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Marduc
Heavy mil-spec armor doesn't allow other armor with it and thus has an armor value of 16/14, non inprovable. For a price and an availability of 20000 nuyen.gif and 20F.

But using formfitting armor and the securiguard PPP system, wearing an armored jacked, one can get an armor rating of 17/14 for 3600 nuyen.gif and an availability of 8
venenum
I would think you could add the PPP system. As it can be obvious additions to the outside of armor. Additionally you could get another point on each side with the addition of Gel Packs. Plus don't forget the additions that the extra capacity gives you.
Mx
QUOTE (Marduc @ Sep 17 2008, 11:13 PM) *
Heavy mil-spec armor doesn't allow other armor with it and thus has an armor value of 16/14, non inprovable. For a price and an availability of 20000 nuyen.gif and 20F.

But using formfitting armor and the securiguard PPP system, wearing an armored jacked, one can get an armor rating of 17/14 for 3600 nuyen.gif and an availability of 8

Well you don't need an inhumanly hight Body to wear the mil-spec armor with out penaltie
Eryk the Red
If my last campaign had gone on longer, the bigass troll of the group would have had heavy milspec armor with Strength enhancements for bonus punching power (or whatever else he wanted to do with his already beefy muscles). The capacity is a major benefit.
WeaverMount
If you remember to add in the helmet the armor value is 18/16. Then there is modding. Heavy mil-spec has enough armor rating coming from 1 piece it can actually take every listed basic armor mod. Then it can also take the mil-spec mods like an internal gyro mount, a way to exceed aug-max strength (for recoil comp, extra scary bows, and melee), and finally the ability to wear 18 armor unencumbered without a body of 6-9 ( versus 7 for the FFA+PPP+Jacket)
Mx
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Sep 17 2008, 11:30 PM) *
If you remember to add in the helmet the armor value is 18/16. Then there is modding. Heavy mil-spec has enough armor rating coming from 1 piece it can actually take every listed basic armor mod. Then it can also take the mil-spec mods like an internal gyro mount, a way to exceed aug-max strength (for recoil comp, extra scary bows, and melee), and finally the ability to wear 18 armor unencumbered with a body of 6-9

With mobility ugrade a body of 5 is enought and with out the helmet a body of 4.
WeaverMount
QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 17 2008, 03:34 PM) *
With mobility ugrade a body of 5 is enought and with out the helmet a body of 4.


I forgot to put the 'out' in 'without'. I changed it.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Sep 17 2008, 01:30 PM) *
If you remember to add in the helmet the armor value is 18/16. Then there is modding. Heavy mil-spec has enough armor rating coming from 1 piece it can actually take every listed basic armor mod. Then it can also take the mil-spec mods like an internal gyro mount, a way to exceed aug-max strength (for recoil comp, extra scary bows, and melee), and finally the ability to wear 18 armor unencumbered without a body of 6-9 ( versus 7 for the FFA+PPP+Jacket)


Armor Suits use Capacity, not the Maximum Armor Modifications. So, while you can fit all rating 6 basic modifications on it, it takes up 12 of your 20 capacity (16 if you include Radiation Shielding).

Still, that is a lot of modifications you can tack on it.

Also, although I doubt it is intended as such, I can easily argue that PPP can be worn with Milspec - you cannot wear any other armor with Milspec, but PPP is not considered other armor, rather additions to the armor, same as the helmets.

Oh, and with Mobility Upgrade 3, you can run with Heavy Milspec + Helmet with a Body of 4, unencumbered.
Mx
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 17 2008, 11:55 PM) *
Oh, and with Mobility Upgrade 3, you can run with Heavy Milspec + Helmet with a Body of 4, unencumbered.

Damn you're right, i miscalculated when i said a body of 5 is needed. sleepy.gif
WeaverMount
Ah good ketch. 20 is still more than 12.


This also raise another question I've been meaning to bring up: How does helmet capacity fit it. Do helmets automatically get all mods made to the suit? If that is the case a helmet is basically 5 extra capacity to chalk full of goodies. If not, then you can really only take one or two mods on your helmet.
Tarantula
Military helmets have capacity to be upgraded with vision/audio/sensor upgrades for capacity cost as it says in the description.
Muspellsheimr
They have retardedly low Capacity for that, though. You can fit almost nothing into 5 Capacity, considering rating 3 Vision Enhancement alone takes up more than half.
Tarantula
Keep in mind they already come with a wireless commlink, camera, flare comp, image link, and smartlink.
Alieth
Why couldn't you wear a formfitting body suit underneath the hvy milspec armor? It's only about an inch thick, it's basically a second skin.

On the PPP, it can be attached to any other armor. It isn't armor in and of its self, it is additional armor.

I have a guy running a character right now who wears hvy milspec. He's got something like 25\18 armor, or something. Its crazy.
Muspellsheimr
Keep in mind that cyber eyes/ears have a combined total Capacity of 32; the helmet upgrades both audio & video. Also keep in mind that Contact Lenses & Earbuds have no Capacity limit (which is retarded, but RAW).

A armor suit helmet should have the same Capacity available as the armor it is being fitted for.
Oenone
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Sep 17 2008, 10:56 PM) *
This also raise another question I've been meaning to bring up: How does helmet capacity fit it. Do helmets automatically get all mods made to the suit? If that is the case a helmet is basically 5 extra capacity to chalk full of goodies. If not, then you can really only take one or two mods on your helmet.


I was under the impression the helmet capacity was for fancy electronics, rather than sticking on things like non-conductive.

But as they're part of the same suit if you make the body non-conductive then a head shot would still have the same resist score. Or else say a chemical seal would protect your entire body except for your head.....
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Alieth @ Sep 17 2008, 03:14 PM) *
Why couldn't you wear a formfitting body suit underneath the hvy milspec armor? It's only about an inch thick, it's basically a second skin.

On the PPP, it can be attached to any other armor. It isn't armor in and of its self, it is additional armor.

1: Because Milspec armor specifically forbids it from being worn with any other armor.
2: As I said above, this can be debated, but it is generally agreed that PPP is considered armor, and thus cannot be worn with Milspec.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 17 2008, 10:55 PM) *
Armor Suits use Capacity, not the Maximum Armor Modifications. So, while you can fit all rating 6 basic modifications on it, it takes up 12 of your 20 capacity (16 if you include Radiation Shielding).

Still, that is a lot of modifications you can tack on it.

And of course, all that is an optional rule - by default, you can stuff whatever you like into armor.
Oenone
One of the main points in favor of milspec armour is you can give it the Ruthenium Polymer Coating. Which is expensive (and better on the lighter armour) but ain't something you can just spray on your lined coat.
WeaverMount
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 17 2008, 05:18 PM) *
And of course, all that is an optional rule - by default, you can stuff whatever you like into armor.



Yes you are totally right. I think it's a poor choice though to have RAW mods and RAW capacity, but not a RAW rule saying that mods take capacity. IMO it would feel like a house rule to do anything else but run the printed optional rule
the_real_elwood
Who wouldn't use milspec armor, given the opportunity? Not only does it have a lot of protection, but then there's all the enhancements available only to it and not normal armor. Plus, hardened armor is always nice too.

And with respect to FFBA and the PPP system, although my interpretation of the RAW seems to preclude both being worn with milspec armor, if it were up to me, I'd say that you could use FFBA but not the PPP system with milspec armor, though the case could be made for both to be able to be used with milspec armor. It really depends on the leniency of the GM.
Ol' Scratch
As others have basically sad, albeit not in so many words, it's essentially cyberlimbs that cost 0 Essence. It's one of the only ways for an unaugmented character to reliably and safely boost their Strength, for instance.

The real problem, in my opinion, is the weird-ass way they handle armor in SR4. Everything that can stack -- and there's way too much that can -- adds it's full value to the total of your armor, and most of those options are cheap and easy to get. Just as a quick example, an adept with Body 5, two cyberlimbs and Mystic Armor 4 can have Ballistic 21 and Impact 18 ratings with the Steampunk armor set and full Form-Fitting Body Armor alone, which has 19 or 20 points worth of modification available as well. Even without the Mystic Armor (ie, anyone with Body 5 and only two limbs) he's still at 17/14. All within the realm of character creation, too. If you ignore the Availability limits (which you all but have to for Heavy Milspec armor) it jumps to 25/22 or 21/18 respectively just by maxing out the armor in the two limbs.

Thus it's not that Milspec armor sucks, it's the rules for stacking that do.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Sep 17 2008, 04:13 PM) *
Plus, hardened armor is always nice too.

You are saying Milspec is Hardened? Where the fuck did you get that from?
Wasabi
Because the Military Armor uses Body*3 for max armor before penalties and the Mobility upgrade further reduces penalties my Body4 Missions character has a suit. Its expensive but the only way to tank with a low Body character.

Trolls should use PPP+Form Fitting+Swat Armor or something like that so they get maximum armorage.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Oenone @ Sep 17 2008, 05:21 PM) *
One of the main points in favor of milspec armour is you can give it the Ruthenium Polymer Coating. Which is expensive (and better on the lighter armour) but ain't something you can just spray on your lined coat.


An EVO H.E.L. Suit is a lot less money, as easy to mod with Ruthenium, and a lot more legal. smile.gif
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 17 2008, 06:35 PM) *
You are saying Milspec is Hardened? Where the fuck did you get that from?

Ah, my bad. Hardened armor was from SR3. With hardened armor, any attack with a power less than the value of the hardened armor was ignored, which was a nice benefit over regular armor, especially with the high armor value of the heavy mil-spec armor.
psychophipps
Not anyone in my games, that's for sure. Hell, we don't even let the military get mil-spec armor in our game...
Yoan
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 17 2008, 07:30 PM) *
Not anyone in my games, that's for sure. Hell, we don't even let the military get mil-spec armor in our game...


Thank you. Just thank you. This thread made me queasy til reading that.
Sir_Psycho
Wait. Why should't the military be able to get military armour? It seems reasonable that for high-priority troops that need to go under a lot of fire or into a high danger zone, it'd be one of the perks of the job. If you're a Firewatch operative and they're sending you into a hive, you'd better hope you'd be in a hard suit. Most of my military teams I give a partial form fit shirt and a camouflage suit. Maybe throw in some PPP if they have the body for it.

Also, I don't have my books on me to check, but how does anyone with a body of less than 8 wear Military Armour without penalty? I'm damn sure most soldiers don't have Body ratings of 8. In fact, a human would need exceptional attribute and genetic optimisation and spend a truckload of BP. Most Orks don't even have a bod of 8. What's the story?

Also, it's ridiculous to give some-one in hardened military armour the PPP system. "Vitals" protector? It's hard armour. It has a vitals protectors in it. Leg and arm casings? Again, the armour is a full body casing. Really 16/14 (Not factoring in helmets and gel packs) is quite good. I would also argue you can't use form fit with it because they're probably already fitting on the inside, probably with a soft armour lining, much like form fit.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Sep 17 2008, 10:54 PM) *
Also, I don't have my books on me to check, but how does anyone with a body of less than 8 wear Military Armour without penalty? I'm damn sure most soldiers don't have Body ratings of 8. In fact, a human would need exceptional attribute and genetic optimisation and spend a truckload of BP. Most Orks don't even have a bod of 8. What's the story?

That's what the Mobility upgrade is for. Basically, it turns the armor into powered armor.
Jaid
for the helmet capacity, i would note that you can arguably upgrade the sensors within it (presumably) without using up any capacity. so for example, you could add all kinds of vision mods to the camera, and it's still just a camera (ie it would follow the rules for sensor arrays rather than the rules for cybereyes/ears). likewise, if you add a mic, you can add all kinds of features to the mic and it's just 1 mod requiring 1 capacity.
Cadmus
Modding a set of swat armor is good too, get the cham coating, ppp,gelpacks ect. then mod the helmet with sensors.

Granted these are easyer to do in RAW style games smile.gif
the_real_elwood
With the military armor, isn't the limit Body*3 for the maximum armor value before you start taking a penalty? Then you need a body of 6 before you start worrying about hitting a penalty. Plus, there's always the mobility upgrade as mentioned before.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Sep 17 2008, 09:54 PM) *
Also, I don't have my books on me to check, but how does anyone with a body of less than 8 wear Military Armour without penalty? I'm damn sure most soldiers don't have Body ratings of 8. In fact, a human would need exceptional attribute and genetic optimisation and spend a truckload of BP. Most Orks don't even have a bod of 8. What's the story?

QUOTE (Arsenal p.50)
Each suit must be custom-fit to an individual, tailored to her specific body contours and range of motion. This decreases the armor's encumbrance (see p.148, SR4); the character wearing the armor is only encumbered if either armor rating exceeds the character's Body x 3.

Body 6 can wear Heavy Military + Helmet unencumbered.
QUOTE (Arsenal p.51)
Mobility Upgrade: By integrating additional servo-motors, improved joints, and similar enhancements, the armor's mobility is increased to allow users that are not as strong and well trained to wear it without being slowed down to much. This enhancement reduces the encumbrance modifiers to Agility and Reaction due to the worn armor (see Armor and Encumbrance, p.149, SR4) by its rating, and also adds a dice pool modifier equal ti its rating to all Running Tests.

Body 4 = 12 Armor unencumbered. 18 - 12 = 6 = -3 Reaction/Agility. Rating 3 Mobility Upgrade + Body 4 = Heavy Military Armor + Helmet with no penalty.

Side note: I never before noticed that Mobility Upgrade also boosts your Running...
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Sep 17 2008, 09:54 PM) *
Also, it's ridiculous to give some-one in hardened military armour the PPP system. "Vitals" protector? It's hard armour. It has a vitals protectors in it. Leg and arm casings? Again, the armour is a full body casing. Really 16/14 (Not factoring in helmets and gel packs) is quite good. I would also argue you can't use form fit with it because they're probably already fitting on the inside, probably with a soft armour lining, much like form fit.

Military armor is not hardened. How does tacking on another quarter-inch of armored material not make it more effective? 16/14 (+2/2) is quite good, but when you take into account that if you use SWAT armor instead (12/10, +2/2), you can achieve an armor value of 22/20. Sure, it is more cumbersome, & you loose out on some nice modifications, but seriously, Heavy Military Armor should not be outdone by Law Enforcement.


If I where ever to run a game (co-GM is possible, GM - no fucking way), FFBA would not exist, & SecureTech PPP would be compatible with Military Armor.
Fuchs
Banning FFBA (or armor stacking) takes care of those problems.
Rotbart van Dainig
As does allowing armor stacking for everything.

Twice the count of kevlar sheets is twice as good, plain and simple.
Wearing an armored jacket over an armored vest will make you less likely to get a bullet through your chest.

QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Sep 18 2008, 12:34 AM) *
Yes you are totally right. I think it's a poor choice though to have RAW mods and RAW capacity, but not a RAW rule saying that mods take capacity. IMO it would feel like a house rule to do anything else but run the printed optional rule

Actually, the capacity values are completly fubar once it comes to integrated stuff.
Skinlink taking capacity at all? Enough capacity to fit in a whole point of strenght enhancement? Suuure.
And of course, normal armor per main book never had those limits.

Personally, I think the main book has some very poor choices:
First, banning layering completly was silly.
Second, allowing unlimited upgrades was not much better.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Sep 17 2008, 09:54 PM) *
Wait. Why shouldn't the military be able to get military armour? It seems reasonable that for high-priority troops that need to go under a lot of fire or into a high danger zone, it'd be one of the perks of the job. If you're a Firewatch operative and they're sending you into a hive, you'd better hope you'd be in a hard suit. Most of my military teams I give a partial form fit shirt and a camouflage suit. Maybe throw in some PPP if they have the body for it.


Because nobody spends 12,000-20,000 nuyen.gif before the helmet on bitchass troops of any color, designation, or status?

Besides, you don't blow a crack bunch of spec op asskickers like Firewatch on something a phenomenally stupid as a gawdam bug hunt, fer chrisakes. That's what grunts are for! ohplease.gif

Give them a good armor vest, a decent helmet, and they'll be good to go.

You start setting the troops up with some helli-heavy, mobility-enhanced double-dong system that can fail (and thus, will at the worst possible moment) and you'll have a large series of too heavy to move effectively (or at all) lumps with phenomenal protection just waiting for the enemy to waltz up with a HMG to "take care o' biz". Please also note how the entire "Future Warrior" project currently under development by the US Army is going towards lighter armor and weapons, not heavier.

The mil-spec armor in Arsenal and it's ilk are a direct example of fan geek game writing, sorry.
Steampunk
For a "normal" Soldier the army pays at least 2000¥ per Month (making 24.000¥ per year) for the soldier (and that's the absolute minimum, NOT included what it costs to train and maintain him).
They won't probably buy every soldier a MilSpec armor, but as you can probably think, training and mainting an elite soldier is MUCH more expensive, so the costs for such an armor seem suddenly much more affordable, if you want to keep the elite soldier a little longer... And of course, such an elite soldier probably has a body of 5, allowing him to use a light milspec armor without any penalities... Of course, such soldiers probably will also be equipped with bioware - or just be orcs, allowing them to run around in heavy milspec without slowing down... smile.gif
Mx
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 06:04 PM) *
Besides, you don't blow a crack bunch of spec op asskickers like Firewatch on something a phenomenally stupid as a gawdam bug hunt, fer chrisakes. That's what grunts are for! ohplease.gif

Oh yeah i ques that's the reason they're the most famous bughunter on the planet.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Steampunk @ Sep 18 2008, 07:20 AM) *
For a "normal" Soldier the army pays at least 2000¥ per Month (making 24.000¥ per year) for the soldier (and that's the absolute minimum, NOT included what it costs to train and maintain him).
They won't probably buy every soldier a MilSpec armor, but as you can probably think, training and maintaining an elite soldier is MUCH more expensive, so the costs for such an armor seem suddenly much more affordable, if you want to keep the elite soldier a little longer... And of course, such an elite soldier probably has a body of 5, allowing him to use a light milspec armor without any penalties... Of course, such soldiers probably will also be equipped with bioware - or just be orcs, allowing them to run around in heavy milspec without slowing down... smile.gif


So now comes the question, "Do you really want me to get technical in my reasoning?" Because I can go on and on about this for quite a while if you're just gonna cut me loose here. wink.gif
Sir_Psycho
Right. Well that's a fine opinion you have their. But don't apolagize to me, because it is clearly just your opinion.

Firewatch kill bugs. They're probably the best at it in the sixth world. They were the ones who planted the sub-tactical nuke in the chicago hive on Cermak. They were the ones who were moving around america, on gawdam bug hunts. They wrote the goddamn book.

And if you do have a crack bunch of spec ops asskickers that you spent huge amounts of money training and filling with expensive ware, 20k is not that much. And if they're so great, they won't be bogged down, because they'll have high body attributes and if not, they'll have the mobility upgrade, so there's no way these guys, with their gear and training, are going to let themselves stand in front of a HMG. If they're trained and mobile, and being sent into dangerous high-priority combat environments, you're going to want them to be able to complete objectives without being eaten by small arms fire.
hobgoblin
your avarage grunt with a rifle and orders to guard the gate, nah. but the people thats storming that rebel/terrorist urban stronghold, damn sure!

the armor will be issued as needed, when needed wink.gif
the_real_elwood
Heavy milspec armor clearly isn't something that all soldiers will have, but certainly the more elite soldiers will have access to it should the mission require it. If the soldiers are supposed to be crawling through air ducts or sneaking around somewhere, they probably won't be using the heavy milspec armor, but if they have to assault a fortified emplacement, I'd be willing to bet that they'd use it. And with soldiers, the biggest cost is in the training they get, not the equipment they use, so spending the extra money for a suit of heavy milspec armor to keep your investment alive isn't a big deal.

And with respect to the PPP system over milspec armor, sure in real life it would work. Making the armor thicker increases its protection. The problem is, the system has to attempt to balance the protection from armor versus the power of attacks, for game balance issues. So disallowing PPP over milspec armor has nothing to do with the reality of the physics of armor and everything to do with game balance and not creating walking indestructible tanks.
Ryu
Military Armor can not be combined with any other form of armor. It is also a personalised for the individual user, so it can´t be shared. Or easily taken.
Steampunk
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 05:24 PM) *
So now comes the question, "Do you really want me to get technical in my reasoning?" Because I can go on and on about this for quite a while if you're just gonna cut me loose here. wink.gif


Personally, I don't care how often you can repeat your opinion, but if you have to say something based on facts, I'm always interessted...
WeaverMount
Mil-spec armor is crazy expensive for body armor. It isn't actually all that expensive compared to a vehicle. With the mobility upgrade and a gyro mount you have an asset with the fire power and durability of light vehicle. While this 'vehicle' doesn't have the raw speed of a jeep, it does has all the flexibility of a foot soldier. It can go inside builds, recover people, climb over or remove many obstacles etc.
ElFenrir
One thing about mil-spec body armor. You can adjust it to add Strength. Can this go past the augmented max of a race? I mean...it's not *you* that's getting Augmented. It's the armor. A Human dude with 5(9) strength, wearing +3 Armor...couldn't he essentially have a 12 in the armor? It kinda makes sense.
Ryu
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Sep 18 2008, 06:47 PM) *
One thing about mil-spec body armor. You can adjust it to add Strength. Can this go past the augmented max of a race? I mean...it's not *you* that's getting Augmented. It's the armor. A Human dude with 5(9) strength, wearing +3 Armor...couldn't he essentially have a 12 in the armor? It kinda makes sense.


Possible. Restricted Gear (Oyoroi Armor) can be pretty cool, if your group can stomach the armor rating. And there are other ways to get into those regions anyway.
WeaverMount
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Sep 18 2008, 11:47 AM) *
One thing about mil-spec body armor. You can adjust it to add Strength. Can this go past the augmented max of a race? I mean...it's not *you* that's getting Augmented. It's the armor. A Human dude with 5(9) strength, wearing +3 Armor...couldn't he essentially have a 12 in the armor? It kinda makes sense.


It explicitly says you can exceed aug-max strength exactly the way you are saying
ElFenrir
Ahh, nice. smile.gif Yeah, I guess it makes sense in the way that however the strength is augmented(hydraulics, etc?), it really doesn't matter how strong the person is on the inside. I'm a complete and total wimp and I can crush something in a vise with little difficulty that without it, I couldn't even scratch it. But good to know, in any case. Hmm...my gears are turning now....
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