of fun...
I have another character, DnD4, that I am playing right now that is kinda weird...very dirty and has a pet beetle that he talks to all the time. The other players, built more as typical heroes, take time to ridicule and humiliate my character whenever they can...but it tends to be a lot of fun to deal with that stuff in-character than just worrying about what power to choose and how many dice to roll for an attack...
nezumi
Sep 2 2008, 03:08 PM
Humiliation is a very dangerous role-playing tool. Humiliation is not a feeling we generally enjoy. We can get hopped up on righteous indignation, curiosity, anger, etc. and even enjoy it, but few people enjoy humiliation. As a GM, I would avoid inflicting it on PCs, as it may bleed over to the player and cause frustration with the game. I've never really tried it as a player. I don't know that I'd personally enjoy it. However, a player who has the appropriate separation between character and self, and who is really a good, strong roleplayer, may be able to use it to great effect. At minimum, very few munchkins will intentionally humiliate their characters. I would be interested to see how that sort of a character turns out.
Blade
Sep 2 2008, 03:42 PM
First of all, don't humiliate the player.
Second, don't humiliate the character to make him lose face. Nobody enjoys that (except maybe some S&M players or in some cases where it might fit the character).
What does that leave? First of all minor setbacks. These aren't humiliations: nobody is immune to failure.
Then comes motivating humiliations. If the PC get beaten, captured and insulted by the Big Bad, it's just so that it'll be much more satisfying to kick his butt. You just have to let the player know that he'll have a chance to set things right again, so that he doesn't take it badly.
deek
Sep 2 2008, 06:03 PM
I'd agree, a munchkin is not going to like being humiliated at all. It does take a certain kind of player to get into a non-heroic character (in the general sense). And I do think its key to have a very clear separation between character and self...and you have to have some sort of believable range when playing him...
Personally, as long as I don't feel the GM is constantly picking on me and the overall level of success is moving forward, I'll easily take the negative aspects that gets doled out on a particular character, especially if that is part of why I created him. It turns a normal session of "ho-hum" into some dynamic role-playing. Obviously, not everyone wants to do that every session, but having that option, can sometimes get the rollplayers involved in something beyond just the dice.
Wesley Street
Sep 3 2008, 06:02 PM
My GM philosophy: don't humiliate the player or the PC. Let him humiliate himself when he chooses not to listen, pay attention or play well with others.
Backgammon
Sep 3 2008, 10:39 PM
I had a GM that loved his NPCs. A lot. His NPCs were always much more badass than us, and he had to show how silly we acted and how dumb we were compared to his really bad ass NPCs, who always acted cooler than us - like the kid brother hanging out with the cool older kids.
Needless to say, I do not recomment doing this.
ReverendMo
Sep 4 2008, 11:25 PM
In my experience, even the worst humiliations can become a strong springboard for motivation and character development if the player is mature. The trouble is, especially with something as emotionally charged as humiliation, it can have very drastic side effects.
I've seen players I'd otherwise describe as fairly mature and well-balanced bring their characters to utter self-destruction, even ready to kill off the *rest of the group* just for one chance to "get even."
I've also seen stories get utterly ruined by the opposite; the GM through Big Bad or the Deus Ex NPC makes the PCs feel so insignificant in comparison that the concept of revenge never enters the mind, regardless of how many cheesy 80's training montages they throw out. The PCs just don't think they'd ever get to that point, and move on.
In summary, humiliation can be a great motivator, but can also crush their spirits or cause them to try and suicide the group in order to bloody a nose back. Use at your own risk.
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