Yeah, the nuke option didn't work so well in Chicago. One should also understand that, given the general wind direction in North America, the fallout from nuking native enclaves all over the West would poison the populous East as well. This would be MAD with a bonus to NAN. "Sure you can nuke us. But you die, too. We blast you, it stays where we put it."

Not really, volcanic fallout destroys land very effectively too. Also I wouldn't use nukes, I'd use chemical weapons. You can deploy ones which are short lived, and very lethal in the AOE. If they self oxidize in <5min the wind can't make them drift all that far, and they tend to be far better at not rendering large tracts of land uninhabitable.

Water to blood, raining frogs, swarms of locusts, and days of darkness so deep that it can be physically felt...

Got to love the classic "Superweapons".

You forgot the slaughter of the eldest child of places where there isn't lamb's blood sprayed on the door.

Moses's Sugar Deity was kind of a dick

This is true, but one need only look at Hawaii to see how quickly land regenerates from volcanic destruction. In fact, volcanic soil is downright tasty to the right plants.

I wonder why chemical weapons weren't used in Chicago? And has anyone actually studied the long-term effects of those oxides?

Because the ones to kill dual-natured bugs hadn't been developed yet.

Look at Mount St. Helens and say that again.


Depends what they oxidate into.

Usually one doesn't hire as a face someone who speaks "with faltering lips" and has "never been eloquent,neither in the past nor since you spoke to your servant" or is "slow of speech and tongue".

No wonder he blew his negotiation roll.

Can I have Mount St. Helens national park say it for me?
http://www.mount.st.helens.national-park.com/hike.htm
"Hikers are treated to ever growing fields of wildflowers that grow in the nutrient rich volcanic soil."

Yep, 30 years after the blast. I was there ~ 12 years after, and it still looked like a nuke went off. Tree's snapped like toothpicks for miles from the crater.

edit, yep just checked google maps, the flood plain infront of the mountain still looks like a waste land.

You mean along the Toutle river where the still active* volcano is still dumping sediment and the Sediment Retention Structure is trying to reduce the problems caused by the still flowing sediment from messing with the Toutle and Cowlitz rivers?

*http://vimeo.com/1054666 <- time lapse video. Video doesn't start till 20 seconds in. Note that in Jan of 2008, the extrusion of new lava ceased, so, depending on volume and erosion, there is hope for the future of the "wasteland" area.

The "wasteland" that is a result of flooding is no indication that the soil lacks nutrients.

And I live in Oregon, so I can say this with authority- the area is growing back. Douglas Firs take a while to get to their full height, and with nobody to replant them, they had to naturally get blown back to the area around the mountain.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...years_later.jpg
2005- Johnston Ridge. See the trees there? Yes, the place isn't getting miraculously quick, but then again, compared to Hawaiian plants that are naturally able to regenerate quickly after pyroclastic flows, it's still going to look pretty wasted. But as you can see, the place is growing back.

You can't fight a gorilla army with nukes. But anyways...the destruction brought about by the great ghost dance was merely a warning shot....a little taste of the power the ghost dance had. If U.S. had refused to comply with the NAN's demands, Daniel Howling Coyote could have just had the earth swallow every single american city....there would be nothing left. And he definitely could deactivate a nuke mid-air. He didn't want to have to let it get to that point...but it's very clear that he could have if U.S. had not complied.

Gorilla Army? http://youbentmywookie.com/wookie/gallery/...lla_soldier.jpg

Excuse me ... guerrilla army lol

I don't have access to all of my books at the moment. How do we know that they (US/Canada) knew that Howling Coyote had the power to destroy all cities, neutralize nukes, etc.? Is this told to us in the fluff somewhere?

It was just too fun to resist. You're right, of course: can't nuke a guerilla force.

Why did the US not go in with Boots on the Ground though.

Just start shooting AmerInds.
Howling Coyote had basically declared genocide on Anglos, unless they vacated the land.

What in the US's 240 year history indicates they would just capitulate to a threat like that.

But then again, the UCAS thing had already happened by then.

Agreed. So, the NAN tries to move all the people who live there out. Now the NAN is facing a guerrilla army of people who don't want to go, who want to fight for their family's land.

And the air is filled with the cry of people yelling "Wolverines!"....

( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-712036695027727306# )

I don't understand why it's hard to comprehend that if some group of people proved to us that they had the power to control nature...(earthquakes, volcanic eruptions)...the U.S. and any other nation on earth would do as they said....they would evacuate the cities themselves with the national guard. If americans really felt patriotic they wouldn't allow their own personal feelings about keeping their own property cause the death of millions of their fellow citizens. I know everyone thinks that U.S. will always have it's "Independence Day" moments when faced with serious calamity....but when forced to chose between giving up some of their land, and total annihilation....humans tend to choose moving. Great ghost dance erupted several volcano's simultaneously....why do you insist that that is the limit of the power of the great ghost dance.....it's not even the the dance itself that was doing it....it was Gaea. U.S. simply saw who's side mother nature was on. American's already know subconsciously that they're not supposed to be on this land so that just did it....i'm sure most of the country did not have a death wish and the consensus was to evacuate large swaths of the already very sparsely populated West. Notice california didn't have to evacuate. What would make no sense would be for the U.S. to bring about it's complete distruction.

I'm sure people would form guerrilla armies to fight off invading forces...but this wasn't invading forces...this was a hostage situation....with most of the country being held hostage.

Most of that land isn't cities. It's not Boswash.

Can you provide examples of this?
Hamas: Generations later and still fighting.
American Indian Wars: 100+ years of warfare.

I'm stuck. Which humans choose moving before all the soldiers were dead and stayed peacefully?

Personally, I don't. I thought I've brought up the Yellowstone Caldera and the New Madrid Fault Zone already.

Huh? When did the U.S. start believing in Mother Nature? Whose side was Mother Nature on during Goblinization?

I'm not supposed to be here? Where AM I supposed to be? Is there some other land populated by the incredibly rich mixture of ancestry running through my veins? I can't even afford to travel to all the countries my ancestors are from.

Why not? Were they supposed to be there? Aren't they patriots? Why didn't they choose moving? Why don't your arguments apply to California? Personally, if I held the nation hostage, I'd take California over western Nebraska. Having camped in various parts of Wyoming in the late summer with my teeth chattering (Vedauwoo leaps to mind.), I don't want to think about living off that land during the winter. Seriously, I would have taken California, especially if I can keep the Earth from quaking.


And many of us are wondering why it didn't look like a Russian Opera House before it was over.

That's cause people are all gung-ho the Military can solve any problem. Look at sabs there and the "Boots on Ground" suggestion.

And Sabs, the UCAS didn't form until nearly twenty years afterward.

The more I think about it, the more I like the NAN being in California.

1) Tell everyone there's going to be an earthquake.
2) Create earthquake.
3) Tell them again.
4) Do it again.
5) Tell them you're giving them 1 week to move and then you're dropping it under the sea.
6) Wait a week and then drop it under the sea, nice and slow. See how long they can tread water.
7) Raise it again, have mother nature cleanse the land.
8) Profit.

Because Americans tend to be gung-ho military.. especially when people start threatening them.
Look at the number of Militia that exist today in specificaly those states that were cleared out for the NAN.

Sabs, not all Americans are gung-ho on the military, and by that I'm not implying that they would seek to disrespect the military, they just often don't have the same fetish for the military that others seem to have and view them realistically.

Militia are extremely fringe groups.

Not to mention many militias actively view the military as a "tool of the oppressive government" and though they revere service, they view the military as suspect.

Their view of what America is tends to be... interesting, as well. For quite a few of the ones I know, if NAN didn't bother to root them out of their mostly remote homes, and said "don't bother us, we won't bother you" I don't think they would think twice about agreeing to that.

How many Americans were against going into Afghanistan in 2002?
How many were /for/ it.
Most Americans don't like to be threatened.

Militias are fringe groups, but there are actually a fair number of them.. and they would not go quietly into the night and move out of their homes.

My bet is on many of the ones that were for it, denying it three times before the cock crows.

-----------

I think I have a new way of thinking about the NAN. My new belief is that the U.S was threatened. Both coasts and all the overpopulated areas cried "Take the midwest! Leave us alone!" and so the people of the midwest went to Coyote and said "What's the deal?" and he said "Don't sweat it. Keep the ranches and the farms. All we're doing is getting rid of California and the East Coast. We're just trying to get Washington out of our hair." and they said "No more listening to D.C? No more putting up with New York and California? It's a deal." Soon all the Californians that were turning the Colorado mountains into the new California were evacuated out and it was all business as usual.

Every now and then someone from upstate New York, or maybe even Delhi, figures it out and flees to the NAN. It's all kept very quiet.

They are positively dwarfed by the US National Guard reserve, which is just a branch of overall US military.

P.S. If you talked about the support for the Iraq invasion in regards to "gung-ho" that would make more sense, that fever had a lot of Fed politicians and papers banging the drums....and then later looking sheepish. On the other hand I'm not much for war, I'm not American, and I still came to concede at the time (and still see) Afghanistan as an unfortunate but ultimately prudent invasion.

See Suoq, THAT I could believe

Heh, that's pretty much how I have it in m games; with slightly different language used^^

I mean, what's a 'fair number'? By 'extremely fringe', I *meant* 'tiny' (also crazy, insignificant, etc.).

Roughly a quarter million..
I just don't think people are going to react to being threatened by terrorist acts with such non-chalence, and 'okay I'll join you'

One more of this shit by anyone, and this thread is finally closed.
4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any innapropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

How does it not pertain to the NAN formation and taking something like 1/2 of the US land mass?

except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun...

Hamas: Who do you think lived on the land which is now present day israel? Thousands of palestinian villages were razed and thousands and thousands of people were displaced and killed if they didn't leave. That's why there's more palestinian refugees outside of israel than live inside the palestinian territories inside of israel....

American Indians: have you ever heard of trail of tears??

Both those examples you gave are perfect analogies to what NAN did to the U.S....the only difference is that NAN didn't do it by ruthlessly slaughtering thousands.

Militia's would definitely go off quietly into the night. Because they are given a viable alternative....moving to the UCAS and living as full citizens...most likely getting a lot of disaster relief. All those militia's you see in michigan or in other parts of rural america are total pussies...as soon as you confronted them with any serious military resistance they'd piss their pants and go running....why? because they've lived a totally sheltered life and never gotten toughened up. They piss and moan about big government and then would freak out when the Xbox 360 stops working because the infrastructure is crumbling.

The only group that are serious force to be reckoned with that aren't scared of anything is the U.S. Marines....but they would have to obey orders and their commander in chief signed the treaty of denver in order to ensure the survival of the nation.

Inca
I think you got the thread locked.

it's locked? All i'm talking is about is why NAN taking over half the u.s. is just as plausible as anything else in SR.

Grinder's totally bluffing dude

In an attempt to avoid politics by not referencing them (my bad earlier), I'll try and focus on this correctly.

What you are saying is exactly why I have a hard time believing the NAN. "NAN didn't do it by ruthlessly slaughtering thousands" makes me wonder how they managed to do it without ruthlessly slaughtering thousands. In my experience, the thousands have to be slaughtered before the hundreds that are left pick up and go. I'm unable to think of an example where the people moved without being slaughtered first. Maybe there's an example out there but I can't think of it. (If someone can, PM me. It's not worth breaking the TOS about.) Now I can understand the NAN's lack of desire to slaughter. I find it commendable. But I have a hard time believing the people being kicked out took it so well.

The rest of your post, I'm not even going to respond to.

This is what leads me towards an interpretation of the NAN that doesn't involve a mass, one-way exodus of population. Because you're right, that would take a hell of a show of force. But I can see most Anglos leaving for friendlier territory more out of a desire to stay with like minded people and amongst a country that's going to treat them as first class citizens than out of fear of being killed outright, especially if there's spots opening up out east because of Eastern supporters of the NAN moving west (everybody from pro-Mohawk folks in Albany, to Nuyoricans and other Latinos on the coast and in Cali, to the newly meta in Atlanta just happy to head somewhere friendlier to them than the South). A major demographic rearrangement doesn't have to mean genocide and diaspora.

There are numerous examples where significant number of people pick up and leave because of a government change that's scary, or relatively small acts of violence convince a much larger number of people it's time to pick up and get out of Dodge before the real bullets start flying. There is a concentrating instinct/rationale, like a flock of sheep if you will, that happens where people under new governance by the Other Kind decide it's a good idea to regroup elsewhere [often with the intention of coming back].

Biblical earthshaking mojo might just be able to trigger that?

Also keep in mind that it wasn't a full purge of Whitey. That would be quite problematic given how diluted Native ancestry is in the US. It always came off to me as more like a cultural purge. Shut up, keep to yourself, and live under our rule and our laws with rough approximations of our values (accepting being not quite a citizen if you don't match some certain criteria) and you can stay. Otherwise you'll leave if you know what's good for you.

Exactly! I see this as being as much about how you act as how you look. Someone with blond hair and blue eyes who shows respect for the Native ways isn't going to have major problems.

Unless what they say about the effects of years of sniffing glue is true, I'm very confident there are canon references to the status of "non-citizens", including non-Natives living in Pueblo Corporate Council territory.

The 20,000 people that used to live in Alamos, New Mexico, very quietly disagree with that last part. They'd be louder about their disagreement, but they're all dead.


Way to keep politics out of it. Do you have some special version of selective color-blindness that leaves you incapable of seeing purple text, or something?

PEOPLE. PLEASE DON'T GET A 30+ PAGE LOCKED BY CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE FRIENDLY MODERATOR.

But then we're talking about who's defined as "Native". Again, I tend to interpret that, by 2070, as a label of culture rather than of ethnic background; all cultural Anglos might have restricted rights, reservations and whatnot, but that's not to say all non-ethnic-Amerinds have that status as a cultural Anglo. I imagine many won't.

edit:
I just don't see the US or Canada giving up that much territory under threat, ever, especially not without mobilizing everyone person of fighting age to try and keep it.