Quick clarification question for anyone who is familiar with mages (I apologize if this has been asked before, did a quick search and didn't find anything).

Basically, just trying to see if I understand the rules correctly for casting multiple spells...

Let's say I have a combat spellcasting dice pool of 17 - spellcasting skill 6, combat specialization (+2), effective magic of 3 (total 6, 3 put towards adept powers), power focus 4, and dragonslayer mentor spirit (+2).

If I wanted to cast 2 stunbolts in a single complex action, I could do so - putting 8 of the dice towards one spell, and 9 towards the other. Then I would resist drain twice (12) using my full drain pool for each.

If I had 2 IP's each combat turn, I could cast four stunbolts - two in each pass as above.

Am I understanding this correctly?

THanks for any information!

Yep, with one reminder: the drain for each spell is increased by +1 for each additional spell (+1 for two spells, +2 for three, etc.).

Heh..forgot about that!

Thanks for the reply!!

Dice Pool Modifiers are applied after the split. As such, your casting pool would be 5 / 4 (9 dice split), + 2 (Mentor Spirit) + 4 (Power Focus) + 2 (Specialization), for a total of 13 / 12.

I'm not sure about that Musp. The way it's written you have one dice pool and you're splitting it, which would suggest that your dice pool modifiers apply to the single dice pool, rather than forming two separate pools for each spell. At least, that's how I read it.

[/edit]This prevents a character from "doubling up" the bonus dice from a single focus by casting two spells at the same opponent, prevents wound modifiers from being counted twice, etc.

While not directly related, we can look at Attacker Using A Second Firearm (p.150), where it clearly states dice pool modifiers are applied after splitting the base pool.

A Focus can apply any number of times in a single Initiative Pass; it's only restriction is no more than once (or one focus) per test - splitting your pool results in multiple tests being made. Similar applies for essentially all modifiers, both positive & negative.

's a fair argument. That's another one for the FAQ file.

a file that really needs to be updated...

But Muspellsheimer's right
Modifiers are allways added (or susbstracted) after splitting the Pool .Thats why specialisation(f.E.) is double precious


with a precious Dance
Medicineman

Not really, as there's nothing unclear about it in the rules.

Even better idea is to make a three way split for 11/11/11

There used to be some arguing in the German Forums.Mainly wether specialisation is a Bonus or added to the Skill direktly
What's it say in SR4A ?

Hough!
Medicineman

"Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test."
So it's a bonus, as it adds dice instead of raising the skill.

So it's a bonus, as it adds dice instead of raising the skill
You know it,I know it,Lots of People know .But not everyone and not everyone sees it as clear as we do

HokaHey
Medicineman

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong then, you can only use the focus for one spell but global modifiers are applied to both. This would leave you with 3/4 Dice + 2 (mentor) + 2 (spec) + 4 (to one spell for focus) = 7(11)/8(12) (with the single boosted spell in brackets).

This makes sense to me as you have to channel the magical energy for a spell through a focus and if your splitting the spell it isn't being focused any more (kinda like aiming through a scope on a gun).

It might make sense to you, but that isn't anywhere in the rules(IMHO)

No. There is no restriction on how often a Focus can be used. The only such restriction is no more than one Focus per test. If you are somehow making two dozen Spellcasting tests in a single action, guess what? You can apply your Focus two dozen times, once per test.


Basically, you have absolutely no idea what the fuck I said in the quoted post.

Hmmm, that's interesting. I never bothered to consider it in that light. Makes me think I'm not as "munchie" as my reputation might suggest if I didn't come up with THAT one myself earlier. Just having the thing on you (and active, having an astral presence etc., etc., etc.) just affects how well you can work mojo, generally, not adding to your power like it used to in old editions. I need to ponder than and maybe focus the next magic point or two on spellcasting rather than powers...

Actually I disagree with muspellheimr on this one.

The rules for DUAL WIELDING two ranged weapons are UNNECESSARILY DIFFERENT than all other dual wielding rules. They are the only subsection which adds modifiers after splitting.

I need to point this out... the special text in question about adding modifier dice after the split ONLY appears on p150 (under wielding a second ranged weapon).

Other sections (such as attacking multiple targets w/ a long burst) do not do this. They split the dice pool normally.

Quite frankly, if it was up to me, I'd errata dual ranged attacks to be the same as multiple melee attacks and multiple spellcasting attacks. There's no good reason to make it different (especially when you can attack 4 times in a pass using ranged firearms).


Melee splits 'the pool'. No special note about adding mods afterward. (p158)


Spellcasting splits the pool. No special note about adding mods afterward.


Quite frankly... when I read Musp's point originally I thought sweet... I can be stealthy and cast a slew of buffs at once w/ a single action w/ a ton more dice than I thought I'd have. Though this strikes me as really broken in practice.

I agree with Muspellsheimr.

Spellcasting:
...
STEP 3: Choose Targets

You may cast multiple spells simultaneously by splitting your Spellcasting + Magic dice pool.

STEP 4: Make Spellcasting Test

Roll Spellcasting + Magic, modified by foci, totem bonuses, bound spirits, and/or visibility modifiers.


Thus, adding modifiers happens after (the next step) you split your dice pool.

Arsenal p.163

Attacking with two Melee Weapons
Split the dice pool before applying modifiers.



Again, SR4A.

but to do so the magician must split her
Spellcasting + Magic dice pool between each target.

Not Spellcasting + Magic + Modifiers; Spellcasting + Magic. Modifiers are applied after the split, & bonus dice from a Focus is a modifier.

Actually the part about shooting multiple targets with full-burst doesn't say anythink about having to split your dice pool.
So apparently you get to use your full pool against all targets.

High-force foci basically break magic, but it's completely RAW. Whoever wrote the focus-rules simply didn't think of the rule that tells you how to split your dicepool on multiple actions.

It gets even more ridiculous if you look at weaponfoci, as they add to the test as well, so a force 6 focus basically lets you attack every single opponent in range and still have a good shot at taking every single one out.
Case in point: Agility 4, Blades (or whatever) 4, specialisation, force 6 weapon focus. Split your dicepool to attack 8 (!) guys simultaneously. Your dice pool? 8 / 8 (base dice pool split up) +2 +6 = 9 dice against every single enemy, which is enough to reasonably hit a mook (and means you just got to roll 72 dice in a single complex action).

I heavily advise to houserule foci counting as base dicepool for splitting purposes.

EDIT: spelling

focus addiction?

As long as you don't exceed certain limits, Focus Addiction should not come into play.

Actually now I do think you have the right of it. Thanks for pointing out the addition in arsenal I had missed that.
Though I wonder why it wasn't put in SR4a then, as SR4a rules would override I'd think.


I just have to reiterate this... if there's one group I don't trust to write BALANCED rules it's the SR4 authors :(... plus the playtesters never seem to catch any of this stuff. The little stuff doesn't bother me, it's the big stuff you can drive a truck through and should be immediately evident to anyone w/ basic mathematical ability.


Max:
That makes heavy duty support weapons like MG's actually pretty scary now if true. I don't have access to the FAQ at the moment... but I thought I saw somewhere where they did an example like that and split the pool w/ the -2 at the end to the second target.

Generally it's too bad they don't limit that kind of splitting to heavy weapons MG's. That's the ones which really do need it IMO.

Also, too bad, that you can't modify MG's to be hypervelocity w/ higher cyclical rates by RAW. (only SMG & AR... *sigh*)

Hey now, time out. D&D4 skills anyone? We're not that bad.

also, there is edge and exploding dice. that stuff ads a whole lot of math to the topic...

Which are based on the mechanic originally introduced in SW Saga edition.

And quite frankly... the 4e mechanics are an improvement on those. (skill focus has lesser effect now than in saga). At low levels the fixed +skills tend to make them more unbalanced than at high levels. Though at high levels everyone ends up w/ a reasonable bonus to evreything for a nice bit of jack-of-all trades so long as it's not trained only.
Attribute + 5 (if you have the skill) + 3 (if you have the skill focus) + Misc Bonuses + half level round down. Simply works into a trained w/ a little bit of level progression.


And here I don't see what you're trying to point out Ancient. I rarely see 4e players w/ more than a +8 or so in a skill at 1st level under 4e DnD. And after that it tends to increase smoothly as they level progress. They did a good job there of combining a lot of redundant skills as well. NB: I am NOT a 4e fan, I see it as a completely new game and treat it as such (my main gripe with it is the whole way how things get very boring... ohh a dungeon crawl... expend encounter power, expend encounter power... is it bloody yet? Yes: use at-wills for mop up operations No: okay who takes one for the team and blows their daily). It gets rid of a lot of the flexibility in the system that was present in 3.5 and gave a lot of options.


As far as that comment here in SR.

The reason I felt like it, was because if they put in in 3 different places. Then it's for damn sure intentional! If it's intentional, what were they thinking of? I originally posted, to point out that the text in question EXPLICITLY saying to add mods after splitting only appeared in the dual wielding ranged weapons paragraph. Everywhere else it just says 'pool'... and quite frankly when I read dice pool... I think they mean to refer to X + all other relevant modifiers, but they never explicitly come out and say that. I generally argue in good faith, which tends to confuse people on web boards I know... but I do quickly admit when someone has the better of me in an argument.

Again the only parts where they do explicitly say it they say the exact opposite.. split the base THEN add the mods to each.

Falconer, mate, D&D4e skill challenges don't work, period. Mike Mearls has admitted as much. My point being that there are other games with much more significant rule holes and breaks than SR4 under the current crop of writers.

Well you have to remember, that there a lots of situational negative modifiers and those aply after the split too.

I think Falconer's comment is a little extreme, but he has a point with regard to the dice pool rules.

The definition of dice pool is stated as skill + linked attribute +/- any modifiers that may apply.

Then, however, the rules basically use two different formulas:

Dice Pool = Dice Pool + Dice Pool Modifiers
Dice Pool = Skill + Linked Attribute

They really should have used Dice Pool and Modified Dice Pool as definitions.

Ancient... again I have no idea who the guy is, or what exactly he's referring to.

All I know is the standard... perception check, disable trap... normal skill checks... etc. Which seem to work fairly well.


If you're referring to those extended skill checks in 4e... I can somewhat see your point. Pick a skill and roll, just say how it's relevant... okay... I could see if they gave the GM a list of 3 skills and let each player pick one. Though I've only seen those twice, and both times it was something of a comedy of errors. (both times they were somewhat neutral experience... a lot of hamming it up w/ no real challenge).

In which case, it's not the skills which are broken. It's the way in which they're used. And at that they're only initiated by the DM, not by the players.


The pool splits are unlikely to be done by NPC's... and are very much a core mechanic which players can tap and abuse at will.


Max:
Good call on the negatives... while I'm normally pretty good about pointing them out... I know a lot of people largely ignore them to speed up play :(. When they're somewhat critical to reducing sky high pools.

Edit: also IIRC in SR4a there's now a big push to eliminate negatives in opposed tests and turn them into defending bonuses.
EG: cover. Visibility is about the last big negative I can think of and most players (who know about it) immediately take pains to make sure they have low-light & thermo.

White Wolf is worse by a good margin (although still better than Palladium, I will not play a WoD game anymore because of the mechanics).

Which is also why I stopped playing their products.

That and the attitude issues. *shudder*
I don't know what's worse, the fans, or some of the authors

No need to get your back up. I was just pointing out that you can't use more then one Focus per test (as you so graciously pointed out), but I think there isn't enough time in one round to do two complex tests back to back which would allow only one Focus per test. I guess what I'm wondering is does 1 Focus per 1 Test the same as 1 Test per Focus (I would rules yes and you would need decide which spell the focus is used on, though you would be allowed to use two foci (one for each spell cast) in this case keeping the 1:1 ratio). Food for though and not firewood for the flames.

It's a one focus per test, nowhere does it say that multiple different tests can't benefit from the same focus at the same time.
If you multicast your doing multiple seperate tests and as such all of those tests can benefit from the same focus.

Interesting comments all around - I think this might be one of those 'table variation' times.

I'll be playing this guy for the first time at Gencon in some SR Missions games, so I'll see what they say.

I assumed the pool was split after adding modifiers, but after reading all this I definitely see the argument about modifiers coming after. Of course, if I read the magic rules correctly anyway, a small dice pool is not a bad thing with overcasting a direct combat spell.

If I have only 8/9 dice to roll with my effective magic 3 (after adept power points)...I can cast up to a force 6 stunbolt (or is it up to force 12, since my full magic attribute is 6?) and as long as I get one hit on the test I hit and do 6S base damage (or 12S) with only 2 drain (or 5). Do that twice on each IP, that's not too bad....? Or split it three ways to get 5, 6, and 6 dice?

you can cast as fast as you like, but you are going to suck it up on the drain. Just casting 5 spells at once is going to add about 10 points of drain over all to resist. (1+2+3+4) and that can tend to suck.

K... so I'm pretty much a N00b when it comes to playing mages. I caught this thread and realized that not only are mages frickin wicked, but even more so when you split your spells. I have a good focus, spec, and the right mentor spirit and last game I rained havoc down upon the masses. It was so awesome that I'm going to have to tune it down and pull it out (the multiple spells) only when absolutely necessary. Rock on Dumpshockers!

Isn't there a rule that you can only split up to the Skill Rating? Even if that's true, 4 attacks with 10 dice is crazy. It's even worse if the weapon focus has Reach and a personalized grip for more bonus fun.

Actually, each spell gets +1 for every other spell being cast. That means you would cast 5 spells all with +4 drain. The spells are all cast simultaneously, so it isn't like you cast spell 1, then cast spell 2 with added drain, etc...

Ooh, that's anoher potential argument for not doubling foci. Since spells are simultaneous, how can the foci buff both spells with it's full value at the same time?

Also, your spellcasting skill limits the number of spells you can cast. I imagine that should be the same for multiple melee attacks, considering those don't have the downside of increased drain.