Most of my campaigns have been about running adventures for my players. Still, the most amazing role playing moments come when the players drive the plot by their own decisions.
Like trying to run over a cat-demon cult leader using an aging Folksvagen car, in a vampire game set in Berlin, or an elaborate scheme to drain a powerful vampire contact that caused my storyteller at the time to go
"you just drank my campaign".
Ahem, anyway. I was wondering if any of you, players or GMs, have experience with that kind of play. I need to get my players more motivated, thinking outside the box, somehow. As I see it, this is the perfect way to run a shadowrun campaign. It's not enough to get the players interested by using their background as story hooks, I actually have to get the players to enjoy it, like they used to sometimes.
Full Version: Player driven plot
The absolute best experience I've had with this was a 3.0 D&D game that ran for about 2-3 years, on and off. Its also my longest running campaign that never got rebooted, reset, or suffered form character rollover.
The principle characters included:
Along the way, they encountered a number of shorter term PCs (who came and went for various reasons). There was a wannabe Paladin who idolized Morgriffia and lept blindly into danger. A halfling warrior (thief/ranger) who has a venomous hatred of the undead. A "dragon hunter" con man who ended up getting in over his head. And so on.
Their one long-term NPC companion was a young Neutral Good bard. Bards, by the way, make a fantastic mouthpiece for the GM to give the players some clues, input, or whatever.
Durable magic items were exceedingly rare and potions pretty uncommon, but alchemical items were very, very common. By 8th level, I think each character had one permanent magic item.
The framework of the plot was:
The world has been (mostly) free from monsters for almost five hundred years, thanks in large part to the efforts of a group of powerful wizards that created several magical seals to keep evil at bay. A human empire has risen and spread across the land. The world had a strong leaning toward Good and Law (though not necessarily Lawful Good). There were communities of dwarfs, gnomes, elves, and halflings. Halflings were the most common and actively interacted with humans and lived in their communities. The others, not so much.
There were still evil-aligned communities in the world. Orcs, goblins, kobolds, and other existed, but has been pushed out beyond the fringes. Occasionally they would rally and try to attack the human kingdoms, but they never stood a chance.
A wizard named Margrave came on the scene. His family was old, powerful, and wealthy. He was thoroughly corrupt; Evil to the core. He killed his family and spent their fortune to attend one of the wizard colleges. He was expelled for conducting "unsavory experiments," but by then had stolen hundreds of maps and documents from the college's libraries. He spent years traveling from site to site, trying to unearth lore that should have stayed lost. Ultimately, Margrave began undoing the magical seals that were keeping the monsters (demons, devils, dragons, and so on) from entering the world, with the intent of usurping a certain demon lord and using its power to become a god.
After all that, the campaign began. Rumors were flying about monsters coming back to the world. Communities at the fringes of the empire being destroyed. The orcs and goblins rising up again. And so on. The empire was in chaos. Five hundred years of relative peace had softened empire's warriors, except for a few dedicated military orders.
The PCs forged a bond after traveling with a caravan and fighting off a bunch of ratmen. After that, I pretty much let the players go explore. I fed them leads and let them decide whether or not to pursue them. Toward the end, I made the mistake of feeding them a red herring and, unfortunately, they latched on to it and wouldn't let go. They veered sharply away from the final encounter and, try as I might, I couldn't get them back on track.
If you're still reading, my suggestion is to keep the red herrings to a minimum, especially the tempting ones. Or don't use them at all. Give yourself a reoccurring NPC to act as a mouthpiece. If you feed them multiple plots, have the plots at least vaguely sketched out ahead of time (unless you're really good at winging it).
-paws
The principle characters included:
- Morgriffia, a human Paladin of Pelor. She is the stern Paladin of sternness. And she'll cave if your skull with a warhammer if you give her any guff. She really wasn't as bloodthirsty as I make it should, nor as prick-ish, but she somehow developed a reputation because of her frequent use of Detect Evil. She was that close to being able to get a griffin as her mount when the campaign finally petered out.
- Nathanial, a Lawful Neutral human Wizard/Monk. This character had straight 14's, except for his Charisma of 10. The player decided he'd play the character as a total dick, which, compared to the other two Charisma-mongers in the group, he was. As an added point of tension, Nathanial was a "Gray" Necromancer, a wizard that studied the conditions of death and negative energy for the sake of knowledge, rather than raising armies of undead. Needless to say, he was often at odds with the Paladin
- Rolf, a Chaotic Good Cleric/Barbarian of Kord. He had the best stats ever (14's through 18's), except for his Intelligence, which was slightly below average. We decided he was chosen by Kord because Rolf reminded the god of him, when he was younger. (We played up the idea that Kord was this good-nature "great big jock" that somehow achieved god status.
Along the way, they encountered a number of shorter term PCs (who came and went for various reasons). There was a wannabe Paladin who idolized Morgriffia and lept blindly into danger. A halfling warrior (thief/ranger) who has a venomous hatred of the undead. A "dragon hunter" con man who ended up getting in over his head. And so on.
Their one long-term NPC companion was a young Neutral Good bard. Bards, by the way, make a fantastic mouthpiece for the GM to give the players some clues, input, or whatever.
Durable magic items were exceedingly rare and potions pretty uncommon, but alchemical items were very, very common. By 8th level, I think each character had one permanent magic item.
The framework of the plot was:
The world has been (mostly) free from monsters for almost five hundred years, thanks in large part to the efforts of a group of powerful wizards that created several magical seals to keep evil at bay. A human empire has risen and spread across the land. The world had a strong leaning toward Good and Law (though not necessarily Lawful Good). There were communities of dwarfs, gnomes, elves, and halflings. Halflings were the most common and actively interacted with humans and lived in their communities. The others, not so much.
There were still evil-aligned communities in the world. Orcs, goblins, kobolds, and other existed, but has been pushed out beyond the fringes. Occasionally they would rally and try to attack the human kingdoms, but they never stood a chance.
A wizard named Margrave came on the scene. His family was old, powerful, and wealthy. He was thoroughly corrupt; Evil to the core. He killed his family and spent their fortune to attend one of the wizard colleges. He was expelled for conducting "unsavory experiments," but by then had stolen hundreds of maps and documents from the college's libraries. He spent years traveling from site to site, trying to unearth lore that should have stayed lost. Ultimately, Margrave began undoing the magical seals that were keeping the monsters (demons, devils, dragons, and so on) from entering the world, with the intent of usurping a certain demon lord and using its power to become a god.
After all that, the campaign began. Rumors were flying about monsters coming back to the world. Communities at the fringes of the empire being destroyed. The orcs and goblins rising up again. And so on. The empire was in chaos. Five hundred years of relative peace had softened empire's warriors, except for a few dedicated military orders.
The PCs forged a bond after traveling with a caravan and fighting off a bunch of ratmen. After that, I pretty much let the players go explore. I fed them leads and let them decide whether or not to pursue them. Toward the end, I made the mistake of feeding them a red herring and, unfortunately, they latched on to it and wouldn't let go. They veered sharply away from the final encounter and, try as I might, I couldn't get them back on track.
If you're still reading, my suggestion is to keep the red herrings to a minimum, especially the tempting ones. Or don't use them at all. Give yourself a reoccurring NPC to act as a mouthpiece. If you feed them multiple plots, have the plots at least vaguely sketched out ahead of time (unless you're really good at winging it).
-paws
Shadowrun makes it really easy to get players to drive the plot. Normally, you have a contact or two that overlap with other players...if not, then I highly recommend doing so (in my latest campaign, the players are all a part of a corporate covert team that poses as part of the marketing team by day and all report to a single manager).
By setting it up this way, you can always feed the players leads and runs, but for me, its really important to pay attention to what the players are doing, talking about or wanting to do "later on". Make sure there are plenty of leads or other hooks available, and see what the players seems to bite on. Then, flesh that out more.
I agree, that trying to tie backgrounds doesn't always pan out. But if you are tying to things the players are currently involved in, I think they get motivated to go down those paths.
My best suggestion is to only really plan out enough for the next session. You can have other notes and outlines for other things going on, but focus your time on what the players are doing right now and the next session. That way you don't waste time detailing stuff the players never use.
The toughest part is the beginning, where the players might not have a ton of motivation...so just make sure you keep them busy on a run or something and pay attention to what they are doing and talking about.
By setting it up this way, you can always feed the players leads and runs, but for me, its really important to pay attention to what the players are doing, talking about or wanting to do "later on". Make sure there are plenty of leads or other hooks available, and see what the players seems to bite on. Then, flesh that out more.
I agree, that trying to tie backgrounds doesn't always pan out. But if you are tying to things the players are currently involved in, I think they get motivated to go down those paths.
My best suggestion is to only really plan out enough for the next session. You can have other notes and outlines for other things going on, but focus your time on what the players are doing right now and the next session. That way you don't waste time detailing stuff the players never use.
The toughest part is the beginning, where the players might not have a ton of motivation...so just make sure you keep them busy on a run or something and pay attention to what they are doing and talking about.
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Jul 10 2009, 10:13 AM) 
A "dragon hunter" con man who ended up getting in over his head.
I can assure you sir I have no idea of that which you speak. Tiberius was never "in over his head", that enchanted statue simply refused to fight honorably.
I still want a copy of that character sheet if you have it about btw...I'd love to have Tiberius "on file" in case of random pickup 3.0/3.5 game.
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Jul 10 2009, 10:13 AM)
Toward the end, I made the mistake of feeding them a red herring and, unfortunately, they latched on to it and wouldn't let go.
Mmmm, herring. Tastes like distraction and beatdown...
QUOTE (Kingboy @ Jul 10 2009, 11:16 AM)
I can assure you sir I have no idea of that which you speak. Tiberius was never "in over his head", that enchanted statue simply refused to fight honorably.
Riiiiight.
QUOTE
I still want a copy of that character sheet if you have it about btw...I'd love to have Tiberius "on file" in case of random pickup 3.0/3.5 game.
I know I have the character sheets around here somewhere. I really need to go through and organize all my old gaming stuff one of these days.
-paws
My players are pretty resistant to taking the reigns. Basically, I have to lure them in with plenty of dangling plot threads, wait for them to pick one they care about, and then run with that. It's a damningly inefficient way to get players to take control of a game, but when I've tried to be upfront about it ("This game is about whatever you as the players do.") it has meandered and petered and often ended in stalemate.
I think players get to that point in a couple different ways. I think they think it's a little rude to try to "hijack" a game, either from the GM or the other players, so they don't speak up. And a lot of the time, players get that way because they get beat down and told "no" so much they stop trying-- usually in groups they don't even play with anymore, but those behaviors remain.
I think players get to that point in a couple different ways. I think they think it's a little rude to try to "hijack" a game, either from the GM or the other players, so they don't speak up. And a lot of the time, players get that way because they get beat down and told "no" so much they stop trying-- usually in groups they don't even play with anymore, but those behaviors remain.
Something else to add...
I've found that some of the most pro-active players you can get are LARPers. In my case, everyone in the group had played in a Vampire LARP for a year or two, at least. There were sessions where I literally got to sit back and plot while the PCs interacted with each other. Some session involved no dice rolling, while others were large scale battles, devoid of RP.
Also...
A GM who wanted a player-driven, sandbox style game would be well served by keeping the game as close to street level as possible. Big payouts and long periods between job breeds laziness, IMO.
The almighty nuyen - and the lack thereof - seems like a viable way to motivate unmotivated players... without blatant railroading, that is. Keep them poor and looking for the next payout. If they don't get out and work, how are they going to upkeep their lifestyle? If they don't pay, they get evicted. (Be sure to go into detail about how much crappier their new digs are.) Or they get a visit from the local leg-breakers. Or whatever.
And if that doesn't work... I don't know what to tell you.
-paws
EDIT: Something else to consider is allowing PCs to do things between sessions. Emails are great for this, IMO.
I've found that some of the most pro-active players you can get are LARPers. In my case, everyone in the group had played in a Vampire LARP for a year or two, at least. There were sessions where I literally got to sit back and plot while the PCs interacted with each other. Some session involved no dice rolling, while others were large scale battles, devoid of RP.
Also...
A GM who wanted a player-driven, sandbox style game would be well served by keeping the game as close to street level as possible. Big payouts and long periods between job breeds laziness, IMO.
The almighty nuyen - and the lack thereof - seems like a viable way to motivate unmotivated players... without blatant railroading, that is. Keep them poor and looking for the next payout. If they don't get out and work, how are they going to upkeep their lifestyle? If they don't pay, they get evicted. (Be sure to go into detail about how much crappier their new digs are.) Or they get a visit from the local leg-breakers. Or whatever.
And if that doesn't work... I don't know what to tell you.
-paws
EDIT: Something else to consider is allowing PCs to do things between sessions. Emails are great for this, IMO.
My GM is running a player driven plot, for me and a friend of mine. Basically treats it like the Sega Genesis SR game. Go to random club or merc hangout, check leads, call contacts. My character's a troll Bounty Hunter type, and so looks up new "Missing Persons" often, which helps drive us forward. Our latest lead led us to a large scale casino, and my character's moderate addiction to gambling pretty much ground us to a standstill until my poor poor mental stats allow me to leave the table. He's made a good 400Â? 
out of sheer, dumb luck =p Our gm's having us actually play poker/blackjack with a deck of cards I happened to have on hand, and I make no claims whatsoever to be good at any of them. =p All in all though, it's dang fun.
He's also a big subscriber to the "Keep the bastards poor" school of SR. Our last job was a cheesy courier run, only one combat with a quintet of gangers trying to steal it, and it net me a profit of 10 because the guy we were delivering to happened to be in a club with a bouncer that was racist, that I had to bribe to get into. =p
out of sheer, dumb luck =p Our gm's having us actually play poker/blackjack with a deck of cards I happened to have on hand, and I make no claims whatsoever to be good at any of them. =p All in all though, it's dang fun. He's also a big subscriber to the "Keep the bastards poor" school of SR. Our last job was a cheesy courier run, only one combat with a quintet of gangers trying to steal it, and it net me a profit of 10
because the guy we were delivering to happened to be in a club with a bouncer that was racist, that I had to bribe to get into. =p
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