So White Wolf has said the World of Darkness is coming to an end. Does anyone have any ideas as to how it'll happen and what will become of the games after its all over?

There have been hints that a new world of darkness will be in effect after this one finally ends (I am not impressed by their products so far, Lair of the Hidden and The Red SIgn left much to be desired).

In a way it depresses me to see it come to an end, but with the end of Wraith a two years ago, and the esoteric nature of some of their books ("Gilded Cage" and even "Havens of the Damned") meant they were running out of ideas. Also with the death of Ravnos, the End of the Ascension War, and Malfaes having shifted into the near umbra I began to wonder. To make me even more curious, the Demon storyline seems to be headed straight for the end, and I'm sure white-wolf had this planned with the release of Demon. It clearly is going to be the end.

What comes next, I haven't a clue, but I think white wolf turns out the most plot oriented games, so I look forward to whatever is next. As long as it's not d20 of course, since that seems to be the overriding trend in rpgs, and quite simply the white-wolf system is far simpler.

'plot-oriented games', to me, screams 'just write a damn novel'.

Eh... White Wolf's storyteller system is one of the worst systems in all of gaming. If not for the quality of writing and their near-monopoly on the subject matter, I couldn't imagine them doing as well as they have. The storyteller system is rife with holes, unbalanced, and spread across dozens of rulebooks. D20 is a *far* better system and I'd be happy to see it used by WWGS. There are better systems available, but d20 is one of the more balanced systems available and it leaves few holes.

Before the inevitable unknowing d20-basher goes off, remember that there are classless d20 systems, the d20 system does reward more than just combat, and roleplaying is a function of the players and GM, not of the ruleset. Basically, make sure you've read and understood the rules before you comment on them, because I, for one, will be happy to call you on your errors.

That said, White Wolf knew it had stagnated, but it's one of the only companies that had the will to kill off the entire setting and bring it to a canon close, rather than create spinoff after spinoff as they had or just letting the game disappear as others have. I'm impressed, anyway. I'm even more impressed that they'll be going to a single core rulebook in the future, rather than spreading them out among the entire line of books.

MFB, I have had exactly the same thought during various WW games.

~J

Granted, the only D20 book I own is Engel, and having only read through the "d20 rules" once, I only have a passing familiarity with them. But I have a great distaste for the system, to me it's overly complicated, and unessecarily so. Granted, the WoD system does have a few holes in it (especially in respects to combat being far less lethal because you always have a chance of doing "no damage") but besides this the system seems to be the most efficient to me because of the fact it's not watered down with pointless rules. If you can specify any problems in the system, I'm anxious to know, because I rarely here criticsm from other white wolf players.

Problems with the storyteller system...

Problem 1: Game Balance. Spending x points on one thing is never equal to spending x points on another in the storyteller system. In many cases, you'll get far more results out of buying a lower-level power of one sort than you can out of a higher-level power of the same sort, let alone those of different sorts. WWGS's designers are not good numbers people. They write good material, but they just don't balance the costs and benefits inherent in each attribute, skill, or power. To them, this doesn't matter (I demo'd for years on WWGS's original demo team and complained often about this). To many of their fans this doesn't matter and some of those embrace this imbalance as somehow enabling better roleplaying. WWGS fans tend to be artsy/angsty types with little ability or desire to look at balance issues. To me, it's a crucial part of system design, but it's been said that I have the soul of an accountant...

Problem 2: Rule Spread. Rules are spread out across dozens of books, creating problems with finding rules or even knowing they exist. This doesn't make things easier on anyone.

Problem 3: Power Structure. It's hard to know what each power requires and does in the storyteller system. Powers are rarely a logical flow from one effect to a greater effect of the exact same sort, but typically shift to entirely different effects within a very nebulous category. Each power has its own set of rules and exceptions and some of these will conflict. Some of their systems got better about this (Aeon, Exalted), but the problem is rampant in storyteller.

Problem 3: Compatability. What rules work for one storyteller game do not work with others. How do you deal with game crossovers? If you stick to one game, then you use the examples from the backs of the core book to allocate powers, but this isn't a good method for getting across the variety and scope of the other games' characters. If you try to mesh games, you run into a lot of compatability issues due to the power structure variability mentioned in problem 3. Hopefully the new rules will address this.

Problem 4: Vagueness. Often championed as a strength of the system, the storyteller system allows for a great degree of ST choice in assigning difficulties to any given action. In some ways this is good, but "fast and loose"is not a good way to bring people into a game. If a gamers from group 1 moves and joins group 2, he can expect an entirely different difficulty scheme and it'll be well within the rules for the STs to have these differing schemes. Players like to know what they need to get a given goal accomplished. If the requirements change while the goal and circumstances remain the same, then few players are going to be happy.

Problem 5: Powergaming. Whoever thinks d20 is the haven for powergamers never picked up a WWGS book. In d20, the best you can hope for is a +6 to hit and +5 to damage (20 STR with weapon focus) and that character could well be useless outside of melee combat, especially if using the 25-point buy system, which d20 is based around. Any starting storyteller character can throw dozens of dice for a given action with a few quick choices, not unlike in SR, and still remain viable in other areas. Specializing is easy, especially at the start of the game. Drop a few dots into influences, contacts, and/or followers and you can have yourself a horde of lackeys and a finger in every pie. The storyteller system is a nightmare

My two favorite systems are HERO 5th edition and the old "Cinemaction" system that was used in the original Hong Kong Action Theater game. HERO 5th has the best balance of any system I've ever seen and it does a great job of plugging holes. Cinemaction is also balanced, but it escapes holes by offering a very fluid structure. Thanks to game structure, powergaming is difficult in both. If a GM allows an "open" game in HERO 5th, things can get really nasty, but the simple limits suggested for each type of campaign in the core book will keep things sane. If you haven't looked at either (and the latter will be very hard to find now), then I recommend giving them a look.

I said above that RP is a function of the players and GM, not of the game system. I was (somewhat) wrong there. A bad system can take away from RP, because bad results will turn up more often and impede gameplay, skewing the execution of the characters abilities and making them more or less likely to succeed or fail than they should given the circumstances. A good system will apply the circumstances of a situation to the abilities of the characters in question and come up with an appropriate resolution more often than not. Successes-based systems (e.g. SR & ST) work wonderfully when huge die pools are involved and do worse the smaller the die pools get - overwhelming successes become more common, as do horrible failures. ST typically has smaller die pools than SR and it uses a success-modifier instead of a TN modifier in most cases, resulting in even more skewed results.

Hmm, what will the new World of Darkness be like?

Coming soon: Gingerbread man, the Running

Money: the Burning

I am thinking Ancient History's prediction will be more true than anyone will care to admit.

I know that White Wolf is very interested in the d20 system. They are currently 'in charge' of the entire Ravenloft campaign setting for D&D. What they have done with it is awesome, so I have no complaints. I think they also operate under the Swords and Sorcery brand name, which would mean they are THE third party games supplement for the d20 system.

AH made a teensy little mistake.

Monkey, the Burning.
'Nuff said.

~J

Also, me inclusive, most white wolf fans don't seem to like the d20 system very much. It's a different market, I believe. They've recently announced they would be releasing Trinity and Abberant under d20, and that's been met with quite a bit of protest, at least from what I've read online.

Oh, I am not saying they are dropping everything and going to d20, but right now they are trying to tap into the market. One thing D&D knows how to do is sell books, and White Wolf would be damned fools not to try to take advantage of it. I hate the level-based aspects of the d20 system. Never liked levels.

The trick will be whether or not they keep the old rules in addition to making a set for the d20 system. They could have two gaming systems for one game and just keep the storylines identical. That way d20 players would migrate over, but the die-hard anti-d20 crowd could still play as part of the world. Don't know if the overhead would be worth the expense, though. We will see.

I think the path they are on now is fine, they publish a few d20 books, but the majority of their stuff is d10, where most of there fan base lies. I do think it is kind of silly for them to try and get into the d20 system though, because as far as I know the only company they trail is WotC in RPG sales. I mean, what more could they want? Complete and total control of the universe?

Bwdemon, im not gonna qoute thats to much info hehehe.

I agree. WoD has lots of holes. But with a good gm and some good players it can all be over looked, to an extent.

The system is playable, and I havnt had to many problems with it, exept for Vampire the Masq: 2nd ed where in its almost impossible to use a damn pistol but easy as cheese spray to use any thing bigger. 2nd ed seems to favor melee combat as opposed to ranged.

I have yet to find a serios problem with Exalted however.

The only real problem I have ever had with whitewolf d10 systems is the "ones take away the highest success" rule. Statistically speaking, if you need a number of 8 or 9 in order to succeed at something, it does not matter how many dice you get to roll, you will likely fail because the 10% likelihood of getting a 1 is fairly the same as the 20% or 30% chance of getting a 8/9 or higher. The number of dice you throw is irrelevant, unlike in SR, because statistically it still balances out to the same percentage chance of success unless you require a certain number of a given score. Increasing skills is less important than making difficulty numbers go down.

Unless they have corrected that problem in later versions, I still consider that system borked.

The White Wolf rule of 1 is the only problem I have with the system, so I do the rule of one like it is done in Shadowrun (ones do not take away successes, but all ones is still a botch).

As far as setting goes, I love the World of Darkness, it is my favorite setting outside of Shadowrun.

you want to know what the best system ever is? Deadlands. the 52-card init shuffle, the attribute die types, the hit location system--Deadlands is awesome.

I love Deadlands. I think they killed it by porting to D20 though. It just doesn't work for me in that format.

Deadlans is awsome i agree, plus its puts a whole new spin on game play.

what d20? it's not like they went d20 only, you dont have to use d20 system. its totaly optional. I think a decent amount of the books are double stat's, normal deadlands an d20. Arent they?

Lost colony is so i figure most others are.

And, Deadlands Reloaded will use PEG's Savage Worlds resolution mechanic; no d20 in sight.

White Wolf kills off the World of Darkness. I'm afraid I only have one thing to say to that.

YAY!

[RANT]
Sorry some neat ideas in those books but all the players of those systems who I've met seem to think that they're somehow the elite of the roleplaying community because they play a game which supposedly emphasises story telling over combat and character advancement (don't take this personally chances are I've never met you in person so this wasn't directed at you). For the record 90% of the games I've seen run in any of those systems play more like a bad superhero comic or a romance novel written by some sort social outcast than anything gothic, dark or horrific.[/RANT]

To those out there who enjoyed those games in whatever format they took I'm glad you enjoyed them. Personally though I couldn't wait to see them gone.

TBO

Alright alright, Here.

If you dont like the ones canceling out, (who does? I mean really it is lame) dont use it. So many people I know have thrown that rule out the window.

IF you dont like rolling your weapons damage, make it automatic damage, they say you can do it in the books even. And even if they didn't well, nothing is set in stone, and its not like the White Wolf Secret Police (WWSP) are going to get you.

In all games there are flaws. Doesnt matter if they are big or small, they all have a few.

Most can be ignored, worked around, or something. Some, just arent worth saving however. I wont mention the ones I think arent worth it, out of respect, I dont want to piss anyone off by ragging on there favorite games.

Co-palladium-ugh!
j/k

But over all, I hope they rework the WW system, but they should leave Exalted alone, its a good game, and no one I know has any complaints about it. plus, it throws out the ones cancell out success's rule. and 10's just count as 2 succes's.
(thats if your a solar, i dont know about the rest of the population)

anyway im done.

TBO, you seem to be confusing the end of WoD with the end of similar White Wolf settings.

~J

Trinity is similar to Exalted in some respects, and I assume that's where many of Exalteds rules come from. It doesn't have ones cancel success, and 7-9 count as one success universally, while 10's count as two. Also botches only occur when all dice are below seven, and you roll ones. So yeah, much better.

I actually do agree with the general mindset of White-Wolf players, because I still "suffer" from that delusion. I do actually consider myself "above" most other RPGers because I generally use a "superior" system. Infact, I was hesistant to move into any game system that uses a die with more then 10-sides, and lo and behold I haven't. Strange huh?

Why would dice with more than 10 sides be bad? Actually, by definition the larger your dice the (I had originally said better; what I mean to say is more statistically open) your system, because you can graduate probabilities more effectively. Just imagine what you could do if Shadowrun was on a d30 and you rerolled rolls of 26+.

~J

I have no real problems with the D20 system. I like D&D3, and wouldn't really want to see it using a different system than D20. I just think there are certain games that wouldn't (and don't) benefit from being adapted to D20. Shadowrun and Deadlands are two such games.

As much as I consider DnD 3.5ish twinkyhell, I have no open problems with the system.

Except for, y'know, the entire Open Gaming License crap they pulled and the barrage of crap that followed.

But the system itself is fine!

the OGL is the reason 3e works.

im not saying d20 isnt good, its just not my style is all.

I bet if I played more d20 baseed games I would like it but alas I do not.

Though it's kind of OT, it's been mentioned enough that I don't feel bad replying on it... Exalted definitely has its share of problems. It allows any starting character to throw dozens of dice into any given action, attack, or defense (actually, for two or three of the above if they play their cards right), turning them into a near-unstoppable beast. A starting character can also dump a pittance into backgrounds and come out the leader of an army of (fairly powerful) lackies. So powergaming is a major problem. The logical flow of powers is much better than in the storyteller system, but they still vary greatly in their requirements. The rules are still spread out over several books and the cost/benefit of most things are unbalanced. It's better than WoD, but it isn't good.

TBO hit it on the nose with his characterization of the typical WoD gamer. WWGS exercised a certain amount of marketing genius by emphasizing roleplaying over anything else and basically calling anything other than WoD a cretin's game. Sheer...Marketing...GENIUS! This totally neglects the fact that you can thoroughly explore and enjoy any role/theme in any RPG, but no other game chose or cared to defend itself. I've seen plenty of players do it, though. Here's how the argument goes...

Player 1: "The storyteller game system sucks"
Player 2: "WoD isn't about the game system, though, it's about roleplaying"
Player 1: "Would it be any less about roleplaying if it had a good game system?"
Player 2: "..."

WoD did a great job of getting a certain group of gamers to look down their noses at other gamers for no other reason than that WWGS said they should. It was brilliant, it worked, and it's still working to this day. WoD gamers aren't better roleplayers, less combat-oriented, or lesser powergamers than any other gamers out there - they've just been told they are by the game they play.

Yes, but my point is that the same players are now going to be equally elitist about the new WW games, and are going to be calling themselves WoD "veterans" or somesuch.

~J, demonstrating his nigh-infinitely low opinion of most of humanity