Hey folks.... SSG gives rules for fabricating certified credstick nuyen. I'm thinking about putting together a professional counterfeiter character. I'm hoping you might know some equipment in the books that would help....

The biggest issue, all around, is target numbers. Target numbers for counterfeiting are in the 12 to 18 range, depending on the specific thing.

For example, to hack open a certified credstick, counterfeit funds, and pass them off, the following is required:

Electronics B/R (12) test
Computer (Programming) (12) test

That's the basics, but then you need to get the counterfeit funds to pass a credstick reader. You can make an opposed test based on Computer successes above vs. the credstick reader rating, but if you want to guarantee it (and I do), you need to hack the reader. There are two approaches -- Matrix and physical. Matrix is pretty hard (Rating 12 Pavlov data bomb + Rating 18 Scramble IC), and is probably embedded deep in a hard red host, under a glacial security tier.

Alternatively, physical approach requires:

Electronics B/R (18) test to open the case
Computer (Decyption) (18) test to access it


So the question is, what can we do to lower these TNs?

Aptitude is one obvious choice, probably applied to Electronics B/R (since Aptitude: Computer is unacceptable in a lot of circles). Microtronics goggles, I think, are -2 to TN also.

On the Computer tests, a Counterfeit utility reduces the Counterfeit test, and then a Decryption box reduces the decrypt test on the credstick reader. But as a starting character, you can only get those at Rating 6 each max, right?

So now we're down to:

Counterfeiting tests are tough but not so bad with skills of 6...
Electronics (B/R) 9
Computer (Programming) 6

Credstick reader compromising tests...
Electronics (B/R) 15
Computer (Decrypt) 12

Ouch!! Can we do anything else to bring those TNs down??

--K

Can't think of any modifiers but one piece of cyberware gives a 'Task Pool' of extra dice that might be useful. The encephalon I think but maybe not (my books are elsewhere).

Will using better-than-necessary tools lower the target numbers or am I thinking of something else?
... Actually I do have that book on hand and I was thinking of something else: -1 T# for 'Superior Conditions' in Build/Repair Tests (SR3, p95). It doesn't elaborate on what that means however.

You could choose a counterfeiting adept (extra 6 in both skills), and/or get some good cyber and bio:

Encephalon, Math CPU (maybe)
Cerebral Booster (level 2), Mnemonic Enhancer (cheaper skill boosts), Articulation

I don't immediately know of anything that will reduce the TNs, but the above options will get you extra dice (some are debateable)

Do superior tools and conditions help... like using a facility when you just needed a shop?

I hear that, but I'm thinking a career counterfeiter. It wouldn't work out to have to compromise someone at a new bank every week.

That said, thinking about this last night, I came up with something strange.

It seems like one can get the following at character gen:

Skillwires 6
Chipjack x 2
Chipjack Expert Driver 6 x 2

That combination (which is expensive -- the skillwires for 2 rating 6 general skills are 648,000 ) gives you 12 dice to roll for the 2 skills you choose (in this case, Computer and Electronics B/R). There's no way you could roll 12 dice under any natural skill circumstance at character gen, that I can think of.

So why would you bother with natural skill? Not only that, a Rating 6 activesoft is only 10,800 , which is cheap if you are spending say 100K on skills. You could have 10 active skills with 12 dice to roll for each. That seems pretty excessive.

Other thoughts...
Do you think Enhanced Articulation applies to chipped skills?
Do you think Edge:Aptitude applies to chipped skills? If not, what if you have the DIMAP option from Cannon Companion?

--K

There are some limits to chipped skills, and some lovely ways to fuck with players that abuse them.

Fill me in on the "disadvantages to chipped skill"... what are the specifics? Or post a link thread if this has already been discussed somewhere...

--K

For one, the CED only works on chips in the chipjack in question, so you would have to use one skill, then change chips then use the next. I dont know if thats allowed on that test. No edges or normal pools are used with a chip. Its recorded. No bonus from artwinkulation, no bonus from task pool (other than the CED). All you get is the CED (which can be used to tasks only, dont know if the programming test counts)

As for twelve dice on a starting character. VCR3 anybody? Adept with 3 points of skill improvement and 3 combat pool dice. How about any spellslinger with spell pool. There are a lot of characters who have 12 dice for certain tests, because in general they need them.

Oh you cant use activesofts while rigging or decking (ho hum) so you are stuck on a tortise for the reprogramming test, so no hacking pool.

Here is another idea

CMT Avatar w/credstick reader
Aptitude: Electronics B/R
Microscopic vision
Encephalon 2
Math SPU 3
Artwinkulation
Electronics Shop
Reflex Recorder
Ceriberal Booster

Electronics Test: TN 9 on 11 dice so thats 2 sixes on average, and one follwoing three, 50/50 shot practically
Computer Test: TN 6 on 15 dice.. easy

next the cardreader
Electonics Test: TN 15 on 11 dice, not likely.. thats a 2sixes and a three on one die.
Computer Test:TN 12 on 15 dice, 50/50

So basically... its really hard to do, even with 12 dice from Skillwires and CED
At least thats my opinion

You might use Skillwires and the CEM to do the electonics bit and get tons of successes but it seems you need it only to break open the case, its the computer skill thats important, so id definatley concentrate on the decking and then leave the electronics to just good old fasioned knowhow.

Also you can have fun with defectice activesofts and such. Ive noticed skillwires characters seem to be a bit weak even with 12 dice to support them, but thats just me.

Major Disadvantage to chipped skills: Chipped skills don't provide dice pools. No Hacking pool for chipped computer skills.

Rating 10 CED = 10 Task Pool dice for tests with related skill.

Your Hack Pool is (INT+MPCP)/3, so in order to get a HP of 10 you'd need a Fairlight(MPCP=12) and 18 INT.

If you have a Rat 2 Encephalon and a Rat 3 Math SPU you'd only need an INT of 3.

Fairlight = 1.5 Million
Rat 2 Encephalon = 115,000 (or 230,000 )
Rat 3 Math SPU = 11,000

1.6+ Million eeeek!

For the equivalent essence loss of the encephalon and the SPU, your could get a rating 17 CED, for a cheap 85,000

Do you have enough dice?

EDIT- I nearly forgot, but thank the passions for caffiene.

If you could make all this money, why would you still Run?

The bored rich guy/girl complex?

For fun?

'cause counting money is monotonous?

LOL

The cool thing about all this is that no starting character can have them (Rating and Availability) and in very few games will you be able to afford the Street Index mark up.

Availability...
CED - Rating 17 (or anything else for that matter) - 4(!) (Yes I know you can't get that high a rating to start - Max would be 6)
Encephalon - Rating 2 - 6
Math SPU - Rating 3 - 6
Fairlight - 22

The funny thing is that with the right skills and a little luck you could create enough funny money to buy that Fairlight after your first game.....*joy*

And imagine all the karma you could buy with that!

LMAO

I kind of skimmed through this, but I didn't see the word Specialization in there once.

While in general some of these skills aren't used every day, for specific purposes specializations on characters like these would be quite useful. Look, it's another free die that somebody forgot to mention.

It took the decker in my game 5 oh so real years to get his hands on one, and only after I had put the group through absolute hell (well close enough ).

Thanks, guys, for the brainstorming. I can see that, yeah, it's pretty tough for a starting character to be able to hack the credstick reader. A starting character can do a good job making counterfeit funds and hacking the credstick itself, but he has to deal with the perils of the funds maybe or maybe not clearing the readers. Once he gets really, really good down the road, he can start hacking the readers themselves, or he can save his big sticks until he gets lucky on one.

Wouldn't that be funny? "I've got a million nuyen here in counterfeit certified cred, and all I've gotta do is keep hacking these damn boxes until I finally get through one... I'm sure I can hack the next one!!"

--K

Well if players are allowed to make money in this fashion I can see the game going down hill really fast. One good score and the runners are on easy street finding friends all over wanting a share of the cred...

One would have to wonder just how to balance this. I only found this thread as one of my players is trying to go for the Bill Gates bank roll... Very game breraking to a point...

Have the IRS crack down on 'em.

It's not as game-breaking as it sounds. Aside from the insane target numbers and the relatively few ways to reduce them, the base time for creating counterfeit funds in 1 minute per nuyen. Even if you designed some super-slick Counterfeit+DINAB smart frame to rock the nuyen for you all night long, there are only 525,600 minutes in a year. Even if your smart frame is slick enough to score a couple of successes consistently against TN 12+ (which is really the outer edge of plausibility), you're still pulling down only a million nuyen annually or so. That's not even enough to maintain a Luxury lifestyle, let alone buy all the cyber, bio, and Matrix gear a person might like. It's a good retirement income, for sure, but it's not going to let you change the game world by buying a corp or anything. And realistically, those are generous numbers I gave. You're more likely to run about 100K a year even if you stay busy with it full-time.

Ancient History's comment about the IRS is certainly accurate, though, if it were to become a problem.

It's interesting to note that there are darn few counterfeiters in the real world. It's much easier and more lucrative to sell drugs, and those are prosecuted less vigorously than counterfeiting.

I still thought it would be a fun character concept, though.

--K

haha, don't get me started on the drug business in SR. If there was a limitless market the is the potential of making billions a month. Good thing there is a nice rivalry there.

Here's an important question: when you make the test to create a decent rating on a credstick, does the test automatically mean that you have 'burned' the credstick already, or do you get to retest until you get the result you want? If the latter is true, then all it takes is time and effort to make a decent credstick (though not all 'runners are going to have such time on their hands).

I would say that, since the SSG lists credsticks/SINs with Flaws, and describes them as poor results, that you get one test (barring spending Karma).

It has been a while since I read the rules on it. I thought that when you created the fake ID you didn't know exactly how well you did until you tested it. The trick is you have to test it on a credstick reader hooked to the Matrix, and unless you have a private reader you will have to go to a store and take a chance. And stealing a reader is pretty hard also, I think it said if it loses its signal and if fails to reconnect it starts putting a theft call, so when you do hook it up it calls the cops with it location. So if I remember correctly trying to get the best results on the credstick forging test may look weird at best and a felony at worst.

Has everyone on this thread (which I know was started a good while ago) found the errata for CEDs with the max ratings? Just thought I'd mention it in case they haven't.

As written in the Sprawl Survival Guide any test that is failed while hacking credsticks "burns out" the stick as anti-tamper circuitry engages and nukes it, whilst probably sending a "Come pick up this loser" via the beacon.

I think we're forgetting the purpose of the tiered credstick system (and credsticks in general) is to make counterfeiting more trouble than it's worth. The initial investment alone would take YEARS to fabricate. It would be faster and less difficult to blackmail or ransom somebody. If you have the skills neccesary to successfully counterfeit credsticks, you're in a position to make enough cash not to need to bother.

Won't Enhanced Articulation help? 1 extra die to your technical and B/R rolls could help a lot.

have you looked at the target numbers? It's not worth it at all.

As a gamemaster, if one of my players tried to use Enhanced Articulation on something like Electronics, Computers, or their B/R skills, I'd probably beat them until they liked it and then stop beating them. I know a lot of double jointed people, it doesn't make them any better at building computers.

I like the idea of a counterfeiter character, though. I don't think it would be that unbalancing for a Shadowrun group, at least until the character got REALLY good at what he/she does. Reading through the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life, it says counterfeiters have world-wide syndicates that do that sort of thing. They have to have deckers to do all the nasty computer work, but they also have to have people doing the blackmail to get security codes from banks, and get access to valid identities. This could just include getting someone at the DMV to not ask too many questions when they take your picture (though a high enough level credstick to be worth it would require probably 5 or more types of identification), or it COULD mean something a lot worse, like blackmailing a millionaire to give you his infant daughter's birth certificate (you probably would want a new one so that you could get away with having someone else's picture tied to it...but then that means that the investment will take years and years to pay off). And between the deckers, blackmailers, thugs (because even if you're not physically coercing people, you're still going to need toughs to keep the pigs at bay and keep other organized crime from muscling you into cutting them in on the action), and god knows what other types of sleazebags, there would have to be a LOT of people in this sort of operation. Totally ignoring feasible numbers, let's just say that I have an operaton making 300 million nuyen a year. If I have to pay off an organization of 6,000 people, plus pay for equipment, plus make a lot of pay-offs, plus pay legal fees (because with that many people, SOMEONE's going to get pinched), I've got one heck of an overhead. I'm not going to figure out the exact specifics of the end number because my math SPU is broken, but you get where I'm going with this.

The way I would envision a counterfeiter character is this: Forget trying to be on top of the electronics and decking game. Go for a truckload of social skills and contacts. Any operation big enough to pull it off isn't going to make a decker the leader, anyway. Think about it--you're a nerd that just got a bunch of people that are bigger and more socially graceful than you together in the same room. Odds are that they'll let you walk out with a bunch of nuyen, because you can do something that they don't understand. But they won't make you the leader, and they won't let you take away a leader's share. That's going to go to someone with the social and organizational skills needed to keep a band of criminals together.

enhanced articulation does help with microtronics type skill tests if I remember the rules correctly. It enables more precise movements etc etc.

Yeah, Enhanced Articulation does by the rules help with those B/R tests and any other physical activity. Plus, it gets rid of arthritis! I can see Enhanced Articulation becoming quite a standard procedure at some point just because of the effects on arthritis and other possible health benefits. Plus your athletes would love it, but I digress.

Of course, anyone is free to house rule enahanced articulation to not be quite so all encompassing if they so desire.

In addition to the adept improved ability or tools route, you may also be able to use a couple of edges from The Shadowrun Companion. Namely, skill competence which decreases the TNs for a related activity by 1 (which is awesome for a 4 pt. edge) and then I think there might be some Technical/Matrix Operation edges that *may* apply. I don't really deal with the matrix much but have your key ability maxed, with skill improvement, with great tools, with that edge will all help.

Chipjack expert drivers have a max rating of 3, so an adept with improved ability could still beat that. However, you can change chips between the br test and the decrypting test, since there is nothing stopping you from stopping a few seconds to switch chips and let pools refresh. Math SPU would definately provide complimentary dice, since encryption is almost entirely math, revolving around factoring humungous numbers. Microscopic vision would help with the br test, as would enhanced articulation. An encephalon could give you a couple more task pool dice. Using a shop when you only need a kit reduces the br target number by another point.

The major sticking point is the need for an uber powerful counterfitting program. It would pretty much half to be coded by you, since you can only buy up to rating 6 at chargen, and buying it later on would cost an assload. Not to mention your MPCP rating has to be as high as the rating of the program. This pretty much requires you to be a decker with a home made deck and program to effectively counterfeit.

Besides, forging documents is way more useful that counterfeiting. If making fake money was easy, we would all be doing that, instead of shadowrunning.

be an adept just think(centering)

Forging cred will never be worth it in SR, nor should it. Far bigger fish than you have an interest in maintaining the bottom line.

If you get paid 5,000 to burn a family to death in their house, you get lone star, and maybe some people hired by the family of the family after you.

You pass 5,000 of fake cred, and congrats, dude, the corporate cort, whoever you ripped of with the fake cred, and the IRS are on your ass.

What's more you are a lot more likely to pass your "burn the family to death" roll than your "counterfeit cred" roll, and failing the "burn the family to death roll will get less heat on you than failing your "counterfeit cred" roll.

To be honest you could probably make more cred, a hell of a lot safer. using that level of skill to build custom electronics for people.

If you really want to be a forger, forge art or paydata. At least only the people you rip off and the star get involved in that sort of thing...