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Big D
Question: *can* you inhabit wimps, for use as dopplegangers or jarheads?

If so, what mental stats does a blank, fast-grown (but presumeably genetically selected/modified and chromed out) wimp come with for purposes of determining post-merge mental stats?
FrankTrollman
Wimps have an object resistance of 1 - equal to that of "grass" or "trees".

-Frank
Big D
So, if they have OR instead of mental attributes, inhabitation is handled as per inanimate objects, rather than living ones?

If so, there would obviously be no point to it, since an inhabitated object can't use DNI or ASIST. I guess you could still use a full wimp body under zombie rules (except maybe without the decay) as a doppleganger, but for a jarhead, you'd need to go after a "live" brain (like that of Abby Normal?).
FrankTrollman
Non-sentient creatures are in a weird place in Shadowrun because they are "living creatures" but they still have no mental stats. So you have to overcome an Object Resistance Threshold, but once you've done that the host is a living creature and you move on with your life. You'd do the same for a Starfish or any other non-sentient living creature.

It's an edge case. The game basically assumes that everything you're going to encounter will be a sentient creature (rat), a sapient creature (human), or an inanimate object (brick). But there are living things that don't fit into those categories. And if it comes up you treat them as living things except for using an (admittedly very low) object resistance instead of an actual resistance roll.

You can totally Manabolt trees if you want. They are living things. They just have an OR of 1 instead of rolling their (nonexistant) Willpower. On average it works out to all non-sentient creatures having mental stats of 3.

-Frank
Big D
Ahh, gotcha.

So, post-merge (assuming it's not a true form), do you just use the spirit's mental stats? And do brainmods add dice?

If so, that lets you cheat the merge caps, and makes a wimp brain superior to the other types for this application, although it effectively costs you most of the spirit's spellcasting (due to lack of unaided vision) in the process.

I could see an easy cheat to restore that, but it would involve custom-building a jarhead (rather than stealing a corp one) to retain the optic nerves and fit cyberyes, which could then look through something akin to magesight goggles to see out from under armor while still being untargetable by spells.

Hmmm. Where did Igor get off to?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
So, post-merge (assuming it's not a true form), do you just use the spirit's mental stats?


You always just use the spirit's mental stats during an inhabitation.

QUOTE
And do brainmods add dice?


Brain mods apply as appropriate. That means that if you give the body a cerebral booster it will do fuck all (the Logic score of the host is over written). However, once the spirit is merged in you can go get it a Cerebral Booster - adding Logic and sacrificing Essence as normal.

QUOTE
If so, that lets you cheat the merge caps, and makes a wimp brain superior to the other types for this application, although it effectively costs you most of the spirit's spellcasting (due to lack of unaided vision) in the process.

I could see an easy cheat to restore that, but it would involve custom-building a jarhead (rather than stealing a corp one) to retain the optic nerves and fit cyberyes, which could then look through something akin to magesight goggles to see out from under armor while still being untargetable by spells.


I don't actually understand any of this.

-Frank
Big D
QUOTE
I don't actually understand any of this.


Unless I'm mis-remembering (too many topics lately on spirit powers), wasn't there a ruling coming up that for Inhabitation, mental stats were capped at the host's levels? Or was that just Possession/Channeling that was affected?

Basically, I was toying around with the idea of using a wimp jarhead to get around that rule, and produce a munchkin ally jarhead. If the rule was only for Possession, and not Inhabitation, then it didn't matter either way.

The rest was an attempt to figure out how a jarhead could get true LOS to cast. Cybereyes+magesight goggles was all that I could think of, since the shape and size of a jarhead is not conducive to placement above the shoulders--besides, you want it deep under armor anyways.

As usual, this is just hypotheticals. I don't expect GMs to allow it, although I *do* still struggle with explaining why corps aren't--allies remove all of the psychological downsides and limited lifespans involved, plus add INW, better stats and skills, and spellcasting (LOS permitting). A jarhead that can Heal/Fix itself, and Stunbolt you as easily as it can put a long narrow HMG burst into you? Ow.
hyzmarca
Mass production. You can easily convert any old warehouse into a brain cloning factory and churn out 200 new brains a day. Scale it up, and you can be putting out hundreds of thousands of blank brains every week.

On the other hand, conjuring an Ally spirit is something that requires a great deal of precious finite karma and a mage with some very special experience.
Big D
Nod. I agree with that in general, but you'd think for research purposes, and to provide some prime corpsec assets, they'd be working with allies, too.

I would not expect to see an ally--of any sort--guarding the Stuffer Shack (unless it's the manager's personal ally). But I would expect to see *some* in the reports we get on top-secret paydata that runners posted on Jackpoint, or mentioned in barely-survived encounters.

And heaven help us if the corps ever figure out how to abuse karma drain...
PlatonicPimp
Hey, dude, they have to leave SOME big nasties for the runners to encounter. If they spelled every possible horrible bad guy in the books, the players would know what's coming.
Draconis
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Mass production. You can easily convert any old warehouse into a brain cloning factory and churn out 200 new brains a day. Scale it up, and you can be putting out hundreds of thousands of blank brains every week.

That's great. I actually know several people who could use a brain.
Most of the people driving on the road for example. biggrin.gif
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (Big D)
...

The rest was an attempt to figure out how a jarhead could get true LOS to cast. Cybereyes+magesight goggles was all that I could think of, since the shape and size of a jarhead is not conducive to placement above the shoulders--besides, you want it deep under armor anyways.

...

A cybereye on the end of a cord is probably a better model. If the jar is just sitting on a shelf of something, the cord can be reeled in so that the eyes are flush with the jar's casing. When the jar gets put into a tank, then the rope gets spooled out and the eyes are basically on the surface of the tank somewhere.

This lets you use all the vision mods on the eyes without having to try to get them piped through the goggles. On the other hand, you can theoretically be targeted by spells this way, since that are your actual eyes out there on the surface of the tank. Better imagine a one way mirrored bubble around them as well.

But how much extra essence to charge for the extra cord that connects the actual eye to the brain?
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Draconis)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 19 2007, 03:26 AM)
Mass production. You can easily convert any old warehouse into a brain cloning factory and churn out 200 new brains a day. Scale it up, and you can be putting out hundreds of thousands of blank brains every week.

That's great. I actually know several people who could use a brain.
Most of the people driving on the road for example. biggrin.gif

how about giving the car a brain instead?

like say a "cyborg" brain wink.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Big D)
Unless I'm mis-remembering (too many topics lately on spirit powers), wasn't there a ruling coming up that for Inhabitation, mental stats were capped at the host's levels? Or was that just Possession/Channeling that was affected?


Oh that. Peter Taylor announced that the physical stats of non materialized spirits were going to be limited by the augmented caps of the host. That caused, needless to say, a lot of sputtering and invectives.

Whether in response to the arguments or not, when the update finally came into the FAQ, it announced that the physical attributes of a possessed or inhabitted spirit were indeed capped by normal and augmented maximums - but that the normal maximum was the Host's + the Spirit's Force, with Augmented maximum calculated accordingly.

So really there isn't any situation where you can hit a limit because you got possessed. The attributes rise by X, the normal limit rises by X, and the augmented limit rises by 1.5X - so it's literally impossible for it to be a problem. It simply closes a loop where people were contemplating Edging Increase Attribute spells.

-Frank
Jack Kain
This is right up there with the zombie sweat shop.
Big D
Oh, neat, I didn't realize that the issue had been resolved. And since I got it backwards, it didn't matter anyways, since physical stats are irrelevant except for resisting feedback damage (or real damage that somehow gets through both metal and spirit armor).

I guess the only remaining question is if you can implant brain mods into an inhabited jarhead without killing the .1 essence brain and evicting the spirit. I'd think that between jarhead creation, inhabitation, and augmentation, there's a sequence of steps that would work. For that matter, I don't quite see why a normal jarhead couldn't have some upgrades done after it became a jarhead, but RAW looks like that might be fatal; you'd have to have anything else done before you lop off their head and stick it in a bucket.

QUOTE
This is right up there with the zombie sweat shop.

Don't even get me started on why an unholy alliance between voodoo priestess vampires and succubi should rule the world under RAW--or why monster blood spirits should have wiped out entire cities, Godzilla style, before being stopped (maybe) with nukes. Loopholes and unbound linear progression can be fun to play with on a board, but in a game is another matter. vegm.gif
darthmord
Well, do keep in mind (sorry, pun not intended), that if your spirit has Inhabitation, all the mental stats are overwritten as are the special stats (Edge, Essence, Magic, etc).

So that 0.1 Essence jarhead once inhabited it now a "Essence = Force" jarhead spirit.

Note, after this happens, you can have more cyberware installed. It'll just put a hurt on the spirit's Essence & Magic.

But yes, your order would be as follows...

1. jarhead
2. spirit inhabit
3. additional cyberware

I suppose though, that one could have all sorts of brain/head cyberware / bioware implanted prior to the jarhead creation. The rules don't say jarhead = 5.9 Essence. They just say it leaves the subject with 0.1 Essence. Do remember that attribute boosting stuff installed *before* the spirit inhabits doesn't boost the spirit's stats, only that stuff installed after the spirit shows up does.

Honestly, might as well make a cyberzombie but just stop right before you go below 0 Essence and then have the spirit Inhabit the body and throw the result so it's a Flesh Form.
Bira
A cyborg already seems to have just about all the headware he needs - Implanted commlink, control rig, skillwires, datajacks, stuff that helps him with hacking...

I don't know if I'd use spirits for making scary cyborgs that were never human - a CCU ("jar") with a more powerful computer instead of a biological brain inside is the pefect vessel for an AI.
Big D
*cue Terminator theme*
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