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Tsithlis
Why is it that there is no Teleportation in the game? Is it even possible to create such a spell?
Tarantula
Its that way because that is how the game was designed.

No.
SM, 159, "Sorcery Cannot Alter the Fabric of the Space/Time Continuum.
Spells cannot directly change distance or the passage of time. Teleportation and time travel are the holy grails of magical R&D departments the world over, but no one has been able to unravel the knotty problem of affecting space or time with magic. Spells can speed up or slow down processes, such as healing or chemical reactions, and allow subjects to move quickly, but they cannot directly alter time or space."
paws2sky
According to canon, there are a few limitations to magic that no one has been able to overcome.

The two biggest ones, IMHO, are teleportation and resurrection.

-paws
Fortune
One of the cornerstones of Sixth World magic is that teleportation is not possible via Sorcery. That doesn't mean that the Corps don't spend millions each year in research trying to achieve that very thing.
Gast
IEs and GDs can do it but you can't!

I base my ranty answer on the Earthdawn Gate spells available for high-ranking Mages.
At least I think it was Mages.
And maybe it wasn't Teleportation.
Lionhearted
Oh I dont know about that.. Who knows what magical mysteries the GD's and IE's hide from us..
(I for one is convinced that Harlequinn possesses teleportation magic and have long since mastered Stealth Hi bye )
Tarantula
Shortcuting to the metaplanes and back, or to the astral plane and back != teleportation. Though its similar in appearance.
MaxMahem
By canon no. Magic cannot teleport something. Or at least a spell can't do it.

But I have often wondered why this is such an absolute. Obviously introducing cheap and easy teleportion into the game has far reaching effects and is probably a bad idea.

But would allow highly expensive and/or restricted teleporting into the game necessarily be a bad thing? It wouldn't be something I would regularly want to put in the hands of players, but as a primarily GM mechanic I think it could work.

Consider this. The runners need to get to some highly magically protected and isolated location to do some dirty work. Tibet immediatly springs to mind but I imagine a variety of other location could qualify. Getting in is nigh impossible without some magical artifact/connections/whatever that the players are unlikely to get. So they look for an alternative route, one of there contacts (probably a pretty odd one with magical connections) informs them that he may know of a way, but its risky and never has been tried before. The runners (having no other options) go for it. The contact proposes that the runners go to some other highly magical location they could (possibly with some difficulty) get to. There, the contact (possibly a free-spirit) undergoes a complex ritual that allows them to travel physically to the meta-planes. After a difficult spiritual quest on the planes the runners succeded in opening another gateway at their destination. There, the REAL fun can start. You could further limit the ritual by saying its only possible when the stars and moon are in the alignment or some such.

I wouldn't do it every game, but I see no reason to totally disallow teleporation just because.

----

I would also note that free-spirits CAN teleport in just this manner, via the metaplanes. I don't have runners companion, but since PC's can be Free Spirits (with the GM's permission) isn't this an option for them?
Tarantula
Max, like I just said, that is not teleportation. That is going from here, to the metaplanes, then back to here.

Teleportation would be, going from here, to somewhere else here, with nothing at all in between, just *poof*.
MaxMahem
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 1 2008, 04:50 PM) *
Max, like I just said, that is not teleportation. That is going from here, to the metaplanes, then back to here.

Teleportation would be, going from here, to somewhere else here, with nothing at all in between, just *poof*.


Not going to get into semantics with you.

But to me, if I travel from point-A to point-B without going through all the points that would normally be in between, that is teleportation. I mean after all there really isn't any form of teleportation that doesn't imply the transport of a though some other medium somehow, somewhere.

I should also point out to an outside observer, the runners travel through the metaplanes might well be instantaneous, after all time there does not have to mean the same thing it does here. Certianly when a free-spirit does it any outside observer who saw what happened and ignorant to the underling mechanics (which would still probably still be the majority of the people in the 6th world) would call it such.

But hey, call it whatever you like. Like I said, arguing the meaning of words really isn't my thing.
Ancient History
By your definition, a plane ride is teleportation because you didn't walk all that way.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
I mean after all there really isn't any form of teleportation that doesn't imply the transport of a though some other medium somehow, somewhere.

True teleportation does just that - there is no travel medium involved whatsoever.
ShadeRavnos
In my thinking the reason that teleportaion doesn't work is be cause the laws of magic say that you must physically see your intended target in order to perform the said spell... ergo, to be able to teleport at all you'd have to see the target area making the spell next to useless. Not saying completely useless cause we all know players have ways of taking something that should have no use at all and ruining your best laid plans.

Not to mention just imagine the drain the spell would have on said mage just by himself. That's a lot of mana to be channeling thru you just to get a few feet, and if he was taking a whole team with him!

As a GM I perfer that there are no teleporting/time altering spells... I really don't even like clarvoyence like spells for that matter, but that goes into a whole other arguement.
Muspellsheimr
Going from Location A to Location B with no inbetween is teleportation. What you are describing (metaplanar travel) is not going from one place to another without the inbetween, it is going to one place from another without the normal inbetween, and is not teleportation.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
In my thinking the reason that teleportaion doesn't work is be cause the laws of magic say that you must physically see your intended target in order to perform the said spell... ergo, to be able to teleport at all you'd have to see the target area making the spell next to useless.

You wouldn't need LOS for ritual magic. How about a ritual sending that allows you to teleport to the location of the target character/creature/object?
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Not to mention just imagine the drain the spell would have on said mage just by himself.

This is entirely subjective. I could just as easily imagine this effect as having only moderate Drain.
Ol' Scratch
Teleportation isn't supported in the rules because it would trivialize several types of runs. Extractions and theft being the two big ones. Yes, sometimes the rules really are that fundamental to gameplay.
HappyDaze
Sometimes I feel that existing magical options - such as healing and spirit hordes - trivialize some aspects of runs. However, just as those can be countered, so too could teleportation be blocked. In fact, the same things that prevent a ritual sending assassination could prevent telportation.
Ol' Scratch
I'm not saying I agree with it. But that's the real reason teleportation isn't an option. Doesn't have anything to do with any real in-game magical theories and, in fact, was only confusing if you look at some of the older spells. Like the one that conjured food and water (with conjuration just being teleportation to you rather than taking you somewhere).
HappyDaze
QUOTE
But that's the real reason teleportation isn't an option.

True enough. Not that some of us settle for totally metagame reasons or the clasic 'the writers made it that way - so even if it doesn't make sense, that's how it's going to be' crap, right?
wink.gif
Alieth
I'm glad there isn't teleportation in Shadowrun, it would just make it another game with magic.

Teleportation is going from one place to another without anything inbetween. The talk about going from here, to the metaplanes, and then back here in a difference place is transportation, not teleportation. It is just another means of travel, because it still takes time.

Teleportation: A hypothetical method of transportation in which matter or information is dematerialized, usually instantaneously, at one point and recreated at another. -Dictionary.com

Teleportation is not possible in Shadowrun, because like someone said earlier, it would defeat the purpose of a lot of mission types. If you could just teleport in, grab the item\person, and teleport out, why even do it?
sunnyside
I like how it is. There isn't any teleportation yet. Though they try.

But you can get similarish effects if you really want to for the plot through various metaplanar schenanigans. But those carry their own distinct risks.

HappyDaze
QUOTE
Teleportation is not possible in Shadowrun

IIRC, teleportation is possible in the Shadowrun videogame, right?
sunnyside
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Oct 1 2008, 09:03 PM) *
IIRC, teleportation is possible in the Shadowrun videogame, right?




Hisssssssss

*gets out the hardliners.

Ancient History
ShINO: Shadowrun In Name Only
Lionhearted
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Oct 2 2008, 03:03 AM) *
IIRC, teleportation is possible in the Shadowrun videogame, right?


I actually a letter published in the Swedish PCgamer for ranting about how they dare making a Shadowrun game and not making it a RPG.. Never mention that blasphemous game again.. its easy to slip on the trigger wink.gif
Rad
Aside from ruining the challenge/point of high-security facillities, I think the real reason teleportation and metaplane dimension-shunting isn't possible/easy is this:

Bug Spirits.

Imagine if a whole hive could just drop in without needing to shuck their bodies and posses one of ours?

That brings up an interesting concept, though: What if someone discovers how to replicate that method of inter-planar transportation? Imagine hopping over to the metaplanes, then hopping back and trying to inhabit Joe Wageslave to get past security--permanently dumping your body in the process.

Even worse, imagine an elite magical security force that can jump into anyone's body to apprehend you. Shit, I think I just created the agents from The Matrix.
kanislatrans
let us not bring up the Malformed Mangled Monstrosity from Microslot. grinbig.gif grinbig.gif

However, on subject of teleportation ,back in SR1, the Gm tossed my street mage a teleportation spell. Drain code from Hell and very short ranged( about 100meters max if I remember correctly). I only used it maybe twice. It wasn't a game breaker but ended up just not worth the drain. He explained it as dragging your physical body into the astral for a split second.
It did bring up an interesting moment though. the team was in a rapidly failing aircraft over a tributary of the Amazon. The plane was barely flying and everyone was preparing for a splashdown when Wormwood, my mage gets a brain storm. Turning to the rest of the team, he smiles and says "see you on shore, suckers!" and casts his little astral jaunt spell. luckily, he popped back in about 20 meters from shore and skipped a couple of times before crashing into the thick jungle foliage. Hence the rule "never teleport from a moving vehicle." grinbig.gif grinbig.gif

Personally, I like the idea that some things just can't be done with magic(yet).
the_real_elwood
Part of the problem with teleportation is the problem of being able to move information faster than the speed of light. If you can do that, it's essentially time travel, for some reasons that are better articulated by theoretical physicists than me. Something about essentially being in 2 places at the same time, and being able to exploit that to break the laws of physics. But I don't see why Shadowrun couldn't have some kind of teleporter-thing that moved you as data across the matrix, at standard matrix transmission speeds. It'd have to be ridiculously expensive, extraordinarily rare, and maybe limited to smaller things, but I don't see how it'd be game-breaking.

But as far as magic not allowing such a thing, it's pretty hardwired into the rules and would require some serious retconning by the devs to get rid of.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
ShINO: Shadowrun In Name Only

To some people, this applies to SR4 too.
wink.gif
Ancient History
"If you think it, it can't be right."
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Aside from ruining the challenge/point of high-security facillities, I think the real reason teleportation and metaplane dimension-shunting isn't possible/easy is this:

It wouldn't ruin shit. Wards should still block out teleportation, so there's no problem of high security facilities being tele'd in and out of with ease.

QUOTE
Part of the problem with teleportation is the problem of being able to move information faster than the speed of light.

Not a problem. For one, there is NO MOVEMENT faster than light or any other. there is simply ceasing to exist at one point and simultaneously coming into existance at the other. Physics and magic don't have to agree perfectly. Look at the Movement power for a greeat example of this.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
"If you think it, it can't be right."

"If you wrote it, it's probably shit."
Ol' Scratch
Wards don't block anything. They just make it more difficult. Likewise, everything in the universe, basically, would have to be uber-warded so as to protect just about anything of any value. Else your average street mage could teleport in and take whatever he wanted, no one the wiser.

It would also suck the other way around. Tracking down criminals or anyone else would just be a matter of sending a few watchers or spirits out and, once found, an entire cabal of mages teleport in and have their way with them. No matter where they are. No matter how entrenched they were. And non-mages would have practically no defense against such a thing at all.

It would essentially turn the entire game world upside down. Magic would be too powerful, teleportation spells would pretty much be a requirement for anyone capable of working magic, and... it just goes on and on.

Unlike other game worlds, Shadowrun at least tries to make the implications of magic in the world plausible. It's not like D&D where you have to completely suspend your disbelief in order to ignore the practical applications of several spells and abilities and how they would impact the world. Teleportation magic being a prime example, but also the power to create something out of nothing, the ability to turn lead into gold, and all that hubabaloo.
Isath
To some SR4 is more Shadowrun than other editions have ever been. It is all about change however and SR4 was the first massive change to the game-system - people tend to dislike change, just like mass does. Sometimes mass has to be moved.

On the topic... there is not much news here, teleportation is not part of SR and I am very glad about that. Coming up with ways on how to get into, through, out of some areas is fundamental part of the game concept.
sunnyside
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 1 2008, 09:44 PM) *
Part of the problem with teleportation is the problem of being able to move information faster than the speed of light. If you can do that, it's essentially time travel, for some reasons that are better articulated by theoretical physicists than me. Something about essentially being in 2 places at the same time, and being able to exploit that to break the laws of physics. But I don't see why Shadowrun couldn't have some kind of teleporter-thing that moved you as data across the matrix, at standard matrix transmission speeds. It'd have to be ridiculously expensive, extraordinarily rare, and maybe limited to smaller things, but I don't see how it'd be game-breaking.

But as far as magic not allowing such a thing, it's pretty hardwired into the rules and would require some serious retconning by the devs to get rid of.



True enough. Though hypothetically they could make a "slowportation" spell I guess.

Something where your transit speed is far lower than the speed of light.

But still I wouldn't like it for gameplay reasons.

The only thing I might allow is something that makes metaplanar teleportation possible for players. But they'd know that actually using the method is a good way to show up at location with less availible edge for having to deal with the terrors found on the way.


Oooh maybe there's a metaplane that wants to make that an easier process. Hmmmm I could have a Cthulhuriffic good time with that it might go into my game.
Ravor
Although I'm glad that unrestricted Teleportation is a no-go in the Sith World, I don't think something along the lines of being able to teleport between two places that were prepared beforehand would really be that game breaking.

Oh and something to think about, everyone's favorite IE is supposed to have either 'ported or shunted himself into the metaplanes/astral.
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Oct 1 2008, 09:21 PM) *
It wouldn't ruin shit. Wards should still block out teleportation, so there's no problem of high security facilities being tele'd in and out of with ease.


Not a problem. For one, there is NO MOVEMENT faster than light or any other. there is simply ceasing to exist at one point and simultaneously coming into existance at the other. Physics and magic don't have to agree perfectly. Look at the Movement power for a greeat example of this.


If you simultaneously cease to exist at point A and resume existence at point B, then you're moving faster than the speed of light, as your travel took exactly zero time. Light, however fast it might be, takes greater than zero time to get from point A to point B. No matter how you accomplish that, through magic or technology, you run into problems with the way the world works. Again, I'm just trying to paraphrase what I've gotten from Physics textbooks, Wikipedia, and other sundry sources. If you really want to debate it, there must be some resident physics grad student here on Dumpshock.
Ravor
Hmm, it was my understsanding that at least at a Quatom Level teleportation coudl exist with no problems what-so-ever. But then again I have never claimed to be a physics student. cyber.gif
Platinum Dragon
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 2 2008, 07:35 AM) *
Shortcuting to the metaplanes and back, or to the astral plane and back != teleportation. Though its similar in appearance.


Anya: Actually, she just wen't airborne. It's flahier, impresses the locals, but it's not as fast.
Xander: As what?
Anya: True teleportation. *vwoomp*

/buffy

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Oct 2 2008, 10:28 AM) *
I'm not saying I agree with it. But that's the real reason teleportation isn't an option. Doesn't have anything to do with any real in-game magical theories and, in fact, was only confusing if you look at some of the older spells. Like the one that conjured food and water (with conjuration just being teleportation to you rather than taking you somewhere).



QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Oct 2 2008, 12:31 PM) *
Wards don't block anything. They just make it more difficult. Likewise, everything in the universe, basically, would have to be uber-warded so as to protect just about anything of any value. Else your average street mage could teleport in and take whatever he wanted, no one the wiser.

It would also suck the other way around. Tracking down criminals or anyone else would just be a matter of sending a few watchers or spirits out and, once found, an entire cabal of mages teleport in and have their way with them. No matter where they are. No matter how entrenched they were. And non-mages would have practically no defense against such a thing at all.

It would essentially turn the entire game world upside down. Magic would be too powerful, teleportation spells would pretty much be a requirement for anyone capable of working magic, and... it just goes on and on.

Unlike other game worlds, Shadowrun at least tries to make the implications of magic in the world plausible. It's not like D&D where you have to completely suspend your disbelief in order to ignore the practical applications of several spells and abilities and how they would impact the world. Teleportation magic being a prime example, but also the power to create something out of nothing, the ability to turn lead into gold, and all that hubabaloo.


Not to mention what teleportation would do to state borders. Can you imagine trying to impose trade tarrifs or check passports when a mage can easily bypass your checkpoint for a handful of credits and 5 minutes?
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 2 2008, 04:34 AM) *
Although I'm glad that unrestricted Teleportation is a no-go in the Sith World, I don't think something along the lines of being able to teleport between two places that were prepared beforehand would really be that game breaking.

It may not be game breaking, but it would dramatically change the face of the setting. Things would be so different that it would take a while to figure it through. It changes all sorts of things on all sorts of scales, in ways that we've not really experienced, which makes changes more difficult to predict.
Platinum Dragon
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 2 2008, 01:54 PM) *
If you simultaneously cease to exist at point A and resume existence at point B, then you're moving faster than the speed of light, as your travel took exactly zero time. Light, however fast it might be, takes greater than zero time to get from point A to point B. No matter how you accomplish that, through magic or technology, you run into problems with the way the world works. Again, I'm just trying to paraphrase what I've gotten from Physics textbooks, Wikipedia, and other sundry sources. If you really want to debate it, there must be some resident physics grad student here on Dumpshock.


Not a physics major myself, but the whole point of using teleportation to go faster then the speed of light is because you aren't actually moving, per se. Light goes from point A to point B by visiting point C and all the other points in between. Teleportation (as it is understood in popular culture) is something else, allowing you to 'cut out the middleman' as it were, by whatever means that particular fictional universe uses. Occasionally, teleportation is also used in science-fiction to describe deconstructing someone atom by atom, beaming the schematic for them to boint B and then reassembling them (a-la Star Trek) but this is usually different to magical teleportation, and is limited by the speed of light (or by the speed of whatever that particular sci-fi universe has used to circumvent the speed of light).

As for quantum teleportation, I'll leave that for someone more qualified.
Mordinvan
As understood by physics transit of mass/energy/information as transluminous speeds is impossible. This does not rule out use of wormholes however, or that magic need not necessarily adhere to laws of physics, as if it did, SR magic couldn't exist in the first place.
Some physics theories indicated the universe is full of microscopic wormholes all the time, so a spell would simply enlarge a local one at your origin, with an exit near your destination. The metaplains route is also a good one, just need to find a way into and off of the meta planes physically, and you can bet it would be less then subtle, but would defeat all wards just as metaplains travel does for spirits. Either way there are many potential problems with such travel. Now if you had the portal take several minutes to form, and be real flashy, ahla terminator time travel, I'm sure it wouldn't be worth drawing that much attention to your point of exit, and cut down on the use of it radically.
Tsithlis
So what if I made a spell that turned me into light and allowed me to move at 186,000 miles per second? That would not be outside the realm of possibility since there is already a spell that will turn you into a critter right?
Ravor
I don't remember if it was here or on another forum, but I remember a discussion that ended with the idea that such a spell would basically be an ELE as the Mage exploded. cyber.gif

However in my campaign you would have to overcome two problems, firstly you would have to figure out a way to survive enough drain to make a Great Dragon explode into chucky salsa even with Edge. And lastly you would have to figure out a way to sustain a spell when you are no longer a sentiant being capable of using Magic in the first place.
Johnny Jacks
QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 1 2008, 10:30 PM) *
And lastly you would have to figure out a way to sustain a spell when you are no longer a sentiant being capable of using Magic in the first place.


It might be possible to arrange things so you Astrally Project just as the spell is cast, and then sustain the spell and guide your body to it's new location from the Astral. The real problem I see (besides the hellish drain this spell would have) is what happens when some of the light that makes up your body gets scattered or absorbed by the atmosphere.
Muspellsheimr
I fully support the concept of some things simply not being possible - teleportation being one of them.

That said, I have designed a spell that can be used as a not-quite-teleportation - Astral Form. Similar to Astral Projection, except while sustained, you become wholly astral, including your body. I have not yet tried to get it into any game because, while I can explain how it bypasses the "spells cannot affect both the physical & astral", I am not quite satisfied with my justification.

As far as balance is concerned, I point at Free Spirits. While I still debate with myself about if they should be allowed as player characters, & they suck in their current form, they do have this ability, & are now official player options (excluding Missions).
Ravor
Naw, because you can't cast spells on the physical plane while projecting, so the Mage is SoL.

I think the most plausible and survivable way would be to pull a Laughing Man and simply rip a hole in the Astral that you can physically step through and then move at Astral Speeds to your destination. You get something that appears to be teleportation while not breaking Sixth World Magical Theory.

Of course, after the shit that Big A's Astral Experiments are supposed to have caused I sure as hell would not want to be in the shoes of the Mage who figured this trick out.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Platinum Dragon @ Oct 1 2008, 10:20 PM) *
As for quantum teleportation, I'll leave that for someone more qualified.

http://xkcd.com/465/
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 2 2008, 12:33 AM) *
Naw, because you can't cast spells on the physical plane while projecting, so the Mage is SoL.

I never said you did. You do not cast the spell while projecting, you cast the spell & while sustained, it forces you to "project".
QUOTE
I think the most plausible and survivable way would be to pull a Laughing Man and simply rip a hole in the Astral that you can physically step through and then move at Astral Speeds to your destination. You get something that appears to be teleportation while not breaking Sixth World Magical Theory.

Similar to that, yes.

My (in my view, unsufficient) explanation of how it does not break magical physics - spells may affect the Astral or the Physical, but not both simultaneously. This one would affect both with a single casting, but not at the same time; it would shift it's effects from the Physical to the Astral.

If anyone else happens to have another explanation of how it could work, I would greatly appreciate it. I do not want to try using this spell until I feel I can appropriately explain how it works without breaking the laws of magic.
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