Ok We were discussing hacking visual sensors in a couple of other posts.

Here is my question...

How much can I do remotely (ie without a hardware modification)?

1) Can I erase the operating system in a device? Commlink? Smartgun system? Contact lenses?
This would make the device completely useless until a new system was installed.

2) Some poor schmuck is running around with cyber eyes, wearing contact lenses over those, then glasses, and then goggles, maybe a dozen other such items added in. What are the limits to my interference with those different items? Can I block them all out entirely? Can I in real time change what is displayed by them? How about causing them to overheat, possible causing damage to the juicy bits under and around them?

3) Once I do all of these bad things to the contact lenses, how long does it take for the poor bozo to take them out while he is under fire (perhaps while his eyes are on fire)?

4) Ok poor schmuck with flaming eyeballs is clawing at his sizzling contacts while squealing like a little girl, can I then use the internal simrig in his internal commlink to switch him to Full VR, make it hot, and then attack him with some Black Hammer for added insult? While I am playing with his simrig, what can I do with the emotive band? Talk about making him cry like a little elf girl, can I make him feel like he is suffering PMS? Give him headaches? Switch rapidly back and forth from emotion to emotion until he becomes completely schitzo?

1. The rules don't actually say whether you can delete stuff. The Corrupt program exists, but there's nothing saying that you can use it to Corrupt programs that are running, or even Corrupt programs at all. It talks nebulously about information, but since the only experience the writers of the Matrix systems seem to have is Neuromancer and TV, they're probably not up on the "programs are information" yarn. So your GM is the determinant here.
2. There are no rules that allow you to Edit streams on the fly. Causing things to overheat? Lol, no. Only Dissonant Technomancers can make hardware overheat.
3. No rules. GM option.
4. I honestly have no idea. I would think you can't, since the actions section only tells you that you can control your own interface mode. GM's option, most likely.

Hm.... flaming eyeballs? I think i am at the right place.

1. Good question. It is never mentioned to just delete stuff. Especially the system itself. All it says is too crash it, and by that forcing it to restart. Also with all the "Programs cannot be copied" means that no one has a backup copy. Which means that you could hack a hackers comlink. Use one action to delete the System and Firewall and by that just trashed at least 6000 Nuyen. (Or just delete EVERYthing... a whole softwaresuit all on lvl 6 comes at least 75000 nuyen...ouchy). So... well i have no explanation why, but i don't think you can delete programs (Even if it would be logical) Maybe it is some unwritten rule between the hackers/deckers/technomancers of this world: Do what you want, but don't trash my 100k software, ok? I won't do it to you too)

2. If you have complete access you can manipulate EVERYTHING. You can set them to black, pink, let them show him things. But it is mentioned that even with a very high edit programm and a big response comlink you can't feed him completely rendered, realistic virtual input. It just is too complex to take what he sees, input it into your program, alter it heavily and sent it back all in real-time. But you can insert things (maybe show him foes in the corner of his eye. Or you could overlay his friends with ghoulskins *g*

The whole "overheating" Hm... ask your GM, but i guess not. A Nexus or such you could let overheat, but this kind of electronic devices is surely passive-cooled and foolproof.

Also you can't explode his eyes. (Even if that would be awesome) Since that would be a horrible drawback... But you could set them to "INSANE BRIGHTNESS" (But he could of course deactivate them or restart them with his DNI)

3. Depends on how good he is. I would need minutes... some people could plop them out. A real pro would have them wireless deactivated (like EVERYTHING else) and skinlink enabled.

4. HIGHLY unlikely. You can hack everything if he is an idiot and has it all broadcasting on high signal, but you can't get his DNI-access. He can always just deactivate his cyberware, or connections in his head with a thought.

EDIT: DANG have i really just used 13 minutes for this? Hm... have to think and type faster *g* Oh and there is a rule that you can edit the stream of a device. (You must use a simple action for it every... hm what was it... Combat turn... or everytime that device has an IP??? and use your Edit program.)

In any "Can a Hacker do XYZ?" area where there are no rules or guidelines in the RAW, this is the guideline I follow:

Can a virus do this today? If yes, a Hacker in 2070 can probably accomplish the same thing (though it'll probably be harder to do on an on-the-fly basis). If no, there's good precedent for ruling it out completely.

Of course, there isn't much a virus can't do to fuck up your shit.

There is nothing wrong with your Matrix connection. Do not attempt to adjust the perception. We are controlling transmission.

If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper.

We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical.

We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity.

We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your Matrix Connection. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to... The Outer Limits.

Naaaa.... don't begin to think like that. The matrix is VERY different from the internet. The whole soft- and hardware, encryption, security, programming and such is completely different.

The more you know about how stuff work in the real world the more insane you get, if you try to apply that in shadowrun. I mean "You can't copy a program" or such is just... really impossible. Just never try to bring real world electronics into shadowrun and make it work. It just is completely different.

Edit: @CanRay whooooo. coolness.

On overheating. I would say no. Most devices are almost certainly passive cooled, and most of the electronics inside is optical based. Optics doesn't generate nearly as much heat as electrical (Should it really be called Electronics anymore? Optics would be a more fitting name if anything). Even then you would not be able to set the things on fire. To make metal combust you have to throw a lot of heat at it. Before bursting into flames the system would shut itself down, much like todays electronics do (It is almost impossible to make a Computer erupt in flames these days, even with some serious overclocking. Chances are it will just shut itself down and refuse to boot.)

On deleting System/Firewall I would say no, such things would be stored in super secure read-only type things. I also remember reading that some of 2070 storage is protein based, so it should be even easier to make such things very hard to delete. On Programs I would be a bit more lenient, but it should not be an easy thing to do.

You can read my reply in the other thread for my stance on the other things.

Okay, so my position is weak. Conceded.

Happens Ocassionally...

No, it isn't completely different. As a matter of fact, it's pretty much the same, aside from the obvious gamism in having encryption be breakable by brute force in under a minute.

I'm generally right with you on "keep real life out of the game", but in cases where we have nothing EXCEPT real life to draw conclusions from, and the game and real life are closely related (as the Matrix rules are -- you could very easily run a year 2000 campaign with the current Matrix rules and suitably tweaked gear), using real life isn't a bad guideline. Using my guideline would give pretty much the same answers you gave to those four questions:

1) Viruses can't really delete entire OS's -- the worst I've seen is corrupting a boot sector or the like, which is covered by the Corrupt program.
2) Viruses can screw with data and do it all the time. Thus, you'd be able to insert artifacts or alter brightness levels of eyeware. However, I've never heard of a virus that takes a live camera feed, edits it with believable replacements, and feeds it back without noticeable lag (or WITH noticeable lag, for that matter). Thus, it's gotta be limited to simple edits or corrupts. I've also never heard of a virus intentionally overheating components.
3) Not relevant to my guideline.
4) I'm under the impression that hot sim modules are either physically activated (in the case of external simrigs) or only done through DNI (in the case of internals). Virii can't affect people at all, so it can't turn your sim to hot sim for you.

See? My guideline agrees with you on 1, 2, and 4, and has no opinion on 3

Note for 4, while you couldn't turn on his hot sim for him, I don't see why you couldn't (with enough time and skill, mind) set up a trap that Black Hammers him the next time he does turn on his hot sim.

Also remember that unless the target is an utter moron you aren't going to be able to realisticly hack his cyber without subduing him first no matter how hot of a Decker you are.

QFT

I agree that using the real world as a guideline for what you can do on the Matrix is a pretty good one. It can seriously bit you in the keister though if the player of the hacker/decker is a professional UNIX programmer, and I know just enough to know what he was trying to do. Ended up doing a lot of stuff via manipulating the CRONTAB - basically setting things to execute at a specific time, whether or not he was logged in.

It actually worked out pretty well - we could take care of his hacking prior to the game session. Kept the game from pausing while decker was doing his thing, and the decker was able to contribute directly to the run.

The 4th edition rules are greatly streamlined, and tries to reduce your options to a set menu of choices. As a GM, it's your call on what kind of flexibility to allow. Keep it "within reason" and go with it. And by reason...would you put on contacts that a passing hacker could set on fire? No. Therefore, contacts probably can't physically overheat like that.

My 2¢.

If it's reasonable for a device to do something, then it's possible for the software to get it to do it. If the device can't do it, then there's no way the software can make it do it.

For example, take a standard optic storage chip. Can you use software to examine it, work with the data, and do all kinds of things to the data? Yes. Can you make the Optic Chip explode with software? Only if optic chip makers are in the habit of making optic chips that can explode.

So, the OP mentioned lots of different visual devices. Can you use software to manipulate how it presents and works with vision. Yes. Can you make it explode? Only if people buy contacts that can explode.

It's certainly possible the corp that manufactures these devices may not have made it known about the features that allow the devices to overheat and explode. Perhaps the last group of runners sent to suppress the release of those test results from Consumers Reports lab were all too successful.

Do what's fun for your game.

I guess I have to agree with most of the comments here.

While it would have been fun to have the contacts burnout someones eyeballs, it was a bit to ask Fun topic though.

As far as what a virus is capable of... Sorry but you don't really understand the difference between what a virus can do as opposed to what it is normally used to accomplish in the modern day.

It is entirely possible to scrub a hard drive using purely automated processes. The issue here is how well you can get a viral spread with something that noxious.

While there are no rules in the game for erasing the operating system of a device (any device actually), this is quite simple in the real world. How many of us have accidentally updated firmware incorrectly OOOPS! In the here and now, virii are being spread to and from memory in preipherals, video memory is especially nice with some of the high end graphics cards having over a gigabyte of memory that can be over written to hold code. I will agree that allowing this sort of activity makes hackers entirely too powerful.

And in the day of AR spam attacks, people would be targeting competitors devices regularly, and I think exploding eyeballs would make the news fairly quickly

Huh, I always assumed that everything had moved to electro-magnetic switches as opposed to optic based switching with the first Cyberdeck's.

There isn't much that i can say that hasn't already been said, however I still intend to comment.

1. I dont think that it would be wise to attempt such a feat. As I recall, though I may be wrong, In order to manipulate a node you have to be in the node. And if you try to wipe the node clean then you may do harm to yourself.
2. Only a person with a death wise or who is heavily brain damaged would leave any amounts of such gear accessible to the public. Overheating unlikely since, as has been stated, no company would intentionally sell such gear that is so unsafe to the public. Maybe leave some "Defective" ones lying around where anyone could snatch them up. Note the quotation marks...
As for manipulating what they see, you might be able to overlay a premade(by player) recorder or something, though it still might now work.
3.Depends on the individual... and possible some edge.
4. I dont know about effecting things on the DNI, but what I do think might be is possible is feeding his comlink and simrig a sim-sense recording of someone going through PMS, or of a premade recording of a string of rapidly changing emotions and such to mess with him. While he may still be able to turn off his gear with the DNI, one could always argue that by flooding his simrig with changing emotions and such which he would feel while it was on might distract him. That little bit is up to the GM.