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Trebor
Ok, it's been about 10 years since I ran shadowrun. i have finally convinced my players to try it (after many arguments about why it is better than cyberpunk). i have picked up the 4th ed books (except street magic which i get later this week and the companion that isn't out in the uk yet as far as i can tell) and have a couple of questions.

First, how do you snake past a bound spirit guarding an area. they can move really quickly and cover a whole facility effectively. They can see you astrally and so trying to stealth or use invisibility won't work. How do you sneak past them or are the infallible?

Second, and as far as i can see this is a big bone of contention, mana spells. A mana spell only uses will to resist so deals massive amounts of damage to almost anyone who is not a magic user. Is this right? Seems somewhat over powered to me, surely is that's the case they should have much lower damage values?

Anything else i should what out for? i'm having some trouble with navigating the new matrix and coming up with networks (mostly ones not connected to the matrix as a whole). Does it basically run like 2nd and 3rd ed matrix, but wirelessly, obviously?

Thanks for any help you can give.
Ol' Scratch
1. Sneaking around on the astral plane works nearly as well as it doesn on the physical plane. Many of the same things cast shadows and the like. There''s a few different modifiers, but all in all it works the same. The big obstacle for non-magicians is not being able to see the spirit (if it's purely astral), and I'm not sure if there's even a modifier for that.

2. Nope, because not every target is a street samurai with maxed out Body. Lots of characters have higher Willpower scores than Body scores, including technomancers and hackers. Pretty much anyone who doesn't have magical support is screwed when defending against magic as you all but need counterspelling dice to successfully defend against it, Physical or Mana.

3. I've read over the Matrix rules multiple times. I just can't wrap my head around it successfully. I'm not sure why, but it's way convoluted in SR4. It was bad in SR3, too, but yeesh. It seems they chose to ignore how abstract the entire system is and instead use completely different phrases and rules for similar activities simply for the sake of being more realistic. "OMFG, look, we have botnets! Our rules are so realistic because we call them botnets!" Blah.
BRodda
QUOTE (Trebor @ Sep 16 2008, 02:21 PM) *
Ok, it's been about 10 years since I ran shadowrun. i have finally convinced my players to try it (after many arguments about why it is better than cyberpunk). i have picked up the 4th ed books (except street magic which i get later this week and the companion that isn't out in the uk yet as far as i can tell) and have a couple of questions.

First, how do you snake past a bound spirit guarding an area. they can move really quickly and cover a whole facility effectively. They can see you astrally and so trying to stealth or use invisibility won't work. How do you sneak past them or are the infallible?

Second, and as far as i can see this is a big bone of contention, mana spells. A mana spell only uses will to resist so deals massive amounts of damage to almost anyone who is not a magic user. Is this right? Seems somewhat over powered to me, surely is that's the case they should have much lower damage values?

Anything else i should what out for? i'm having some trouble with navigating the new matrix and coming up with networks (mostly ones not connected to the matrix as a whole). Does it basically run like 2nd and 3rd ed matrix, but wirelessly, obviously?

Thanks for any help you can give.


1) Spirits are not all seeing and still have to make the required perception tests to see you if you are sneaking either magically or mundanely. High force spirits will probably be able to see you easily, but low force spirits can be snuck by just as easily as most security guards. A failed perception check is a failed perception check.

2) Will is not just for magic users anymore as it is what stun based damage is resisted with now. That means if you can take them out with a manaball your street sam can probably knock them out just as easy with a stun glove.

As for the Matrix, it runs very little like 2nd and 3rd. For one thing you no longer have to hack your way all the way into a system to do something; generally speaking if you can see it you can hack it. It has a lot more everyday uses. As for running inside a corp. building, it does play a bit the same, but your hacker will be with the rest of the team and the cybercombat is a hell of a lot faster.
Jaid
1) stealth works against astral perception.

2) (direct combat) spells are generally resisted with stat + counterspelling (from a nearby magician/critter with magic guard, if any). the exception is indirect spells, which are opposed by reaction only. and yes, as a matter of fact, this is indeed very bad news for a group of unsupported people. they will likely die horribly.
Rasumichin
As far as the mana spells are concerned, they don't do squat against drones.
Even most direct physical combat spells will have trouble doing considerable damage to a drone and the indirect ones can be dodged, have to deal with armor and cause a hell of a lot of drain.
Drones are bad news for any mage.

Also, keep in mind that vision modifiers apply to spellcasting and that you have to see someone to cast a stunbolt on them.
You can shoot through cover, but you can't blast mana through it to hit what's on the other side.
Avoid clustering guards together so they can be conveniently manaballed, let them search cover, let them use combined IR-smoke and Petit Brume grenades with ultrasound goggles.


Then there's stuff like background count, counterspelling (security mages with the shielding and absorbing or mirroring metatechniques can be fun...for the GM devil.gif ), Willpower-boosting combat drugs, qualities like Arcane Arrester or Astral Hazing, critters/spirits with Magical Guard...
TKDNinjaInBlack
For those players who talk about how overpowered magic is and how exposed they are to it by merely resisting with only body or only willpower, remind them that they can take the quality of magic resistance. If they don't like the idea of having only a few dice, for every level with that quality they get another die to resist all (even good) magic.

Also remind them of this. When someone shoots at you with a gun, you only get reaction to try and dodge the bullet, so only using body or willpower isn't that much worse. What's worse is the damage resistance...
Stahlseele
arcane arrster, astral hazing, if it fits spell resistance and astral chameleon.
you're now basically immune to magics
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 16 2008, 09:04 PM) *
arcane arrster, astral hazing, if it fits spell resistance and astral chameleon.
you're now basically immune to magics


You can't combine Magic Resistance with Arcane Arrester.
Stahlseele
must have overread that . . would be kinda silly though, as you can even combine astral arrester with being magically active somehow . .
Apathy
It's true that magicians are pretty powerful right out of the gate in SR. A couple things to consider, though.
  • Background count is not that unusual, and is really nasty. It reduces the magic level of the mage, the force of his spirits and spells, but keeps his drain high.
  • Manatech can help security lessen the mage's ability by stacking on more background count, etc. There's a lilly in Street Magic that can add a point or two of local BC and could fit in a large planter. I imagine these might be liberally spread around in secure areas.
  • All spells create an astral signature. The lower force ones disipate pretty quickly, but a high force spell can last for hours, allowing forensic mages to identify them.
  • Wards are everywhere. They're cheap and easy to maintain in SR4. Although they won't act well as a barrier, they do great as alarms. It's not unreasonable to expect them at chokepoints in hallways, etc. and if a mage wanders through a ward while he's wearing an active focus or bringing along a spirit, he's just alerted security. If the mage is looking out for wards, he can turn off his focuses and dismiss his spirits. But in doing so he loses a service from the spirits, and has to soak drain again on the spells. If you're stealthing through two or three wards on your way to the center of the building, you'll end up losing spirits and wounding yourself with drain before you even get there.
  • Unlike grenades, with direct damage spells (mana bolt, power ball, stun ball, etc) you can't hit what you can't see. If guard hides behind a 1/16th inch sheet of cardboard he can't be targeted with a direct spell. The indirect spells can still get him, but they're hell on drain. Anything that obstructs visibility will put negative modifiers on a spell, smoke, partial cover, glare, etc. Smoke and partial cover also work against targeting via astral perception.
  • Like grenades, area effect spells will kill friendlies just as easily as enemies. The blast radius on high force spells is HUGE. Be sure to check the positioning of both friendlies and enemies when calculating damage from that overcasted manaball. The mage is going to feel pretty stupid if he wipes out half the team (and maybe even himself) by overcasting a manaball at a target 10 feet away...
  • Low-cost counter to invisibility include dogs. Their primary sense (smell) is completely unaffected by the spell. Also watchers are cheap detectors.
  • Higher-cost counters include para-critters, and tech sensors like pressure plates and systems that won't open doors unless the camera sees someone standing there.
  • Drones are the bane of a mage's existance. Their high OR makes them tough to affect, and since their not alive they can't be damaged with mana spells. They also don't have a stun track. And they're dirt cheap in SR4, so you can throw swarms of them at the PCs.

The thing is, the goal is not [usually] to kill everyone and steal the McGuffin. Generally the PCs outclass the guards and ANY of them could do that. The goal is usually to get the McGuffin and get out without having to kill the guards and alert the security response team. The guard is not there to fight the PCs; he's there to notify Security Central that there are bad guys afoot (usually when his biomonitor signals that he just went flatline...)

[Edited to correct the Astral Signature bullet I mixed up my terms on. Thanks Jaid for pointing out.]
Jaid
quick note, spells do not create background count (i assume apathy meant astral signature... perhaps he noticed and just didn't care enough to fix it wink.gif )
Glyph
Also, even a background count of 1 is not something you should be running into everywhere - it should be something that occasionally pops up to complicate life for an awakened character, but beware of overusing it.

On wards, though, I agree that they are fairly cheap and common. And most installations will have some magical countermeasures - magic has been around for decades in SR4.

The two biggies to remember about mana spells is that visual modifiers reduce spellcasting dice, and that the hits, not net hits but hits, period - are limited to the Force of the spell.
Cain
The one thing to remember about combat spells is that Counterspelling Is Your Friend. If you intend to go up against magical opposition, you need a mage on hand with counterspelling.
Rasumichin
And one more thing to remember about indirect combat spells : if the target scores more hits than you, they just fizzle, but still cause you drain.
Cain
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Sep 17 2008, 11:06 AM) *
And one more thing to remember about indirect combat spells : if the target scores more hits than you, they just fizzle, but still cause you drain.

Don't you mean direct combat spells? And I thought the indirect ones still went off, even if they roll well on their Reaction test.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 17 2008, 07:30 PM) *
Don't you mean direct combat spells? And I thought the indirect ones still went off, even if they roll well on their Reaction test.


Yes, of course...i mix them up sometimes.
But i meant the stuff like Stunbolt, Energy Ball and so on, not the elemental ones.
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