The core problem might not even be the unkillable part. In 4th ed, you can pretty much bring back any NPC you want by creating a prime runner and burning a point of edge if the PCs manage to kill her.

In 3rd, a GM once threw up the following run in our group: Our team got to the place where we were to meet Mr. Johnson. Suddenly all the windows and doors to the room went shut and nerve gas was pumped in. Ignoring air filters, gas masks and internal air tanks, all PCs went unconscious.
When they woke up, they all had armbands on and Mr. Johnson sat in the room explaining that if the characters didn't bring him a McGuffin within 24 hours, poison would be released through the armbands, killing the PCs. Any tampering with the bands would result in the poison going off and it would be into our system too fast for us to cut of our arms (Johnson told after I suggested it OOC).
So we went through a onedimensional shoot stuff, take McGuffin, return run and after Johnson made sure we hadn't tampered with it, sent us to sleep with nerve gas again and when we woke up, the armbands were gone.
My character, furious with rage, went through all his contacts immediately and looked for any traces but got nothing and the GM informed us players that there was no chance of finding this guy again.

At no point was this guy unkillable, we even had our weapons still on us when we woke up and met him, but we were completely powerless against him and just got the choice: "Do what I say or you'll die! No way out!" which the GM made clear. And THAT'S what made it so annoying.
You get the freedom that makes up an RPG taken away from you because the GM is just too lazy to give in to it or because you are not to meddle in the adventure's NPC Mary Sue plotline wankfest as is the case with Harlequin.

I say ok, make Harlequin immortal, but don't take away all ways for the players to foil his schemes. Make him scoot away in a jet he hid around the corner or a submarine he parked in the sewer, yelling "I'm gonna get you next time, Inspector Gadget!" it's the "Do as you're told or die!" part that ruins the whole fun.

My useless 2 cents.

Megacorps and such are all powerful, sure. A couple of them don't have their fingers in every pie of the world. There are a ton of them run by strong willed (meta)humans. I am proud to say that not all of them are run by a GD/IE because i prefer to think our race as able to do great things. I hate it when crackpots say pyramids were made by aliens because humans are too stupid. How much can you hate yourself to think that.

On megacorps in runners, yes runners slip under the radar alot because they are small compared to CEOs, but that isnt the only reason megas dont kill runners. The main reason is that they need runners. Most corps will hire the same time that attacked them last week to do a job this week. You know why? Because they were good at it. Its all BIZ. If corps start killing every runner that attacks them, then no runner, fixer, or johnson will ever work with them. Then you have your rival corp sending runner after runner at you with your thumb up your ...

I dont mind the IE and GD (but i do hate the elves more, being that i hate elves.. they get glorified too much). They connect to the old world and they had lots of time to work on themselves (except that dragons were sleeping and elves couldnt initiate in the 5th world). The problem is that those two push out any and all other groups. It is played up that no other group of people, not even megas can defeat them, that is crap. I love Har and Dunk, but they dont need to be behind everything. That is what the "haters" are saying. We love metaplots, we dont mind EI and GD.... only as long as they share the spot lot and dont run the whole world. A GD should be afraid of Aztlan. An EI should be afraid of the Ordus Max. They should be playing against eachother, not just having IE and GD bitching to eachother like tenagers all day and never get anything done.

And with the stats = groups trying to kill it, so what. This isnt dnd, we dont have epic levels where you can stop time and destroy the earth. We have caps, we have npcs that are going to always be able to be stronger, and we have shotguns to the back of the head. At no point in my shadowrun game do my players get to go, "Oh, im too high of level, the cutters are no longer a threat to me" like in DnD where kolbolds are only scary at levels 1-4.

In conclusion, all people want is they keep the IE and GD stuff on par with any other organization. Don't bloat them into these super GM NPCs that can do everything but seem not to beable to rule the world are cause a world in their image. I guess they have more ritualized games to play instead.

Just a quick question: In which official adventure/campaign did Leonardo appear? I just remember him from one novel, but at the moment I don't recall having seen him in any adventure (but I don't have all adventures, so I could have missed him)...

I think it's time for a formal apology. While I haven't been attempting to bait others in this thread, after re-reading most of what I've written, I see how much of a dick I've been and see the baiting going on Trolls are no fun and I realize I've started to see things in Thermo. As I've said before, when I'm wrong, I'm not above apologizing, so here it is.

That being said, I really did start this thread to find out what the issues with IEs and the ED/Horror Metaplot were and why others always grumble when they are mentioned. I started Shadowrun with 4e and although over the last 2 years I've gone back and read buttloads of game material from the older editions, haven't played any of the old adventures. I have a completely biased opinion about these metaplots and "unkillable" characters because I never had to stand as a PC against them. But, as I read the PCs never had too.

But, I have to bring up 2 points and do so without any malice and hopefully will quell some of the hostilities with these.


First, in regards to requesting the Devs to cut back on the immortal elves and ED/fight the horrors metaplot; I understand that there are users who don't like IEs and the fight the horror plot, and I especially understand that there is a lot of animosity towards explaining history's greatest moments in human achievement came from immortal elves, but fluff like that should exist, and here is where I'll use only logic and no bias to explain it.

While some readers and games like the approach of having little bits of info and conspiracy theories to keep their game really open ended, on the other side of the spectrum are the readers and gamers who like the definite proof and knowledge of who's pulling the strings. I always try to find the middle ground because usually that's where you please the most people, but logically if you cut back on the definite information, an entire end of the spectrum is losing what they like about the game. They no longer have their details that their players can read about in the book and enjoy experiencing.

While this upsets the gamers who like their facts unknown and their adventures open, the fat can be trimmed. That's the way it is in any game system. If you trim the fat right out of the gate, those who like the fat get gipped. We can't take off too much before realize we actually needed more than we are left with. Granted, if when writing the devs give lots of alternative conspiracy theories in addition to what really went down, that would be a bit of a consolation, right?

Second, again, I have state bias and say that while I am not an elf fanboy (Never played one, and will never trust an one), the concept of immortality and the fruits such a gift would bring is not lost on me. It could be immortal humans, orks, or trolls for that matter, metatype doesn't matter. But, the ability to learn and train for eons beyond everyone else (especially being a magician) really does create a godling. If a godling and a human with a normal lifespan were put to the same task to invent an object that served the same purpose, wouldn't the godling win? It's discrediting, and sickening to think about, but that's dystopian, and I thought that's what Shadowrun was going for. We find out that we are even more insignificant than we thought we were.

Lastly, I must add another apology for insinuating that those disenfranchised with IEs and ED metaplot to go play another cyber game. I know the the blend of magic, machine and man is what draws people into this game, and continuing a plot from the straight up fantasy setting that preceded (in game chronology) this game is probably too much fantasy for most. To be honest, I really despise fantasy, won't play D&D, and the reason I play Shadowrun is the scientific application of magic in a technical world. However, that being said, knowing that the mana waveform is on the upswing and the horrors/the enemy, whatever you want to call them will return and become more pronounced as the game progresses, seems too big to ignore. So big in fact, it's understandable that the guys at FASA during 2e got really wrapped up in it. I did too when reading it. But yes, we can't forget about all of the other forces acting as well. That's why the Threats books are so awesome. Every now and then, we see multiple factions from these books act simultaneously and create a massive world change. Look at System Failure. It was awesome, and didn't have IEs. Neither did Emergence.

To get back where I was going with that thought, don't go play Cyberpunk2020 and I'm sorry for suggesting it. But we should all give a bit more and take a bit less and at least understand where we are coming from. Remember, that was the point of this thread.

I don't recall him appearing in any adventure, but he featured as a crucial plot device for Renraku and their advances in computer technology.

But... but they're so pretty. *swoon*

"A man isn't a man unless he's ugly, and a woman isn't a woman unless she's pretty" Capt. K'nuckles said it best. At least elves in shadowrun can be badass combat monsters (unlike dnd where they all wear dresses and drink tea out of tiny china).

Similar question: Featured in a novel or in a sourcebook?

He's featured in the SR4 BBB p. 31, for one thing.

Got a few corrections up top there for ya.

All I can say is that the demons aren't annoying at least. They're sneaky, they're evil, they get people to do things for them for perceived power, and they're more than a bit nasty, but dammit, they aren't annoying. Besides, we can (have and will) cack the demonic seeds once we find the mo-fos who are carting them around. We already ran into the "big bad" and it's only a Force 7 evil spirit (well, back then it was when it caught my gangers axe with one hand and told him to leave or he would get hurt...badly).

Harley was like the anti-we-want-to-help-you guy. He's chatting us up to nothing but, "Yeah, boss", "Good idea, boss", and "Please shut the fuck up because you're creeping me out, boss" and we were so totally spazzed out that he had to eventually tell us to help him with his BS ritual to find asshat's lair (where we wiped out Prince Ponce's guards in one turn and punked down the dragon in one hit) or he would pop our collective heads like grapes. We were all, "Umm...got to go, boss. Got my fav trid coming on and all that. GF is sick. Cat needs to be walked. You know how it is..." We grudgingly helped and then watched him fly off on his air elemental of really-damn-bigness after telling us to go to X spot or he'd kill us, resurrect us, and kill us really extra painfully the second time.

Tons o' fun, gotta tell you!

That's a start, thanks. I'm still searching for the quote where it's said that he invented the Matrix (or something like this), as (at least according to the novel) Renraku started making a deal with him long after 2050 (and the Matrix did already exist then). So I'm still unsure how much of the whole "Leonardo was SO important" thing is something from a novel or really official.

IIRC he featured prominently in the novel "Black Madonna". And then mentioned in passing in other books/sourcebooks being behind some of Renraku's developments. Then having disappeared again.

First of all: I don't think that novels are sourcebooks. I read them for the flair, but not to learn new things about the Shadowrun background. If I did this, I would have to differ between different types of books (for example "obviously bullshit" and "could be canon") and that's more work than I want to invest

So, still, somehow it sounded to me, that people though the Leonardo was sooo important for the technological development, but everything I read in sourcebooks just sounds like he gave Renraku a little advantage over other corps, he didn't invent the Assist or anything like this (and most of his knowledge disappeared with him). Did I miss something here? Does any sourcebook state that he was important to the development of the Matrix or anything like this?

Maybe I'm blind....I have been in the past hehe but not seeing a mention of Leo on pg 31 just a mention of SK's in Renraku blurb they along with an AI were being worked on way before he showed up. ie Original trilogy of SR novels make mention of Raku's AI program and Dodgers first contact with it IIRC.

It seems to me that part of the problem is how people see things based on their own perceived framework.

I like the Fourth World back story, and that it flavours the world. Having said that it has very little effect on most of the campaigns I have been involved with.

I agree with a previous poster that no player like being completely railroaded, but having an NPC be unkillable is different from a completely linear adventure where the players just die if they don't do exactly what the GM wants.

The former is flavour (especially since any PC/NPC can be saved by their own karma and hand-of-god), the latter is bad GMing.

As for the immortal elves being everywhere and behind everything. I just don't see it that way for the actual canon events. Having said that; of course there will be rumors to the contrary, once you know of even one immortal you start seeing them everywhere. 'tis the nature of conspiracy theories. Just because some in universe author says so does not make it true.

For example one throwaway line on page 31 of SR4 is pretty minor. For the IE fans, it is a mere breadcrumb, while for the IE haters, it is an insult. That discrepancy is clearly in the eyes of the beholder, not in the line itself.

One thing I have always assumed about almost any writing in any SR book (outside of the actual rules mechanics) is that it is in universe (even the core books history chapter). That gives anyone a lot of leeway on how they interpret things. Like IE, than Leonardo is who he claims to be; don't like IE, than he is just a delusional genius.

P.S. Having not read the Leonardo novel, does it conclusively state (in an out of universe fashion) that he was really Da Vinchi, or just strongly imply so? I've always assumed it was the latter.

P.P.S. Even if the novel leaves no doubt on Da Vinci, what other notable humans from history have been officially declared to be IEs? (as opposed to in game rumors)

It's been a while and I've only read the translation, so I can't be that sure, but if I remember correctly, the IE stated that he wasn't Leonardo, but that he admired him so much that he decided to take his name.
Edit: And I think, the Leo<->Renraku Connection was much later than the Sam Verner-Trilogy, where the first AI comes up, so I don't think he was the "inventor" of the AI (esp. not with Mirage being born long before that).

Look under "Mega shuffle". And just to make it clear: I do not claim Leo was lauded as the inventor of the matrix or Ais, he was however described as the one responsible for the tech advantages that propelled Renraku to the forefront in matrix/computer tech.

And could you also point were it says anything about IE, becouse it just talks about an elf who claimed to be Leonardo. Even if that person was the real Da Vinchi, there's still no need for him to be IE.

Here's the passage:

Instead of having others search the stuff, check this for yourself please: http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Immortals.htm#44

So all information pertaining to Immortal Elves being anyone famous from Fifth World history is just in-game rumor.

If you do like it, great; if you don't, than the rumors are just name dropping and wacko conspiracy theory.

It's tidbits like this (From Ancient's site): "Leo is a genius, with his particular focus being light and optics. He has developed very impressive powers of magical illusion; and also possesses the Channels of the Otaku. His self-developed light-based technology is levels beyond the bleeding edge of science."
which irk me.

Bobby is a Catalyst freelance writer but the Ancient History Files aren't official canon.

Bobby references the books directly. If you don't like the summary or description, you're free to scroll down to see where the references are and see where they are and read them for themselves. Bobby also hasn't gotten around to updating the site in quite a few moons, and while that might have been correct as of 2057, its a little dated now.

A little. A cyberdeck you can use just by looking at it is still kinda cool.

But why wouldn't an immortal (elf, man or otherwise) be light-years (pardon the pun) ahead of the competition? He's had eons to learn and perfect his craft, and even if he was of ordinary intelligence, he'd have enough time to think thing out slowly.

Yeah, that just doesn't bother me. I mean, if his stuff was so great, why hasn't he started a corp to sell it, or leveraged his tech to become a partner in one of the megacorps? So he can build some cool stuff, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to revolutionize the Matrix. And if you can accept the premise of the Immortal Elves, then it only stands to reason that they're going to be years ahead of everyone else because they've had a couple thousand years to experiment.

Yes, you certainly do and my statement wasn't meant to give offense. My apologies if it came off that way.

It's the ED connections (ex: During the Age of Legend, an eccentric elf named Leonarus lived in a crystal house developing magical theories based on light) that are insubstantial to me. And I'm saying that as someone who is indifferent to Earthdawn as a setting. Until some sort of joint Redbrick/Catalyst venture comes along and an official Shadowrun/Earthdawn crossover is announced and published it's all speculation. Well cataloged and indexed speculation but speculation none the less.

I think I see now where I and Fuchs differ on this matter.

I firmly believe that IE's and GD's are an integral part of SR like Magic or Cyberware. They are something that has always been there and SR would not be SR without them.

Fuchs does not necessarily see them as such a vital element of the setting and feels that they often lead to problems that spoil the game for everyone.

I can see his point but would contend that this is not a problem with IE''s per se but with one of three groups acting like w*nkers.

Authors.

Seriously, every time I read the words 'Magical Cyberdeck' I throw up in my mouth a little bit. W*nker.


GM's.

A number of people have complained about getting rail-roaded by Harlequin and others with a 'Do as your told or I'll kill you' plot-line. You need a new GM. That one is a w*nker.


Players.

A number of people have said that the problem is, to quote the God NPC's link, 'You can't kill the motherfuckers.' Seriously, what the f**k are you doing trying to kill the Johnson? You don't get karma for killing people, or extra karma for killing hard people. You get karma for achieving objectives, regardless of how they are achieved. If you want to 'defeat' Harlequin outwit or double-cross him. If the best you can come up with is to knee-jerk try to kill him then go back to the game that gives you cancer. W*nkers.

That last one is exactly the reason these NPC's don't have stat's. To discourage players that have not adjusted to SR yet.

The material advises the DM to "roll until they succeed, ignore stats" for the DM pet NPCs. Mighty hard to outwit anyone who is supposed to win all the time - including judge intentions, con, negotiation, etc. etc. Unkillable, unbeatable, just stupid.
I know in D&D I can't outwit the gods, since they always roll 20, and autosucceed on most rolls, and are omniscient and immortal. I thought I let that behind when I started playing Shadowrun, and entered a world where everyone has to watch their backs.
If I am supposed to suffer godlings who don't even play by the rules, I might as well play D&D with cyberware, same "mood".
Do we want to kill the Johnson? Only if he crosses us and we survive. Do we want to kill our target? If we get hired to. Do we want to play in a game where the DM, sorry, GM flat out says "you can't kill this NPC no matter what I or you do"?
No. If the GM can't play the NPC in a way that makes my character to not want to kill/beat the NPC (which isn't bloody hard anyway - there are Johnsons to act as middlemen, there is courtesy, professionalism and respect, there is "here's a shitload of money, do you do the job" instead of "do it or I kill you!"), then the NPC should not be used.
But if the GM uses the NPC to show off "cool immortal elves, yeah", then bullies and bosses around everyone who doesn't fall over fawning and praying at the feet of the walking god, then that's, at least for me, plain wrong.
And the attitude some material presents, like "whatever the pcs do, the IE/GD thought of it, and planned for it, or wants them to act like that" - check the Lofwyr entry in threats 2 - doesn't really help.

So we're in agreement then? Although I think that it is the GM who should not be used rather than the NPC>

If the authors write IEs and GDs in such ways, bullying everyone around them, and doing as they please, then that doesn't help. And it really doesn't help if they write sourcebooks that tell GMs to play them that way.
The fault lies not just with GMs, but also with authors.

Which is what the complaints can be summed up: Too many, too powerful IEs, too obvious and too blantant in too many places and areas.

I still say the Ordo Maximus is a better model how to use IEs than SR2 and SR3.

i've more or less found a way around such things . . basically, as soon as a gM starts like that, i start rolling up new characters left and right and every time he tries such a stunt my characters basically do suicide and i start doing something else . . if i feel really wronged, the suicide might include TPK after asking the other players . .

I've taken the time to flip through both Harlequins, and I'm not seeing it. In the first one, the PCs don't even meet Harlequin or know that they are working for him until the very end, and they are always enticed with promises of handsome payment (promises which are kept). In Harlequin's Back they're all spontaneously thrust into an Astral Quest during their sleep by random forces of Fate and can't wake up until the quest is completed. Harlequin doesn't threaten them and he doesn't have to.

There seems to be some disconnect between your perception of how IEs are officially write in the few adventures where they appear and how IEs actually are written in the few adventures in which they appear.

Let's show how others might view that:

The entire point of the unkillable NPC is to prevent the Players from affecting the metaplot. It is merely a tool to keep game worlds standardized to the official plotline.

Remember, standardizing the results of events involving the players' choices - without any consideration to the players' choices - is 100% railroading. Standardizing background is different, but once play begins, staying 'canon' shouldn't really be a concern. If NPCs are unkillable in the background, that's fine - the GM just rules it such - but once in play, the players' choices have to matter or else you've moved away from game and towards storytelling. That might be fine for some, but obviously not for those that want to the story to play out differently and try to make that happen by using the rules given to them to alter it.

Either the GM plays by the same rules or he's a lame-ass cheating dickhead.

I have a problem with immortality instantly equating godlike ability, and I think making IEs statless is lazy writing. Look at the SR4 core book, and they finally gave Great Dragons stats - and it wasn't too hard, was it? I'm going to re-post something I wrote in a previous IE discussion, only updating the crunch part to SR4:

Generic Great Dragons had stats in SR3, and probably earlier (Arlesh had stats way back in SR1's Bottled Demon). It is only a few (a very few) metaplot-important GDs such as Lofwyr and Ghostwalker that are truly statless. Others haven't been given stats because they weren't major players that PCs would be interacting with.

One funny thing about Arlesh is that she carries around a pistol that she doen't know how to use, but is fairly skilled in the use of shuriken.

That's ridiculous. Cyberpunk doesn't have magic. There's more to SR than just the story - personally I'm not a fan of the story at all, even though I like the setting.



That's awesome, and that's exactly how IE/GDs should be used. If they were always like that in the fluff, this thread pretty much wouldn't exist.

Immortal elves don't become a problem just because the player knows about them, they become an issue if they come to the foreground of the campaign (show up in person) and retain their 'immortal' status.



I concur.



It's only unwise to blackmail a superpower if they aren't already trying to kill you. When a world power is gunning for you, the only way you're going to get a cease-fire is initiating a state of MAD.

The whole point of an RPG (as opposed to a novel) is that the metaplot shouldn't be carved in stone from the outset. There are supposed to be allowances for the players doing something unexpected. The best way I've seen it done was in Living Arcanis: evey time a module was going to have a sequel, it came with a survey on its initial run, which the GM filled in to describe what the situation was at the end of the module for all the plot critical points, complete with an 'other' option in case the players did something the module writer didn't expect. After the initial run of the module, the surveys decided what the 'canon' ending was. Thus, they struck a balance between letting the players do what they will vs. not having them screw up the plot, all the while letting the players have an actual effect on the ongiong development of the game world.

Simply saying 'I know at some point I want to write a sequel, so I'm going to decree that this NPC is inviolable, even though he meets the PCs face-to-face' is poor writing for an RPG.



Tying in to my last point, if you want a sequel you have a second disk! You don't just tell the PCs 'no, you can't crack it. What do you mean why not? Because you just can't, OK?!

Instead, after letting the hacker look at it, you tell him that in his own professional opinion, he probably can't crack it without ruining it, but he's welcome to try. Then you set the threshold to crack it at, like, 15 - if he blows edge and gets lucky, good for him! If he tries and fails (far more likely), tehy don't get paid. By giving the players the chance to shoot themselves in the foot, you take away the sour taste of railroading.





I encourage you to read Neil Gaiman's Sandman graphic novels, particularly the parts concerning the character Hob Gadling. He lives for hundreds of years, but at the end of it, he's still just a normal human. He's run the gamut of careers, travelled the world, and returned from abroad as his 'son' many, many times, he's forgotten more things than most people ever learn, but at the end of the day, he's still just a normal person. He's a little more wise and worldly for his experiences, but he's no smarter than the rest of us, or than he was the day he decided dying was for chumps.

The character of Hob rings true so much more then the 'immortal elf' bullshit, because it doesn't really matter how long you live, you can still only do what you, as a normal human (or elf) are capable of. You spend 100 years learning to craft swords, and became the foremost artisan of blades in all the world, good for you! 200 years later, after composing a classical symphony, you suddenly find the smithing hammer feels unwieldy in your hand, and you can't pick out the impurities in steel like you used to be able to, because it's been two hundred years since you last practiced. There is only so much any individual can learn, and focusing in a certain direction inherently leads other areas to suffer.

As to, 'they've had longer to think about it,' that's crap. Something unexpected comes up, and if you aren't a quick thinker you're screwed. And something unexpected always comes up. It doesn't matter how long you have to prepare, or how towering your intellect is, you can still be blindsided by factors beyond your control. Even old World of Darkness wasn't as bad - for all that ancient vampires, powerful mages and The Technocracy supposedly shaped humanity's history, there are plenty of exmples where an ordinary human did something amazing (the Virtual Adepts tradition book mentions that Alexander Graham Bell was a mundane human, even though the Adepts and the Technocracy both try to take credit for the telephone).

If anything, elves that had been alive for several thousand years would be sick of all the political powermongering and would be living in a remote mountain cottage somewhere living the simple life. The whole immortal = god shtick makes me sick because it's bullshit, not because it 'threatens my intellect' or something.



This. If you want to introduce metaplot elements into your game (especially if you're writing a module) you have to leave the possibility open to have that metaplot influenced by the PCs actions, otherwise you might as well just put the dice away and read the players a story. If you want that module to have a sequel, then leave the plot hooks for part two behind the scenes so that even if the PCs decide to teleport to andromeda instead of turning left, you can still draw them in to part two. Have some related element that the PCs will find out about later on, that won't show up in part one, so that even if the plot critical NPC dies, they still get contacted by his butler (whom they've never met) 6 months later.

It's not that hard.

It is absurd to say that immortals are OK, but one interpretation of the ramifications is bullshit compared to another, since there are no actual examples.

No one can say how it would really work until we actually have immortals. (which is coming IRL by the way, given the current state of biotechnology, it is not unreasonable to expect that the first immortals are already alive.)

Anyway, immortals might half-forget one career as they study another, or they might develop mental disciplines to avoid exactly that. There is nor reason (other than story concept) to choose one view over the other. If an individual has Logic, Intuition, and Willpower all at 7, I see no reason to believe they would not be able to hang on to any skills they feel are important.

If you don't want to feel railroaded (choo-choo!) or you don't want to be limited to street level campaigns, don't use Shadowrun metaplots. Stick with the basic setting, use the equipment, magic and critters but dump the metaplot and set up stats for Great Dragons, Megacorporate Chairmen and Immortal Elves so your PCs can blow them away. That is the only way you'll achieve 100% GM and PC autonomy in this RPG system. My players went into Shadowrun knowing full well they'd never be President of the UCAS because they wanted to follow the metaplots that Catalyst puts out. But if that's not what you want, cool.

Shadowrun isn't a Living-type game. The publisher gives us the story and we follow. I'm not against the idea of it changing to a Living system. But until the Catalyst business model includes that kind of thing and the system changes I don't know what could make everyone happy. And even if the publishers polled everyone and gave us what we said we wanted, we'd probably say, "Well, yeah, that's what I said I wanted but what I meant was..." There's no perfect system.



Saying "No you can't because I said so" is a classic GM dick move and I certainly never did that. I let my player's PC have a go at cracking the uncrackable disk. He rolled his dice. I told him he didn't hit the necessary thresh hold. He cranked himself up on speed, called in every favor he had, and hit it with every die his PC's skills could muster. I told him he didn't make it. He was bummed but those were the breaks. Wasn't that hard. I don't see the point in going to the effort to set a skill level for something that story-wise isn't meant to be broken. Eventually the player gets the idea that its out of his league and lets the challenge go. He's experienced enough with Shadowrun in all its editions to know that there are some things the PCs are never going to figure out. Nature of the game.

As I've admitted bias, one clearly also sees yours. You have to realize that your idea is not your own either, but merely that of Neil Gaiman's, which has clearly influenced on how you feel about the matter. I happen to believe otherwise. Even if someone was to practice any kind of skill for one lifetime longer than anyone else, he'd still be way ahead of everyone else. I'd say that matter still stands.


Also, I believe the guys at catalyst are using surveys to do just that on whatever game you mentioned. With all of the missions campaigns, surveys are open on the website for the GMs to respond to, and after so much time they close down and the players have actually affected the world. The official results are up shortly there after and everybody feels they had a part. Yay. This is great and I am sure we'll see some of these results in the sourcebooks down the line. (I do really like this idea and wish I had been playing the missions through as they came out. I am trying to get a group to go through the missions with me now to catch up and start the NYC missions so we can play through those as they come out).

That being said though, at any time a group decides to run a module, there is a certain level of etiquette that needs to be adopted and usually a prescribed level and type of play specified for that module. Nobody is forcing you to play the module, but if you and your group want to run it and "live" part of the canon, then it's always in the players and GMs best interest that everybody understands the world and the player etiquette to get the most out of the module. That's just how it goes. If you don't like it, you can alter the rules to fit your group, but don't expect to be involved in shaping the world.

It's like sports. The players know the rules of the game, and they can participate in real events and tournaments using the universal rules. That doesn't keep a bunch of kids shooting hoops in their driveway from making up their own rules to make their game more fun, but it does prevent them form participating in tournaments until they know the rules of the game.

Now, despite what's happened in the past with the focus on the singular horrors/IE/ED metaplot in 2e, take a look at what has been done with the threats 1 and 2 books. These show that it's not all IEs and GDs pulling the strings, and every now and then we'll see a bunch of these guys acting and shaping the world. I said it before and I'll say it again, System Failure and Emergence were awesome and the didn't include a single IE, so let's not get all up in arms when we see the guys at Catalyst doing some 20th anniversary stuff alluding to Earthdawn.

Check the aforementioned "Shadowrun Companion" (page 86, Ultimate). The book flat out tells the GM to ignore stats and rules and "roll dice until you succeed" and so on.

That's bad design. As was pointed out before, not everyone appreciates railroads. The idea of playing a RPG is, at least for me, to affect the story. If I was just to follow an author's plot I'd read the book. If there is not even the slightest chance to affect the story, then I won't play.

So, what's the real problem here ??

That some elves are immortal ??
That some non-player characters have high skill levels ??
That some characters are more powerful than players will ever likely to be ??
That there are some non-player characters without official stats ??
That SR is linked to Earthdawn ??
That there are non-player characters who can kick the player character's arse with barely an effort ??
That there are non-player characters with gear and abilities the player character doesn't have access to ??

Because not everyone thinks like you, and insists that a Corp is the way forward ??
Corps are a reasonably new thing for society, and Corporations as we have them now [2008] aren't really very longterm, only existing because some money folks in the 19th century rewrote the rules to gain some business.

Leo is described as a bit of a romantic, with ideals...
...And did what he did was to create a place for artists and technologists from all over the world to get together and usher in a new age.

Like the Big D, Leo saw a better world...
...Or one that needed to be better prepared for the Horrors to come.

Take your pick.

As we saw in the novel, Leo could pillage any MegaCorp he wanted to, anytime he wanted to - with no problem, and no repercussions.

He could have kept doing that, and have anything he wanted...
...In fact, who's to say he hadn't been doing that for years and no-one noticed ??

A character able to hack into the core systems of all megacorps at the same time blackmails them for some rather insignificant money, instead of just taking that money.

Yeah, right. Stupdity at its worst - both from the power level of "one IE bests all corps, yeah, baby!" to "he can do that, and doesn't even think of simply taking the money? Who is he, Dr. Evil?".

Leo is the poster boy for how not to write IEs in Shadowrun.

I was just ironysing a bit. The way you describe the encounter Harlequin, I would never have liked that character either. The way I perceive it through books, he seems interesting.

Actually, when you described the scenario, I found that it used similar mechanics to those used by many RPGs including med-fan settings. It's not a critic in itself because it can produce very entertaining storys, but I just found amusing that you gave that as an exemple just after the "SR isn't DnD" argument

No because:

1-You don't increase your intelligence indefinitely, your increase your experiences or your knowledge. Hence, as the matrix is still young, he battles on equal grounds with everyone else.

That's why they had to combine magic and the matrix, to give the IEs their 4000 year advantage there too. And with technomancy now every IE super mago dragon can potentially be a king of the matrix without even touching their precious essence, because it's just regular humans who are a phase out model in Shadowrun, which further devalues the cyberpunk component. The general cyberpunk metaplot of humanity starting to discard their meat bodies is now worthless, congratulations.

Sure, but that bad general design, not a specific problem with whatever examples are presented.

Since all the examples presented for those NPCs are IEs and GDs it's a general and specific problem.

Nope.