Been reading over some of the various rules for survival, and the threats book talking about the dangers of outerspace, and concidered this.

Actually, for starting characters, I can't really see this happening, due to background count, but, for someone with several grades of intiation behind him or her, and a very high magic score... 13 or better.. I see posibilities. Quickening and a good bit of Karma would increase your survival chances.

You need, Radiation Shielding, Armor (sense with no inertia, even sand can be dangerous, as it picks up speed), Air (can use Oxigenate, or a alterversion of the Elemental wall to create a air bubble), something to keep your temperature steady, so that it's not to cold or too hot... Alter Temperature isn't enough, you need a maintain temperature spell... going to need some spells like Nutrition to survive long term too.

Now, you could drop all of this into one spell, but when I tried that, it came out to about DV: (F/2) + 13.. .. so if you do that, you better have a lot of drain dice, and have quickening, cause otherwise, the spell will end when you drop unconscious.

So, anyone else have any thoughts about how one might do this? Or think I missed anything? Would you even let a Character do this?

Imho, every spell would vanish into nothingness there, as it gets "attacked" every combat round with 12DV... (ok, the rules only talk about characters, but I think it's strange that an spell should be able to exist there without any trouble *g*)

if the character actually managed to get himself with that much power up there?
hell yeah i would allow it o.O
that's probably a 500 karma character, he is supposed to do such crazy shit for a living or to get out of the shadows O.o

I thought there wasn't enough mana in outerspace to cast spells...

that was before, now it's just a rating 12 mana warp or shallow(hell if i can remember) as far as i remember . . yes, fluff-wise anyone attempting magic up there will go insane and/or die in a spectacular way . . but rules wise, it's not all that impossible again . .

Bah... surviving space is easy... just put a cyberzombie in your backpack... or random SURGE'd critter w/ astral static (can't remember the exact name).

It says right there. They override any local condition with a rating 4 aspected background count! Which IMO proves once again, devs are smoking stuff, and don't even bother trying to playtest half the stuff they write. (it sounds cool, lets write it, who cares that the rules are broken and WAY undercosted).

Under SR4, spells are no longer vulnerable to being attacked (as they could in earlier editions) - they are not an astral form of their own (as they were in earlier editions) - and this is why Counterspelling is used to break them rather than Astral Combat.

Playing in space with a mage is just silly. The mage REALLY would not want go up the well. There are PLENTY of ways to die right here on Earth. Most of them won't really hurt you as long as trying magic in space.

I did come up with rules for Psionics (which would give you "magic" in space), but it got about zero interest. These rules were NOT munchkin rules. Heck most of the people who responded said I was being a bit mean to the Psions. If anyone is interested in the rules send me a PM with the address you want me to send them to. I'll post them here if I get the permission of the OP. It's his/her thread and I'm not thread jacking it.

actually, you would need a magic attribute of 19 or more if i'm not mistaken, if you want to cast spells in outer space. why, you ask?

well, first of all, your magic attribute will be reduced by 12. this brings you to a magic attribute of 7. you need a magic attribute of 7, because any spell of force 12 or less has it's force reduced to 0 (or less), which means you cannot generate any hits at all, let alone net hits. thus, our spellcaster will need to have a magic attribute of 19 (reduced to 7 in space) in order to be able to overcast spells at a sufficiently high force that they won't instantly get nuked.

you could, however, have a mage with a magic rating of 7+ who casts spells of force 13 or more on earth, and then those spells could go into space, theoretically. but actually casting in space is just not realistically happening anytime soon.

As far as the setting is concerned, anyone casting a spell in space is only hampered by the lack of mana. There isn't any mana in the background in space, but the magician has an aura, which is in and of itself, mana. He has to fuel the magic himself, with his own aura/soul. Magic becomes more draining, and more dangerous.

I couldn't find it with a quick search of 4th ed. rules, but I thought the force of active spells were supposed to be reduced in a void as well. Since the force of a spell limits the successes from casting the spell, pre-cast spells would still have their effectiveness greatly reduced.

Three barrier spells would protect against problems with pressure, debris and radiation. As an occasional GM, I'd say you need force/armor rating 12 for each. Lower force nutrition or fast, AND an oxygenate would take care of the rest. So if the force of an active spell is reduced by rating of a mana void (I would house-rule such, if the RAW didn't support that assumption), then you need to be able to cast force 24 pressure(air), radiation, and regular barrier spells. All of this assume that someone is looking for the mage so he doesn't need to prepare for re-entry on his own too. (I wouldn't try it as a player unless the GM gave us the karma required to have a well rounded character that had an active magic attribute of at least 18)

In previous editions, mana voids did damage spells, and increased drain for spellcasting in voids.

KCKitsune: I have no problem with you posting anything you like in this particular thread, as long as it's along the lines being discussed.

I love the responses, btw, plenty of stuff to concider and thing over.

Mind you, I sort of disagree with the idea of Mages not going up the well, as you say, in fact, should shadowrun continue further into the future I concider it inevitable....

Magic could be extremely useful with regards to terraforming, helping raise biospheres and archologies on the Moon, or in the asteroid belt.. etc. Also, where the corps go, runners will go, and magic is very useful to runners, as long as it's fully avalible.

Of course, one has to be a fairly high grade initiate to have workable magic in deep space, but once you have biospheres, terraformed planets, and the like.. some of which is quite a ways into the future for shadowrun, but others are closer, you have lower background counts in those spots, some of them might even have enough for a regular mage.

The Moon, for example, has a mana warp of -8, build a biosphere large enough, I'd say at least 100 square miles, of garden, and you might raise the mana in that particular location to a low ebb, or even to 0..

Why is this important, well, I've speculated a time or two of pushing a shadowrun game... or at least a shadowrun based back forward an 100 to 300 years or so, just to change things around a bit, push technolgy, ect.

Didn't Damien Knight have personal bodyguard mages and bodydoubles who trained their magic in space?

Yep. Ares's elite mages train in space and their Bug-killing operatives as based in space (it's the safest enviroment to enter The Hive from because it reduces the potential for Bugs to follow you home and, if push comes to shove, the station can be destroyed.)

Basically, if you're a half-decent magician in space then you're an extremely powerful magician on the ground, and Ares takes advantage of that by training people to be half-decent magicians in space and then either bringing them back down or leaving them up and having them go on Astral Quests against extraplanar menaces.

I am reading the Commonwealth books by Peter F Hamilton and I kept thinking of Shadowrun
I realised the wormhole tech in the books makes a lot of sense for a space era version of SR.
It avoids the whole lack of mana issue in Space while allowing alien worlds and civilisations.

Personally if I ever considered running a Space based campaign now, I would skip Star Wars and just go for a Commonwealth/Shadowrun concept.

I'll wait for Redbrick's Equinox, which is apparently the official FASA-approved Shadowrun in Space.

OK, Here are the rules that I created for Psionics in Shadowrun. I got Paws2Sky to proof read them and do a reality check on them.

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When the Sixth Age began, there was only one type of metaphysical power and that was Magic. Magic "explained" all of the weird and bizarre happenings that occurred during the Fifth Age. Then in 2064 with the "Crash of '64" metahumanity gained access to a second kind of "metaphysical" power. That was the power of virtuakinesis, or "Technomancy". People who can access the Matrix without using any equipment. Now in the Sixth Age a third kind of metaphysical power has manifested itself. That is the power of the Mind unleashed. It is better known as Psionics. Psionics is the ability to tap into the vast untapped powers of the metahuman mind.

Psions are not as multi-faceted as a Mage though. They have a few abilities and can learn a few more by Transcending (more on the later). A Mage or Shaman on the other hand can learn new spells quite easily and gain metamagic techniques by Initiating. Mages pay a price for their versitility though. They are tied into the Gaia Sphere and if they are ever in an environment where the Mana Field drops below a certain point, then they are just like mundanes. A Psion on the other hand can use his abilities anywhere. It doesn't matter what the Mana Field is like, their abilities just work. The downside of this is that a Psion can not get a boost to their abilities by using Foci, "casting" in a High Mana area, or working their abilities in a Lodge.



Psions group their abilities in what are know as Paths. Each Path is a unique discipline and there is no overlap. The Paths that a Psion can travel are Telepathy, Psychokinesis, Pyrokinesis, and Biomanipulation. These Paths have powers that are similar to Magic, and if someone was not wise to possibility of Psionics then they can be forgiven if they thought a Mage was in the area.

A regular Psion can only use Talents from one Path. A powerful Psion might possibly have Talents from two or more of the Paths. If a Psion is traveling on many Paths he will have a Major Path and Minor Paths. The Major Path is the first Path awakened in the Psion and most of his abilities come from that Path. Minor Paths make up the rest of his abilities and can from any other Path.



Psionic powers are a 5/10 Positive Quality. For five points a Psion can have powers from one Path only. At ten points a Psion can have abilities from multiple Paths. The only limitation is that a Major Path must be selected and it can never change. At this point the Psion choses his abilities. He gains one power for every point in Psi Rating. Psi Rating is purchases exactly like Magic and Resonance. For example, Freddie the Telepath has a Psi of 4, then he can chose 4 powers from Telepathy.

A Psion must have as many abilities from his Major Path as he does from all of his other Paths combines. For example: a Psion has Biomanipulation as his Major Path and a Psi Rating of 5, then 3 of his powers MUST come from the Biomanipulation Path. The other two abilities can come from the other Paths. This is true whenever a Psion increases his Psi Rating (more on this later on) and selects another Psi Power. In the example above, the Biomanipulator Transcends one level and has a Psi of 6 then 3 powers must come from Biomanipulation and 3 can come from the other Paths.

When a Psion uses his abilties, he has to use his Psionic Strength (Psi Rating) and his knowledge in how to use each of his abilties (Psionic Skills), just like a Mage when he casts a spell (but use Psi Rating + Psi Skill instead). Psionic Skills are selected just like any other skills, but each Path requires it's own skill. Knowing how to use your Telepathy does nothing for you when you need to use Magic Fingers. Also, a Psion can not default for a Psionic Skill Test. Either the Psion knows how to use a Psionic ability, or he can't use it at all. Finally these skills are unique to each person so there is no way to encode a Skillsoft with how to use Psionic Skills, though a Psion can tutor another Psion in how to use his ability.

Psions are as affected by augmentation as Magicians and Technomancers. Their bodies require a certain balance and if that balance is thrown too far out of whack, then they will lose their Ability forever. This means that if a Psi loses 5.01 or more points of Essence, then he loses all Psi ability immediately. Transcending will do nothing if the Psion's body is too full of Metal and/or damaged.



Each Path has a power associated with that a Psion gets for free. This power is from the Major Path only (no getting two Free Powers).

Since a great system for balancing out "cool stuff" with what it costs to toss it is already exists in Shadowrun, I'll be using it for Psions. Drain works exactly like it does for a Magician and each power is exactly like the magic spell (except when noted), it's just that it is Psionic energy and not Mana energy that is powering it. A Psion resists drain using Psi Rating + Willpower. This mechanism mimics a Technomancer and their complex forms.

Telepathy: The Telepath gains the automatic ability of Multi-Tasking. Multi-Tasking works exactly like the Physical Adept power of the same name.
Powers:
Mind Bolt: Same as a Stun Bolt
Detect Enemy
Mind Shield: This power gives a Psion two extra dice to resist mental spells/psi powers. It is always on and does not cause Drain. This only affects the Psion himself.
Mind Probe
Mindlink
Analyse Truth
Phantasm
Confusion
Influence


Psychokinesis: A Psychokinetic is more efficient when using Magic Fingers than a non-Psychokinetic and only suffers F/2 Drain for using Magic Fingers.
Powers:
Physical Barrier
Levitate
Magic Fingers: Even though it's called Magic Fingers, it is still Psionic in nature.
Psibolt: This is the same as Powerbolt.
Blast
Lock
Bind
Deflection
Poltergeist

Pyrokinesis: a Pyrokinetic gains Psi Rating + 2 levels of Fire Resistance. This works exactly like the Fire Resistance Armor Upgrade.
Powers:
Fireball
Flamethrower
Ignite
Flame wall
Flame Aura
Alter Temperature: This works by the Pyrokinetic adding or taking away heat.
Thermographic Vision
Shape Fire
Sterilize: This uses a micro amount of fire to achieve its affects.

Biomanipulation: a Biomanipulator gains an extra two dice to any healing and toxin/disease resistance tests he takes. This is automatic as the Psion instinctively focuses his power inward to keep himself healthy.
Powers:
Heal
Cure Disease
Increase Reflexes
Stabilize
Detox
Hibernate
Antidote
Death Touch
Alleviate Addiction




Psions can gain abilities in the same ways that a Mages and Technomancers do. The process is called Transcending. A Psion who undergoes Transcendence achieves a greater understanding of his Psionic potential. Like Technomancers and Mages, when a Psion successfully gets a Grade of Transcendence his natural maximum Psi Rating goes up one point. He also gets the ability to choose either a new power or one of the following Met-Psi powers (called Memes by Psions):

Instinctive Power: The Psion gains the ability to sustain one power (chosen at the time this Meme is selected) without penalty.

Reflexive Power: The Psion has trained so well with a power (chosen at the time this Meme is selected) that he can activate that power as a Free action.


Masking: The Psion can hide his Psionic signature so that a Mage can't Assense his ability. Works like the meta-magic ability.

Centering: This Meta-Psi power works exactly like the meta-magic ability,

Astral Projection: A Psion must have Mind Shield to be able to get this Meme. If he does not then he can't separate his soul from his body. Telepathic abilities work in the Astral Plane, but the others don't.

For a Psion to undergo Transcendence, he has to undergo a process similar to Mages and Technomancers, but with one important distinction: there are no groups for a Psion to join (as of yet, GM's can change this if they want) to make their Transcendence any easier. Also, there are some Ordeals that Psion's obviously can't do (such as summoning spirits)

Wow, that was a underwhelming,
no new hook in the setting, "classic" space-opera adventures (so nothing to gain), will be providing the step system to use with technology instead of Shadowrun.

Yay -
ED will be using 4E D&D
SR is SR4
EQUINOX will be modified ED

Three different systems for the supposed one universe is just wasteful complexity.

Well..I'll reserve judgement on Equinox until I see it.. if it has dragons, elves and all the other races of shadowrun, as well as high tech, cybernetics, magic, technomancers (or a Mix of Technomaners/mages), some form of the matrix, and space ships, I'll give it a go... it might be fun.

So Krule, did you look at the rules I (with the help of Paws2Sky) made?

On the bright side, it finally answers the Humans vs. Horrors debate, ending our annual discussion on the subject. The answer us Humans, but only if they use a Wreck Planet spell on Earth.

The example in the book has an initiate with magic 11 casting on the moon (ruled as -9 void). His effective magic is 2 (11-9=2) and he triest o cast a force 4 (magic x2) phantasm. For drain, he takes Force 4 + Void 9 = Force 13 effective drain from the spell. So instead of taking (4/2)+2 as a force 4 spell, it turns into (13/2)+2 for force 13. Base drain of 8.

No mention is done about the spell being reduced by the void in this example.... but, SM, 118, "Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained
spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similarly affected.
Reduce their Force by the absolute value of the background
count. If the Force is reduced to zero or less, wards and mana
barriers will collapse, foci will deactivate, and spells will
fizzle. The enchantment on a quickened/anchored spell or
ward/mana barrier will repair itself once removed from the
background count, returning to its regular Force."
So, it seems instant spells will still work, but sustained/permanent spells will be reduced by the absolute value of background count immediately after casting. So sustaiend/permanent spells would need to have a force higher than the background count, while instant spells don't (but would suffer the increased drain).


So, you could cast the sustained spells on earth, then head up and keep them sustained in space. While still being able to use powerbolt and the like for defense (though, with hefty drain penalties).

Actually I did, rather interesting, not sure if I'll ever use it, but it does look interesting.

The other thing Equinox seems to cover, is the mana issue, apparently metahumanity managed to figure out the source of the various mana cycles, and more or less make mana a perminant thing, with what I read.

Looks like you have been pretty safe with them and given them heavy restrictions with no story to explain why.
You could be even more extensive as well with psionic "paths" (don't like the name, paths feels magical in nature to me, but then again I like
Trinity terminology for Psi powers). The paths are easy to understand.

Personally I would of though you would start with one "Path" be default, then with "Transcendence" you have the option to add a Path for the level. There would be no minor or major stuff, and learning techniques in a path would be no different to learning spells. (eg. the actual power comings from the Path, not it's application)

Other psionic paths could be clairsentience based around diving, clairvoyance, precognition and psychometry.

But it feels like you have just written a highly restrictive Mystic Adept that can ignore Background.

As far as the magic on stations and such in space... I think that's because the stations aren't pure mana voids (rating -12). In fact, maybe due to perverse logic... using stuff like FAB to build the walls and heavy use of hydroponics and similar biological based technology actually enhances the mana, bringing the station down to moon levels or better (IMO: -6 is the grail... still bad enough... but not so bad that the -7 or worse penalties kick in).


Frankly I see nothing new here... it's the same thing which ALWAYS happens.

Psionics isn't magic... despite the fact that it does the exact same thing! (down to using the exact same spells and effects or simply renaming them). Then comes the handwavium. Since it isn't magic it avoids magics pitfalls so suck it mages/adepts/whatever. Shadowrun goes out of it's way to allow for MANY different schools of magic and each is allowed their own 'rationale' and is allowed to either 'gimp' itself unnecessarily or not. There is no good reason for psionics to be any different, they can think it's their own mental will all they want... after a certain point magic is magic is magic is magic is any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. (wait how'd that technomancer bit get in there...).

OK explain why the mana levels rise and fall. How did the technomancers come about? Why do nuclear weapons sometimes work and sometimes don't. The answer to all these questions is ???.

The writers don't go into it because it allows people to shoot holes in their carefully laid out material. I did the same thing. I left the question to the origin of Psions to the individual GM's. Also the name "Path" I don't see that as restricted to just magic at all. ANY power can be seen as a Path to understanding.



I was trying to replicate what I have seen written for Psionics in other materials. Most Psis would have powers from more that one Path... and that's beginning Psions. The most common is Telepathy and Telekinesis.



Except I didn't want to have "Magic, but better". Sure you have abilities that can replicate Magic, but with it's limited, just like in the fiction surrounding Psionics. The Telekinetic might have Telepathy, might be able to heal, or might be to control fire, but rarely can he do all of them. Yes with my idea it's possible to get powers from all the paths, but you will only have a few powers and I made sure that the major Path would be defining for a Psion character.



How would you model this based on 4th edition rules? I wanted to keep things simple because the more you screw with something, the harder it becomes to keep it balanced.



Yes I did. In fact that is what I based this on. The only difference is that there are no Phys Ad powers to add on top of this. The Player is going to need a careful hand in creating a Psion character. I think the idea that you can use your powers anywhere might balance it out though.

Cannon does not to rationalise though.
To be completely honest, I might be a bit biased on asking for a rationalisation since I do not know your goals for the rules and how you want it to contribute to the setting.



That is fine, I just does not work for me, that is all.



I just personally find it clunky and feels like an early WOD abstraction or 3E D&D Psionics. I just favour a more freeform intepretation for Psionic powers, but once again, bias. I have a lot of experience with Trinitys Psi rules and the freeform Psi rules that were published.

I see psionic powers like "magic fingers" under telekinesis to be more like a "psionic maneuver" that is an application of their base psychokinetic power.



But I see nothing wrong with the current interpretation that "psionics" is just a delusional tradition.
Now if I knew what your goal was with the rules, I would be better prepared to work out potential solutions.

What do you want your Psionics rules to achieve?
What version of Psionics is your inspiration (specifically, it will let us know where you are coming from)?
eg. It is Milieu Psionics by Julian May, Lensman series, Deryni saga, Starwars, Akira, Marvel comics, 3rd Ed. D&D, etc...

I wanted a set of rules so that someone could play a "mage like" character ANYWHERE in the Shadowrun universe. Deep Space, Mana Warp and Mana Dead zones. I also wanted a character archtype that was not "all powerful" as mages are in Shadowrun. Honestly, if a Mage sets his mind to it, he can frag you from a distance and you would never know what hit you. With Psionics, you can have a person who has paranormal abilities, but doesn't "break" the game.



Part of my inspiration for Psionics is Joan Vinge's Catspaw, and Anne McCaffrey's Talents (minus the teleportation stuff) Universe. Mix in a tiny bit of Star Wars for the flashy stuff, set on puree and enjoy.