What ever happened to the errata that was coming down the pipe that would make mana static a slow ramp-up AoE instead of an instant spirit killer?

No clue. Maybe they decided the drain was appropriate to balance the effect. Maybe they'll define permanent spells to take effect at the end of their sustained duration instead of at the start.

Combat Sense > Armor.

I like it!



Yeah you could be right!



I think flats are water-resistant and warm (which could translate in rating 2 chemical protection seeing the Greatcoat in Arsenal) being intended to be used to avoid that acid rain eates your good clothes, they are probably confortable too if gangers use them adding gang colors (don't remeber exactly where I've read it, I think it was seattle chapter of runner havens and sprawl survival guide). Turning them in chic clothes may be an exageration but turning them in good clothes that sell for about 50-100 is possible, think an elegant suit that is warm and water resistant that looks worth 1000 (when you reach high life-styles thing start becoming expensive) for 100 , not the real thing but grant a good first impression with little expenditure (think tailoring them to orks and trolls, nobody expectes them to wear Zoé clothes, and probably their wages are not the best, probably they would be willing to save the money to buy some clothes that fly in the face to the stereotype of the unrefined and somewhat brutish people. Ironicaly you might have problems with having to pay taxes for your profits.



Wait a second if it's part of him can be fixed with heal spell, if not fix should do. Well, this is my point of view.

Based on the same not-being-hit-is-better-than-resisting-damage-filosofy I think Deflection is nice too.

Shouldn't think so - damage from frostbite is from lack of circulation...which a gelatin statue isn't going to have anyway.

OTOH, by SR4's rules, separating the guy into multiple containers is certainly going to kill him, goo or not. And quite a pain to do, too - the goo has a fairly high barrier rating.

Seems logical to me.

Peter

Well, considering heal says it removes boxes of damage, and any cyberware wear/tear damage stuff wouldn't be represented by boxes of damage, then I'd say heal doesn't work.

I would never take fashion in any world in which I didn't already have Physical Mask.

Being able to change my clothes vs being able to walk through a metal detector in a high security environment while carrying a heavy machine gun while changing my clothes?

Yeah.

Physical Mask doesn't do shit to MAD's. It is also limited to the same basic size & shape of the subject, so a HMG is very much pushing it.

Actually, it does. Since it changes all physical properties tangible via senses (it is multi-sense) and since it is a physical spell, you can make your heavy machine gun seem to be a bouquet of roses. And it won't register as metal if the spells hits exceed the detectors object resistance threshold.

Certainly favorites for my Mystic Adept Face (along with the Facial Sculpt, Melanin Control and Voice Control adept powers). If he weren't Aspected to Manipulation spells, he'd certainly be down with Healthy Glow as well, if only for style points.




Hmm, somehow never noticed that one before, but then again I haven't looked at much in the Street Magic grimoire that wasn't Manipulation. Seems like a damn useful one for Faces (alright, my Face would love it at least); even if it's not going to let them use all of their mojo-juju, it's better than not being able to communicate at all...




Depends on your usage really. For my character mentioned above, it's much better to be able to change the look of an outfit on the fly and not have to worry about the sustaining penalty or the effects on the astral while going about his business.

For a generalist/utility mage though, I certainly agree that Physical Mask is going to likely be more universally useful.

Physical Mask can change what something looks like, smells like, & even feels like. It cannot change the properties of that object - weight is unaffected, as is if it is metal or not. If you make an iron bar appear to be soap, a magnet will still stick to it.

The spell might allow you to bypass magnetic anomaly detectors, but until I can find a clear & full description of what it means to be multi-sense, I would say no (so far, all I have found is "affecting multiple/all senses"). I also need to check how, precisely, the detectors work.

This thread is awesome. There's some wildly varied ideas of spell usage I never would have thought of.

To me, "all senses" means it fools everything. I'd say that includes weight (part of touch). Not in that it makes it weigh less, but it makes you perceive it to weigh less. (Yes, this doesn't make much sense, but its magic).
P.255 SR4 has the mad description. But it boils down to this, to detect the item, the mad has to succeed in its check. If the mads OR is exceeded by hits on the spell, its affected by the spell, and as far as it it concerned, the HMG is a bouquet of flowers for perception by all senses. Since flowers aren't metallic, it doesn't even roll, as it only detects metallic things, and as far as it can tell, its flowers.

Make it so you have to beat the object resistance of the MAD in order to fool it, or if you want things to be more risky apply your hits on physical mask as a dice pool penalty to MAD tests.

I respect 'dissenting' opinions on this. For starters the workings of Magnetic anomaly detectors as they apply to military applications is classified today, so fucked if I know how the work in 2070, and drawing conclusions is going to be fun about a technology that may as well be magic.

MADs in military use can and have identified soviet subs made of non ferrous materials. So clearly there are side channels and stuff.

However, the multi-sense spells can beat drones who use Radar, so logically multi sense includes beating cyberware scanners. Incidentally, beating radar essentially requires it to change th base properties of an object.

Its undefined if it beats mag scanners, but as it appears to be the rest of the detection suite, why not?

It's an easy issue to come to different conclusions on. Regular Mask is relatively easy to make a clear cut ruling on; the spell doesn't affect the object so much as it affects how people percieve the object. Physical Mask is problematic because it is described as manipulating light and matter in some nebulous manner. Personally, I believe Physical Mask can beat most types of scanners (after all, that allows it to fill a niche that is needed for many runner teams since an early Matrix intrusion can be a risky gambit at best), but I'd be loathe to claim that there are truly wrong answers in this case.

Frostbite causes damage also at cellular level due formation of ice shards that tear the cellular membrane (is it written this way? In italian is "membrana cellulare"); it also creates problems due to lack of the thermal energy necessary for bio-chemical processes to take place (chemical reactions are devided in tree fases: absorbtion of energy by reagents, this energy breakes the "status quo" putting the system out of balance, transition to a new molecular stucture and a new energy balance, relise of excess energy), freezing the goo you extract heat from it, maybe in goo-form you don't need to worry about frostbite but if goo is not brought back to 36 Celsius degrees the subject will probably be cold dead (pun intended) due it assideration.

In reguard to dividing the goo in multiple bottles I think it is like mist form put it back together befor dropping the spell and the subject should be fine; also I think that goo's high barrier rating is due goo's semi-liquid structure: when you hit it most of energy goes to move matter instead of doing damage, think abuot a bollet fired in the wather, not to that level but gives the idea.

Isn't Translate a mana spell? It affects living beings (as life is defined by magical theory), how can it work on a purely digital entity such an IA? It can't, magic can't affect AR/VR/digital entities so no traslate for IAs.
I would also point that the spell description states that the spell is rather unrefined in delivering the message, it translates the intended meaning without any retorical form or embellishment, so it won't do for negotiation so face has better have a good rating linguasoft (or better know the lenguage). However it's still extremely usefull spell, just don't make it replace lenguage skills/softs, it would cheapen the game.

The most powerful spell is Analyze Device. Cast it on a focus or fetish to get some extra dices for your next spells. Best used on a multiple stacked focus/fetish or a talisman. Use edge for casting and put the spell in a F1 sustaining focus. You will get an incredible amout of extra dices for your Spellcasting. As soon as possible by means of karma, bind another sustaining focus and do it again. When you reach your active foci maximum, recast the spell on the first sustaining focus. You may get an unlimited amount of dices by doing this as long as you stay ouf zones with any background count.

doesn't work like that, as far as i know, because only one focus can assit any specific test, as far as i remember

Plus, the spell gives dice for using the device. Foci aren't used to cast spells - they add dice to the spellcasting. "Using" a focus doesn't even require a test, so analyze device would be useless for that.

Yeah, a force 1 focus is just that: a force 1 focus. You're using it as well as it can be used. Analyze Device doesn't change something's operating parameters; you can use Analyze Device to have an instinctive understanding of how to ride your motorcycle but the base speed and acceleration ratings will remain the same regardless of how skilled you are in its use.

Thats right, but the foci dont give any bonus dices - they are only used to sustain the spell which gives the bonus dices.
You can sustain as much spells as you want to as long as you are able to manage with the -2 modifier or use a sustaining focus. And you can activate as much sustaining foci as your Logic attribute allows. By raw theres nothing against it (but I would strictly recommend to houserule that).



Yes, they are used much like this cleanup kit which also give some extra dices - not as the object of the action but as a tool.



Youre right, but indeed I dont want the spell to change the force of the focus but to change my Spellcasting dice pool. If you can cast it on a comlink to get extra dices for the skills it is used for (hacking, computer,...) or on a electronics toolkit then you can cast it on a focus, too. Raw dont excluse any magical skills for that spell.

Seriously, Analyze Device does not work on Foci of any kind.

Id rather say it is an error in the rulesbook which should be corrected.

heck no, then something like this would work and we'd have something like focuszilla sooner or later . .

I meant, it is in error that the rules say it does work with any type of gear. Foci and fetishes should be excluded. But they arent. And thats why Analyze Device is so overpowered.

What skill or attribute checks are used to use a focus? AFAIK foci don't have an associated test they have bonuses they grant but are not themselves associated with a test. Its as cogent as using Analyze Device to get a bonus to stealth tests on your clothes. Clothes don't have an associated test and neither do foci.

i'd say it's pretty clear why they don't work with foci . .
because ONE FOCUS is seldom a device . . devices usually have more than one moving part . .
really, how hard is it to understand your stick? or your sword? there's no hidden differences like in the barrels of guns, there's no moving parts that affect weight distribution . .
there is nothing THERE to understand . . you understood the magical part, because it is bonded to you and it gives you bonus dice like analize device would with other DEVICES

I should amend what I wrote above... Analyze Device should work with weapon foci but not because its a focus... rather, because its a weapon and the weapon usage itself is a test associated with the device.

if the weapon focus is a gun, crossbow or something similar, i could be persuaded . . something sill/simple like a stick or sword? those are both just hunks of material made for whacking people either with the blunt or with the pointy, no device, only things . .

Analyze Device + Penile Implant....

Stahlseele: Analyze Device works just fine with a sword or other weapon. Your argument that it must be complicated is flawed - knowing how something functions is often not related to knowing how to use it.

As already covered, Analyze Device does not work on a focus - the reason being, there is no test to use a focus. You do, or you do not. If there was a test associated with activating a focus, then Analyze Device would work with them, but only for that test.

and i would still say: if it is not a DEVICE no analyze device for you . .

Fine by me.

A device is not limited to mechanical or electrical operation, just usually refers to such. A device is anything designed for something - aka, a sword is designed for combat, & thus is a device. Disagree? Okay, go read the description of Analyze Device again.


Emphasis mine.

ok, i was thinking of the german word for device, which is gerät . . und du willst mir sicher nicht verklickern wollen, dass ein Schwert ein Gerät ist oder? *g*

This brings up an interesting question(well, to me at least)...I don't see any way that Analyze Device is going to give you extra dice when using a focus, but could it be used to figure out what sort of focus/what power level a focus has for unknown foci? Or is this sort of thing normally handled with an Assensing test?

Mostly curious as my main character right now is a Mystic adept, and they can't astrally percieve by default, so it'd be nice to have a fall back way to identify magical widgets other than hitting up a talismonger all the time, or sounding like one of those other games out there...

that's mostly done by assensing/arcana or . . at least in SR3 there was a Spell of Analize Magic . .

The Analyze Magic spell, from Street Magic, is awesome for identifying magical things. It's also good for sorcerers, who would have a severe penalty for using the assensing skill.

Using real world terms a focus is a device for all the reasons Muspellsheimr gave. In game it is not because devices are things with a device rating.

It's moot in this case though. Re-read the spell and,



you can see that a "peice of equipment" is a valid target and a focus is unquestionably that.

Also I really don't see why this spell wouldn't work on a focus (not that I'd let it fly at my table). What is the functional differance between looking for something and looking for something with binoculars + Analyze device, vs. Casting a spell and casting a spell with a focus + Analyze device.

The argument that there is no test to activate the focus is bunk. There is no test to activate the binoculars either. At the out side you could (if your GM had a double spinectomy) use AD to boost one piece of equipment for the casting roll, and one for the drain roll.

Mh, its not explicitly defined whether you use a focus, fetish or talisman while spellcasting or not. If one cannot do anything other with a focus than activating and deactivating it, theres no way to get extra dices for Spellcasting with Analyze Device. Seems like the most elegant solution.



Its just the same in the German version and language.
German Wikipedia: "Der Begriff Gerät, allgemeiner auch Gerätschaft, steht in der deutschen Sprache als Oberbegriff für einen einzelnen räumlich abgegrenzten Gegenstand und/oder eine Gruppe von Gegenständen, mit denen etwas bearbeitet, hergestellt oder bewirkt werden kann."
Shadowrun 4.01D: "Das Subjekt kann den Zweck und die grundlegende Handhabung eines Gerätes oder Ausrüstungsgegenstandes innerhalb der Wahrnehmungsreichweite analysieren."

A sword is a device because it has a specific purpose. And it definitively is equipment.

Want another example? I know that plowshares are no "Elektrogeräte" (electrical devices) but they are "landwirtschaftliche Geräte" (agricultural devices). In game terms: Not every device needs a Device Rating.

Uhm, that is a reasonable opinion, too... but I think, its not relevant what is meant by the word "device" in game terms, so lets concentrate on the "piece of equipment".



Thats just what I said in my first post. As a solution, we could say that the spell works only on equipment which you use actively. So you could AD binoculars but no combat drugs. The spell wont work on foci if we say that they are used passively. You only have to turn them on (activate them) and theyll do the rest (enhancing your magic).

No having a device rating, at least in theory, is necessary and sufficient to make something a device. A spell as a purposely crafted construct of mana fits the real definition of device, but that doesn't make device by the rules

Can't it have a subject who is not the casting mage and then allow THEM to tell what a magical item does?

Imo that would require another spell (or simply an Assensing action). AD only tells you how to use s.t. but not what you can use it for.



Try Analyze Magic for substituting the Assensing skill if you dont want to buy it.
For percieving astrally check out Astral Clairvoyance which is an astral version of Clairvoyance with all pros and cons (moving visual point but not useable for targeting). You may instead either buy the adept power for percieving astrally or design a new spell, i.e. one which allows you targeting but not moving your point of view.



Maybe, maybe not. Doesnt make any difference imo, because you cant use bonus dices for an already casted spell. If you cast the spell again, it would be an entirely new mana construct. ADing a spell wont help you more than ADing an ashtray.



It can have another subject than the mage but imo it doesnt reveal what the device does, as stated before.

You do use the focus while casting the spell. The problem is, there is no test to use the focus, only to cast the spell.

Like I said, Analyze Device provides bonus dice on any test to use what you are analyzing. It will not work with spotting things with binoculars, because those provide vision magnification - no test involved. While they enhance your Perception, they are not actually part of it. The same goes for foci.

The key thing is to distinguish between using the object in question to perform an action, or using it to improve another action. Using the spell on a camera will improve the quality of any photographs you may take, but not any Perception tests being made through the camera.

Yes, okay, I wrote nonsense. Imo the question should be: Do you use it for the action?



What about close combat weapons? You do use them to improve your reach and damage, dont you? I dont think its possible to draw a clear line.
Actually most logics neither go well with the game mechanics nor function in rl. In rl the only logic Id recomment to trust in is fuzzy logic - and that wont fit in the SR rules. So we should stick to game terms instead of trying to use real world logics.

This is a meaning less distinction invented to support a rules interpretation.

@Stahlkörper, In rl yeah Wittgenstein all the way. In game though you have two choices. Stick to the RAW as litterally as you can and don't even think about making sense, and petition toturi to take you as a disciple. That or take the rules as a suggestion and wing it. Your totally right that trying to apply logic to the rules is sketchy at best.