One of my players (playing a Spider shaman) just initiated for the first time, choosing Centering as their metamagic technique. When I asked about their Centering technique, they replied, "Was thinking meditation based on the magic knowledge skill (so I'm picturing in my head something like what goes on for when the main character from "A Good Doctor" thinks medical stuff".

This seems like it's against the spirit of the game to me, even though meditation is explicitly mentioned as a possible technique in MitS. MitS also says, "The initiate must be able to perform the creative skill freely. They cannot use dance to center if tied up or unable to walk, for example, or use singing or spoken words if gagged." Under what circumstances would a shaman be unable to meditate?

Noise
Nauseating background count
Subjection to beating by a troll
Fear (maybe as in Combat Paralysis?)
Someone squishing a spider in their presence
.
.
.
They might have to do some kind of test to overcome the distraction, like a Willpower check or something.

Would agree with all the examples @Pbangarth said.

Loud TV / Trideo / Radio in the background, noisy people, thumping bass, driving off-road, being in pain...

My "go to" for stuff like this is to think... what would distract me from doing mental arithmetic beyond a basic level? If I was trying to work out some kind of mental puzzle sat still in a chair at a desk in a quiet office - sure, no problem. Could I do the same thing so easily why climbing a staircase on the underground, while impatient people push past me? Or I was being shaken up and down as my car was driving off-road and hammering the suspension? Or if I was in a disco and the bass was making my chest vibrate and the strobe was in my face...

And just assign a situational modifier based on the circumstances, as you see fit at the time.

Base centering test =4s.
Trying to meditate while walking alongside a busy road, surrounded by people chattering = 5s
Trying to meditate while sitting in a car driving over uneven terrain and being shaken = 6s
Trying to mediate while strapped into a seat on a jet pulling hard turns through a thunderstorm while the passengers next to you are screaming for a deity to save them = 8s...

As long as they are paying for the Centring Skill and the Creative Skill, and it's not "Zen and the art of shooting really good", I think it's Ok.

When I read "Centering munchkinry" I thought you were referring to how:

• in the base book, you cannot use Conjuring while Astrally present, due to Exclusive Actions
• in MitS, Centring requires you to be Astrally present, overriding the base rule
• while Astrally present, you have access to your Astral Pool for tests that are not Magical Skills tests
• even if you only ever have Centring 1 and Creative skill 1, adding the Astral Pool to the Drain Test is the real benefit to Centring

Remember, a shaman gets their Mentor Totem Advantage applied to both Summoning (SR3.186) and Drain Resistance (SR3.187) tests.

I think some GMs might think actually playing using the mechanical benefits described in the rules would be munchkinny, but I was surprised to see Meditation was the point of contention.


On a similar track, we see that Elemental Manipulation spells have notably higher Drain than Combat spells, and are treated like normal ranged attacks (SR3.109) and we see they are an explicit usecase for adding Combat Pool (SR3.44): yet I know some GMs take the position that actually using Combat Pool for Elemental Manipulations is munchkinny; they would allow only Spell Pool.

Damn. And I thought I was a min-maxer, but I had not noticed that. Gonna rethink some stuff.

1) You can perfectly use conjuring while astrally present. What you are refering to is astrally projecting, which is an exclusive action. Astrally perceiving (which triggers your astral presence) is not an exclusive action.

2) Centering is an active magical skill. So no access to astral pool with it.

Concerning the combat pool and elemental manipulation spells, it's probably worth it to use the complete citation:



It is really really ambiguous to decide if you can use it or not with elemental manipulations, even if I'd allow it happily in my game. But a GM who says no has a really good case.

Summoning is an Exclusive Action in the table on SR3.162.

It is not unusual to consider Astral Perception to fall within the prohibition on SR3.160 "cannot be performed while using any other magical skill or maintaining any other magical ability."

Mundane ghoul and shapeshifter characters are naturally Dual Natured and "continuous Astral Perception is normal and natural for them." (SR3.260) A naturally Dual Natured character who is also Awakened with the Conjuring Skill can add their Astral Pool to Drain tests already. That edge case aside, Centring unlocks this combo for Awakened Conjurers who are not naturally Dual Natured. A Magician or an Adept who has obtained Astral Perception by virtue of a non-zero Magic attribute has "access to various magical skills and abilities." (SR3.158) Page 171 further clarifies that Astral Perception is an ability.

If you are arguing that Astral Perception is magical, and is an ability, but it is not a magical ability and therefore can coexist with Exclusive Actions including Summoning, then I don't agree with that interpretation.

While that's true, it's a non-sequitur, unrelated to the point I made.


I think it is really really unambiguous that when casting Elemental Manipulation spells, "these spells are treated like normal ranged attacks (SR3.109) using Sorcery as the Ranged Combat Skill." (SR3.196, SR3.183) "The attacker makes his or her Success Test using the appropriate Combat Skill, modified by dice from the character's Combat Pool." (SR3.109) "A player can only use Combat Pool dice to augment (...) magic-related tests in the case of elemental manipulation spells." (SR3.44) "Spell Pool dice may be added as normal." (SR3.183) Therefore when casting Elemental Manipulation spells, the magician can apply their Combat Pool (up to their Sorcery rating) to the casting test and then apply their Spell Pool (and Astral Pool) to the Drain Test.

I agree that when targeted by Elemental Manipulation spells, one can use Combat Pool to Dodge, and in that circumstance, the extra sentence you added after my quote supports that scenario. But that is again a non-sequitur, unrelated to the point I made.

My point was that some GMs are uncomfortable with Combat Pool adding to casting and Spell Pool adding to Drain test for the same spell. EleManips are effectively a LoS-range gun which fires (using Combat Pool as normal) ammunition which costs a Drain test (using Spell Pool) instead of costing Nuyen, has no Recoil and no Smartlink bonus, and mandated Priority A in chargen. For some GMs, that's a reasonable price to pay for the power; for others, it's munchy. That's all.

Centering is just generally weird and I suspect that even the writers didn’t have a clear idea of what they wanted to do with it. They have singing, dancing, chanting ancient languages, or gesticulating as options but any of these fit into one Free Action. They give a list of artistic skills that have obvious drawbacks—making identifiable motions, needing to be unrestrained, needing to make noise—and then they throw Meditation into the mix without any attempt to balance it with the rest, not even a line about needing to assume a ritual meditation position or something, leading to the conclusion that it’s a purely internal activity.

I suppose the best way to make sense of the strange discussion around banning Zen Marksmanship (you can’t attack an opponent with a Free Action!) might be to assume that they expect you to Use Skill as a Complex Action in preparation for the centering test and you just don’t make the Centering Test until you spend the Free Action on the pass you perform the activity you’re Centering for?

In any event, I historically have not worried too much about it—Centering uses the same TN as the base test and works as complementary dice so it’s pretty bad if you decide to be a stickler for the possible restrictions. The main exception is high-grade initiates centering against penalties since they get to subtract their Initiate Grade from the TN, but not many games yield enough karma for that to be an issue so it’s probably best to evaluate the applicability of that one yourself.

~J

Astral perception is not an ability that you maintain, that is my point. You switch it on or off, and that's it. You don't maintain it, there are no modifiers to maintaining it such as for sustained spell. This is why they take the time to remind you that in the case of astral projection: "Remaining in astral form requires no effort, but is considered a magical activity, and so precludes any Exclusive Actions while you are astrally projecting." (BBB p. 172).

The fact that you can use centering for conjuring quite demonstrates that's right. Casting a ritual spell is also an exclusive action, and requires everyone to be astrally perceiving.

Concerning the astral pool, you can get it with any initiation, so there was no link with centering from the start.

Concerning elemental manipulation and combat pool, as I said, I sustain the same interpretation as you, which I think is RAW. But many will argue it's not RAI, and frankly I can understand them. That's all. This would be really unambiguous if they had just written that you had access to your combat pool as normal.



Same, it takes a really high initiate to start having a real impact of the game, and by the time it happens, I'm pretty okay with anything them being able to use a not very taxing artistic skill… If you went through 4 intiiations, with all the expended karma, you should be able to use magic strongly…

I feel like invoking, shielding, or masking have been much more attractive to PCs in my game.

When it comes to Actions, switching on and off Astral Perception uses a similar structure to switching on and off Astral Projection: but you are right that the actual word "maintain" isn't used for Astral Perception. However an ongoing activity is indicated by the continuous verb "using": Interestingly that TN +2 penalty is similar to Sustaining a spell:

But that's a result of the explicit exception introduced in the mechanic of Centring:

Each Initiation raises Grade, and Astral Pool is equal to Grade (MitS.58). The benefit Centring brings is making Astral Perception compatible with Exclusive Actions, which means Astral Pool can be used for Drain Resistance tests. This is particularly valuable when trying several times to cast into a Sustaining Focus (which is an Exclusive Action (SR3.190)) a buff with a difficult Drain Code you want all the bonus dice to help with: and likewise Summoning which is an Exclusive Action (SR3.162, SR3.189).

All that said, if your argument is that a magician is described as being distracted by using the Astral Perception ability rather than by maintaining it and thereby it isn't the specific formulation: because it is instead using an ability then I don't agree with that interpretation, but you may well be right.

You didn't comment on the ritual sorcery if I'm not mistaken: what is your rationalization for that?

The penalty you mention is for mundane task because you're superimposing the astral world in your field of vision. It is not because of any effort in maintaining this magical activity.



No, it doesn't mention any thing about astral perception. Only about its compatibility with exclusive actions.

The character is neither using astral perception (because it's not a skill) nor maintaining it because it's an on-off switch. Either you perceive, either you don't, but there's no effort in maintaining it. This is why they specify that astral projection is an activity you maintain despite making no efforts.

Re the astral pool: you can use it for any test when astrally perceiving. Includes drain test on exclusive actions for me. Astral pool is not a magical skill you use or ability you maintain. Can you clarify what you mean here?