So in my game I'm about to have a guy wandering around in Phoenix in 100 degree summer weather wearing an armored jacket or longcoat.

Would you guys do anything about that or just let it go? I'm thinking at least giving them BO by noon if they're outside and have them stick out a bit even in crowds.

This day and age? He's probably got the damn thing temperature-controlled.

I've talked to people who have spent an Iraqi summer in full armor (like 70 pound vests). It sucks to do this at 130 degrees, but it's doable if you are in good shape and have lots of water and electrolytes.

It's not practical now to cool body armor, but it's something the army spends a significant amount of money on. With the battery tech that seems to be handwaved I'd assume that you can do this in SR. It does mean you are going to be putting out a ton of heat and look very interesting in long IR.

But in Phoenix in summer I'd expect everyone middle class or up is doing this.

Hmmm. Yeah. I could see coolant systems for the summer being popular. Not even just for armor but sort of as a reverse coat. Just have something with some micro freon converters in the back.

But no I wasn't worried about them being able to physically handle it, unless they were outside a long time or got stuck without liquids. More of a matter of comfort and sticking out.

Anyone wearing a jacket in Phoenix outside in the summer sticks out now. I'm not so sure about the future, particuarly if you could be more comfortable with a jacket on that off. But an armored jacket is essentially just body armor. It or the longcoat would certainly stick out if you don't have lots of people wearing obvious body armor.

Of course ,they could go for the upscale look... (I hate flash sites, as you can't link to the page you want to go...). Select english, products, MC Black or Gold collections.

Any dude wandering Arizona in a jacket needs to start making progressively more difficult body tests - or survival tests - not to pass the hell out. Target: Wastelands had rules on it, actually, which could easily be adapted for SR4. I mean, there's no way you could argue Phoenix DOESN'T somehow qualify as a desert just because it's also a city.

I thnk the distinction is that in phoenix you can step inside an airconditioned gas station or something and chug some gatoraid or what have you.

Still it'd be a lot of sweat without cooling.

People adapt to different climates too. Here in southern Australia, 22 degrees is t-shirt weather, but in India they put jumpers on. O.o

There are practical limits, but if he has his longcoat on all the time he'd acclimate to it somewhat. Sure, he'd be sweating, but let's be honest, so is everyone else.

Of course, if he pays for a luxury model with an internal cooling unit, he might bet odd looks but he'd feel fine.

Use the armor rules as written but use 1.5 x Body or even 1 x Body for really high temps as the limit before penalties apply instead of the usual 2 x Body.

About the odd looks... if every one from the lower middleclass on will be wearing clothing with cooling units, the guy in question might not stick out so much (at least in some areas). You would however be able to tell, that he has a certain minimum of funds, to afford that stuff - not being poor will stand out in poor areas. If he is wearing obvious bodyarmor, he will ofcause, almost alway stand out - hot or not.

Keep in mind, any physical exertion cuts your functional time damn near in half. Arizona is a dry heat, which helps in some respects, but you also tend not to notice just how hot it is until you're a borderline heat case.

The difference between Tucson and Iraq? Iraq has more crap in the air.

-Siege

More food for thought: a very good quality leather jacket actually breathes and keeps a body cool so you'll often see men and women wearing them even in the height of summer in L.A.. I'd imagine that the armor lining of the 2070s is some type of porous microfiber that allows for both comfort and protection without the need for an artificial cooling system.

As far as all this "obvious armor" crap, most people in shadowrun wear something. Even if its just armored clothing. The longcoats and stuff aren't "obvious armor" anymore than wearing a normal jacket is now.

Now, mill-spec stuff, and that, is excessive unless you're in swat or something, but just weaing an armored jacket or vest or something? Not sticking out at all.

But armored jackets and vests are mil-spec. They're the equivalent of a flak jacket, or a heavy Kevlar patrol vest. Granted, that's nothing compared to hardened armor, though.

What?

Armored Jackets and Vest are not mil-spec. At all.

We need a RAW definition of mil-spec armor before this degrades into "yes it is/no it isn't". Because I don't know the difference other than the loose categories in Arsenal and BBB. If it has a restricted or forbidden rating next to it, it's military or security grade armor, correct?

Anything which is 12F/R+ is military or law enforcement.

-Chrysalis

"They're the equivalent of a flak jacket, or a heavy Kevlar patrol vest." Sure, with futuretech materials that basically let you have a jacket thats as good as a flak jacket, but still looks pretty much like an everyday jacket. TO the point where most everyone has standard vets/jackets/clothing in their wardrobes.

To boot, out of the armor listed, only chameleon suits, and full body armor is restritcted at all.

Also, there is a very distinct section that is military armor in arsenal, page 50. Under the heading "Military grade armor" and is called light, medium, or heavy military armor. Just a guess here, but I'm pretty sure military armor is mil-spec gear.

Surprise Surprise, all milspec is F.

>military armor is mil-spec gear
It even says that parenthetically. 4th ed mil-spec is armor that is custom fitted and encumbers at x3 body rather than x2, and can receive the specially listed mods.

No. That's a trait of mil-spec armor, but it is not limited to mil-spec armor.

Really? Arse, 50, "Each suit must be custom-fit to an individual, tailored to her specifi c body contours and range of motion. This decreases the armor’s encumbrance (see p. 148, SR4); the character wearing the armor is only encumbered if either armor rating exceeds the character’s Body x 3."

Since no other armor has this text, it is in fact, limited to mil-spec armor.

... ? Do you care to point out the non-mil-spec armor that uses either of those runs, or the mil-spec armor that doesn't?I'm pretty sure that: Mil-spec IFF x3 bod for encumbrance and takes mil-spec mods.

Arsenal p. 44, "Tweaking Armor Encumbrance."

Do keep in mind, if it's hot enough to restrict people from wearing jackets and coats, that also means they (PCs and NPCs alike) will have more trouble concealing weapons. Doesn't help much against dedicated guards who carry openly, but against other covert baddies, it's at least some consolation.

Optional rule. By that logic, just say you're doing it where customized armor ignores any encumbrance. Better than mil-spec and totally legal to boot!

<rolls eyes> Whatever.

<puts on idiot cap> Hey, you know what? I'm going to pull your arguing tactic and just ignore the word "Optional." Because, you see, the second line of the paragraph that says they're optional says they instead COMPLIMENT the rules! Thus they are not optional in any way, shape or form. <removes idiot cap>

Obviously from the book most body armor is something little timmy can probably buy down at Kong/Wal Mart.

As for appearance, if you have to wonder what it's like you owe it to youself to check out
www.miguelcaballero.com I suggest poking around the gold collection


Or if you'd rather see the fashion show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx1O712emzI...feature=related

Or if you just want to see somebody in an armored jacket get shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm-krL1vxLU...feature=related

Note that in previous editions you could make a perception test to tell if a piece of clothing was armor or not. You could still do that in 4th. I'd say maybe a threshold of 3 for looking 1 for touching?

What part did I ignore? You were referencing, Arse, 44, "Allow characters to buy customized armor that is specially-tailored for their specific bodies (much like how military-grade armor is fit to each person). Custom-fit armor could either ignore encumbrance entirely, or increase the armor allowance to Body x 3."
Right? Why can't I buy customized armor tailored for me, that isn't mil-spec, at no encumbrance penalty? Its legal, and I can stack as much customized stuff as I want together.

Actually, at the begining of the chapter, this is listed as an optional rule for all armor to be customized.

Mil-spec just has this automatically, regardless if your group is using the rule or not.

Military armor upgrades, however, are exclusive to mil-spec armor.

EDIT
Looks like I was late on this. Ignore anything that has already been said regarding mil-spec.
/EDIT

As for the armored vest/jacket, those look identical to any other vest or jacket; there is nothing about their appearance that tells you they are armor (unless yours is pimped), and they are quite common.

Regarding the original question, my impression was that all modern clothing/armor has at least some form of air conditioning standard, so you could easily expect numerous people to be wearing them in the middle of a Phoenix summer, quite possibly more so than autumn or spring. No, such a character would not stick out.

I know. I was just pulling a Tarantula and using selective-reading in my sarcastic response above. I mean, afterall, it says it's a complimentary rule for armor after it says it's an optional rule, so clearly the latter bit of text supercedes it in all ways. Much like how Echolocation isn't an acoustic sense because it references the rules for ultrasound later on.


Yes, I know. Hence my original comment. It's a characteristic for mil-spec armor but is not limited to mil-spec armor.


Nah, it's not standard per se, but it's a common option. Some armor even specifically make reference to it, such as the Globetrotter set in Arsenal. It's one of those flavor things. You just have to say it includes such a feature and it does.

It is limited to mil-spec armor, unless using an optional rule. In which case normal armor can possibly supercede mil-spec armor.

Hi all let's look at what Dr. Funkenstein is talking about


some how he thinks that the fallowing two MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE ways of handling armor are core RAW and not options.

Or did I miss understand your position?

Yes. That's exactly what I said. Pretty stupid to ignore one line of text, huh? Go read over the Echolocation thread then get back to me. Maybe after you do so, you'll get just why I said exactly that. (Translation: Sorry, neither a burn, a put down, nor an "omfg I proved him wrong LOLOL I R SO SMART!!11!" observation on your part.)

And for the record, the two rules that followed are not "MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE." One suggests ignoring encumbrance completely if it's just one piece of armor, the other allows you to customize any armor (not just mil-spec) to gain the x3 limitation over the x2 one when wearing multiple pieces.

Sorry to interrupt your flamewar here, but regarding the original topic, i've looked through the BBB and A70 to find armor modification that would enable somebody to use armor in hot climates...and i haven't found anything.

The modifications table on p.44 in A70 mentions a mod called environment modification, but it is nowhere in A70, not in the chapter itself nor in the tables at the end of the book.
It is not in the BBB either.
I assume it could be referring to radiation shielding, as it is the only mod that does not appear in the table.

So, if i'm not mistaken and haven't missed any errata, the only piece of armor specifically adapted to hot climates is the Dune-style desert suit on p. 59, A70, which can not be combined with any other kind of armor without offsetting its cooling capacity.

As mentioned previously in the thread, such "modifications" are pure flavor text. You can find an example of it in the description for Globetrotter armor in Arsenal. SR4 p. 315, "Clothing and Armor," touches upon the topic about fluff modifications for armor.

In other words, as long as it doesn't provide any significant game benefit and is within the realm of reason, it's pretty much free and reasonable to tack it onto your clothing and armor.

I'm sorry, but I find this completely unacceptable. The very idea that I can allow myself or my players come up with a perfectly plausible modification to existing equipment that isn't directly spelled out in RAW is wrong, wrong, WRONG!

WTF are you thinking?!? Just giving players and GMs to the power to make stuff up like that!

And historically, most people wore more clothing not less in hot and sunny climates (especially those with little or no shade).

If nothing else so they didn't get sun burn.

The long coat is styled after the duster of the American West.

You also didn't see people in the 1850 to 1950 running around in shorts in the tank tops either in the the American West, Australian Outback, or the Sahara.

The Crusaders most certainly wore armor in the middle east. And the traditional long flowing robes of the middle east are used because they work.

I can see the point that in Hawaii and places like that too much clothing is out of place specially on the beach, but most places don't have nearly that nice of weather. Just driving a motorcycle gives you a reason to wear leathers. You add in "street" style wear.

Besides, the islanders didn't have effective agricultural sources of cotton and other textile materials. It's a lot easier to get a hold of the covering garments when your culture can make the things effectively, no?

I don't see this as a problem. With SR tech... I could see people wearing thermal long johns which can pump either hot or cold 'coolant' through the material to either heat or cool their body underneath their clothes and armor.

Is personal AC/climate control really all that far fetched given all the other tech in shadowrun... really they've already done prototypes w/ todays tech, and I don't see it going anywhere but smaller.

While you make a strong point, there's a difference between cover and insulation. I have difficulty believing that armor made to stop a bullet travelling at a few thousand feet per second is lightweight, thin and breathes. You can wear a light, cotton shirt at high noon, but wearing a thick, wool sweater is not a good idea.

Re: the crusaders, while they did wear their armor in the middle east, it was a major contribution towards their ultimate failure in several major battles. Notice the natives wore lightweight leather armor with limited metal trim, allowing for air circulation, less density and lower heat absorbtion.

Your point is valid but I'd like to point out that armor materials in 70 years time are more likely to be breathable synthetic armor weaves than solid slabs of molded plastic or Kevlar. No, you don't want to wear a wool sweater in the desert (it's a Northern European invention designed to keep fishermen warm and dry) but you can wear a leather jacket which is more heavy but also more breathable.

First: I addressed your position that I was ignoring text in the echolocation thread. Go there and make your refutations.

Next, your options presented are wrong. There are 2 bullet points, the first as you said, suggests ignoring encumbrance compltely if its just one piece of armor. The second allows customization of any armor, and says that it can ignore encumbrance entirely, OR increase the armor allowance to body x3.

Not just one, but either or. So, I, as a player, would buy every single piece of armor, and customize it all to fit with no encumbrance. Why? Because you're using a very poorly thought out optional rule, that gives no reason to make it no encumbrance or x3.

Not my leather jacket. My jacket must have some additional insulation in it or something. Not only is it heavy, but it really gets hot fast. However, I do just fine in my cotton mil surplus jacket.

While I do believe in SR they have superior technology and all that, I still find it hard to believe that the armor has shrunk down that much that it's suddenly comfortable. Original flak jackets (Vietnam era) didn't protect against bullets at all. While modern ones have been getting gradually smaller, there's basic laws of physics to keep in mind, the balance between mass and energy. Even assuming bullet/firearm technology never improves (which would seem to be a false assumption), the amount of energy behind a rifle bullet needs to be distributed over a fairly large mass to result in the degree of safety we get in SR. So regardless as to what sort of super polymer weaves we discover in 50 years, physics will always require that armor with that degree of protection have a certain amoutn of bulk and size, and bulk means insulation.

The "bulk" from armor comes from the necessary material to stop the round. The super fancy polymer weaves would be able to usually stop bullets with less bulk, because they're super fancy.

Considering the high-point of SR micro-armor, Orthoskin - something that can provide up to 3/3 armor and be virtually unnoticable under the skin with no negative effects on the body's thermal regulation - I don't think it would be all that far out of reach to allow breathable fabric-based armor no thicker than modern denim.

I would like to see you try to talk your GM into allowing that. I lean towards thinking the rule is poorly worded, as it seems pretty obvious to me that the customized no encumberance armor is meant to be used in the same manner as the one in the first rule. Which is to say, only one piece.

What armour, exactly, is a Body 2 character supposed to wear? FFBA or a mishmash of Securtech pieces? They're encumbered by an armoured business suit. The customized 3XBody rule is a very good one.

You're ignoring common sense for the sake of arguing a point. SR4 is a system deliberately made abstract and somewhat ambiguous to give the GM more wiggle room in defining his Sixth World. The two do not mix well.

the armor mod in question is on page 316 of the core rulebook, under the description of the full body armor (price listed under full body armor in the gear list on the same page also). it is well-hidden, but does in fact exist.

it could presumably be applied to any kind of full body armor, not just the stuff in the core rule book.

And as I've always said, for discussion on dumpshock regarding balance, there needs to be a break between what the rules say and mean, and how you would use them. The rules do allow for you to customize and wear every single piece of armor in the book at once. Probably not what was intended, but if thats they case, they should fix it.

The trick with body armor isn't only strength. It is rigidity too.

Even today, ballistic weaves are strong enough to stop bullets with relatively thin materials. The problem is that it might take 4-5 inches to bring the bullet to a stop. This is enough to cause severe injury to the wearer, even though the bullet has not actually touched the wearer yet.

For this reason, extra ballistic materials are added to make the vest stiffer, but not totally inflexible.

Now, in the near future, it is likely that materials will exist that are flexible when needed, and rigid when needed. This kind of thing would drastically shrink the thickness, of body armor. (Look up shear-thickening fluids and ferrofluids for two paths in this direction.)

It sounds like your jacket has a liner. Mine came with one and I was able to zip out the padding and just wear the leather bit. I typically put the liner back in for winter. Leather motorcycle jackets work on the same principle else all those hog and crotch rocket-riders who actually ride safe would be overheating and passing out in the summer.