I'll start this thread to quit derailing another thread where this topic is being discussed.

To answer a question Knasser asked ther, I think I have had 8 fiction contestd with a bit over 30 stories. Prior to the last couple where I waited for 10 submissions, I used calendar deadlines and the number of submissions ran from a low of 1 to maybe 5, iirc. If we want an anthology, there is fiction out there. I am fond of Shapcano's, but he has really tailed off in the last decade. I know he was still coming by the Writer's Forum every now and then a few years back, but I haven't seen him in a while. Shapcano's site hosts a lot of fiction and was last updated a year ago, DeckerM had a bunch of fiction, and I think it is Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace that is Robyn's site with a lot of fiction - like a few novels worth as well as The Shadowrun Writer's Forum that she maintains/owns.

All my contests can be reached through the link in my sig - SR fiction I provoked. It links to the first contest and in the first post are links to all the other contests.

One idea if we post it here on Dumshock, it could go in the Welcome to the Shadows section (it deals with in character game stuff) and people interested could link to it in their sig so it reminds people it's there. Then again, if we wait to post an anthology, we could just announce it and likewise link it. If the fiction section becomes popular, DS demand might get the stories their own section. I would rather start with links to stories placed in an existing section and not whine/beg/plead for our own section. It'll happen if it is destined to happen.

Hi tisoz,

I'm afraid I got ahead of myself:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=27571

When you started talking about doing something ourselves, it lit a fire in my brain and I just liked the idea so much and I know there's all that material out there, and I can do layout and presentation. I thought why not? What are your thoughts on this?

Anyway, regards re-starting Shadowrun fiction. What would be your preference? If our aim is to build up a bit more of an active writing community, I see three obvious options, basically:

Use Winterhawk's site.
Use my site.
Use Dumpshock.

I'm attempting to contact Winterhawk (Robyn) about this, just in case she has any input. My feel from previous conversations is that she has moved on, but she's obviously someone with a lot to offer in this area, so we'll see if she has any interest and that might have some bearing. If she doesn't want involvement, then that's an issue with using her site. It's remained there for a long time, but it's unmaintained and we don't have the capability to maintain it, I think. So whilst it has an existing body of work and some memberships, there's a risk in using it. Also, it's very blue and black. I'm open on all these options though.

As regards using my site. There's no existing community which is a big minus. There's also no existing forum which is similarly a minus, although this one can be rectified fairly promptly if there's a need. It does get a lot of traffic and it has the advantages of as much bandwidth and capacity as you ever want, it's not going anywhere and, if this is an advantage ever, its a neutral and independent place. I don't necessarily want the overhead of maintaining a forum, but I don't think it would be a problem. Anyway, I don't know that this is the best option, but it's not a problem to do this. I suppose one plus is that my site is somewhere that a lot of people already go to download Shadowrun material, making an extension into people grabbing fiction a fairly natural thing. I can set up a proper Stories section where people just go to see Shadowrun stories very easily (and this can link back to the forums). I do this with a different look and feel to make it very much its own place.

Regarding using Dumpshock. This looks like our best option due to the existing community and traffic. I guess the only concerns are that its very broad and thus not focused - a fiction writing community will very likely get lost in the general thrust of the place and few people look outside the main Shadowrun forum anyway. Also, its not independent. So I'm a little split on this. And we don't get a nice, "stories" page, well ordered and well-presented.

What do you (and other people) think? Should I whip up a Shadowrun Writers section on my site? Wherever we do this, what steps are we going to take to get this going? I think getting some stories people have already written up there would be a nice start. If you and I and anyone else are on hand offering feedback on works (as well as the rest of the community), then I think that's great. If we do this elsewhere, I reckon we can certainly get enough attention to make it viable. The amount of traffic I get from this place just for my gaming materials shows how well we can publicise things.

Your thoughts? You're more of an expert on this?

Peace,

Khadim.

No problem, enthusiasm is good.


I agree with the options. What would be nice about The Shadowrun Writer's Forum (tSWF) is it is pre-existing, some traffic there might bring out some of the old contributors, and it wouldn't look like we are competing with tSWF or trying to kill it off.

I wouldn't especially want to use tSWF unless Robyn is going to be active with it or trusts us enough to hand over the control we would need to maintain the site.

Control isn't an issue with your site (until we have a falling out, then it's only an issue to me ), and I don't think control would be an issue on Dumpshock (DS) as I hav seen the moderators do some requested thread editing and I think all the contests I ran looked ok because I kept control in posting them so was able to go back and edit. Letting authors post directly to the final product may present a problem. Also, readers are going to be adding comments. This could be solved by having a seperate thread for comments and asking the mods to move erroneous posts to the proper thread.

Feedback can be public, posted in a proper thread, or private by personal messaging the author directly. Everyone on (DS) automatically gets their own PM account.

I am optimistic about (DS) adding a fiction section if demand warrants it. I also think you may be surprised about the traffic Welcome to the Shadows generates, which is where I propose posting the stories, and where I see some people who have an interest in storytelling. Links in sigs can be just as useful to advertise where the fiction can be found, either on (DS) or on your site.

The pros about your site: control, and format. You have total control. I like having things available as pdfs. Questions about your site: How can readers give feedback to authors? Can we put up a copy of the story without requiring a download? I think the feedback should be public so other readers can agree or disagree about critiques. Email accounts could work for feedback, but it might be misleading. A minor problem one reader may have may align itself with the authors feelings, while everyone else thought the issue a non-issue or just minor. If someone brings up an issue, others may see what the issue is and agree it is the thing in the back of their mind they couldn't put their finger on that kept them from really enjoying the story.

Another possible pro for your site is advertising to generate income that could be used to cover print expenses. This is just a thought I'm popping out there for some consideration.

I am kind of leaning toward your site and (DS), even tSWF if we can get some control or Robyn wants to get active and work with us. I see no reason not to get the widest coverage possible. Then we can see which site is getting the hits for the fiction.


This would solve the public feedback issue as well as the non-pdf posting of the fiction. This one thing solves the issues I have.


Again, advertising to offset costs. Some could be links to buying official SR material where when they go through the link on your site, you get paid, or ones that pay based on traffic at your site.

You came up with a solution to posting the stories in non-pdf (I think), do you have a non-forum way of creating a public feedback space?


Ye of little faith. At the very worst, people will ask where to find some good fiction and those in the know (there will be several) will provide the answer, probably complete with a link. I can see a sticky being put up directing people to it. I think my last contest wound up getting stickied without my request. I think this is in the category, "If you build it, they will come." If it is well built it will get the attention and space it deserves. If we want it to have it's own section with stickies in the heavy traffic sections, then we bust our asses and make the fiction such quality it can't be ignored. <puts away his pom-poms and megaphone>


Woohoo! I'm an expert! hardly

My thoughts on an anthology of existing work on your site - it would probably work. It would probably be appreciated. I would contact Shapcano, if possible, and the authors he posted stories for. He may want the traffic, but I know he has ran contests in the past with SR books as the prize. It's where I stole the idea. If he wants to be involved, my feelings are roll out the red carpet for him. Ditto Robyn. Robyn has NOVELS. I doubt anyone has edited them for her or given a lot of feedback, as I confess even I haven't read them all. Some part of me is greedily rationing them for when the time comes there is no more SR fiction. She also has short stories she may contribute.

One of my pet peeves is the unfinished story. I know authors want instant fedback and appreciation is like cheers from a crowd spurring them on to finish the piece. But I really feel the majority never get finished. Maybe some helpful critique trying to improve the story disappointed the author and prompted them to quit. Maybe they wrote themself into a corner, but I doubt that excuse is true too often. Maybe they were seeing if they could write a story and lost interest. Life got busy. They found a new hobby. Whatever.

But if readers took their time to read an unfinished story, then other readers even took time to constructively comment upon it, you are breaking an implied promise by not finishing the piece. Even if no one came out and said they wanted more, there is someone and maybe someone 100 years from now who stumbles across a half finished story that is gonna wonder how it ended.

If Stephen King, who has written and published unfinished books and series more than once, never followed through and finished them, his readers would quit investing their time in the next partial work until he got it finished. At least this reader would.

I can understand that. I think it is, if not abandoned, content to rest. I've attempted to get in touch with Robyn though so hopefully she'll give an opinion on this. I do think in all honesty, it would need a face-lift if re-born, which is one reason why I'm volunteering my own site, because I can do that.



That makes sense. It's very far from my desire to tread on any toes or ride on any coat-tails. Anyway, we'd all be a poor group of writers if we couldn't come up with a different name for this.



On this topic, it is a concern whether I can be trusted and impartial. I try my hardest and I don't envisage me causing problems, but I'm not sure if there are any technical measures I could take to minimise risk. If there are, then please do suggest them.



The mods have been mostly very good here. I think we could do a lot more in structuring things under our own auspices though. We might want to break things up into several topic areas in a way that we can't do on Dumpshock.

(note - the forum tells me I've exceeded the allowed number of quotes, so I'm breaking this up into two posts here)

(continued)



I'm also fairly optimistic about this if its the route we drive for.


I can definitely provide a nice-looking and fully-usable forum. I could probably get it up and running next weekend which is my next available proper block of time for doing things. As regards doing things as PDFs, this I can provide. If people are willing to do some basic formatting, I can practically automate it. And I agree that it would be very nice to have everything in one place.



I am against this, personally. I am happy to fund the site entirely, that is a non-issue. And print expenses, if they come up, should be done in a self-funding way. We definitely want to use any traffic to promote the Shadowrun game as much as possible however. One of my interests in more Shadowrun fiction is that it is a good way to get people into the game. I doubt there will be much opportunity as people coming there will likely be coming from an existing familiarity with Shadowrun, but always worth keeping some links up to date.



Well then lets go with me getting a forum set up next weekend so we can see what we're looking at. Hopefully that time scale is good enough. If we decide to do something different, I don't consider it a big loss of time. I'm sure we can drive traffic there anyway.




I'm sure I can add a blog-style comments section. I'll chat with my techy mate. Or maybe the existence of forums will be sufficient? Things can be added later, anyway.



I like the sound of that.



Well, you've been at this longer than I have.



I have asked her. I also already have one contributor from Shapcano's place. I confess that a lot of this is before my time. I will try and contact more people and get some interest. I quite like material to be up to date (i.e. 2070 material) as I think it would be a little confusing to have fiction from different editions in a single anthology (unless explicitly apparent and part of the story).



So, basically, I should finish that sequel to Dark King as I said I would. Okay - I'm on it!

K.

I just saw a place we are likely to clash - which edition the fiction uses. I quit worrying about staying up to date with 4th edition over a year ago. I like to write about pre-system failure times. For the most part, I don't think the edition really matters. Old tech is still going to get used in the future, but things like wireless is around now so I think it is accepted in decking days, too. What clashes is my favorite area and that is magic, especially spirits. Spirits got an entire rebody in 4th edition in thier types and abilities. I am used to the old style spirit rules and abilities, like them, and want to write about them.

I will concede the focus needs to be on 4th edition to get people interested in the game and keep the game going. But I also like history and the game history as well as stories from previous editions. I hope there is going to be a space for this.

Blame it on Thieves' World being some of my first fantasy fiction, but I'm a sucker for anthologies. I'm an even bigger sucker for anthologies that actually weave together and use (and gently abuse) the same characters from story to story, braiding events into a cohesive -- or at least somewhat cohesive -- whole. The Shadow community working like it does, it seems like it'd be fairly easy to have guest appearances here and there, with some characters drifting from job to job (and as such, story to story), pretty smoothly. Hell, Shadowrun being Shadowrun we could even have two stories of the same operation, from opposing viewpoints.

Personally, I'd much rather write something new for a project like this than dig up something I've already tried really hard to show off. The only Shadowrun fiction I've got that I haven't shown around already is the aborted (or ignored, or rejected-by-silence, or whatever you want to call it) serial fiction I threw together about a year and a half ago. It's in ~5k chunks, but no single piece of the six-part story would fit very well entirely as a stand alone, I think. I was specifically writing it to be read in bite-sized chunks, but as bite sized chunks that would, at least eventually, be read together as a cohesive whole... and I don't wanna try and claim 30,000 words of a project like this.

So I'd rather write something new.

Hi tisoz,

This week has been very busy as I knew it would be, so I haven't been around very much. Maybe we'll clash on edition, but hopefully not. Most work may be set in 2070, but that doesn't mean there can't be flashbacks, recollections or simply work that is set in an earlier time. Very little has actually been ret-conned. A lot of the fluff for spirits is similar, I think. 4th just doesn't do a very strong job of showcasing the fluff of how they differ from tradition to tradition. A shaman should still be summoning natural-seeming spirits, imo. Or maybe I've misunderstood.

Anyway, if you still think it is worthwhile, I'll go ahead and try and get that forum software up and running on my site.

K.

Since you've been busy, you may not have noticed the sticky that went up in regards to starting a new on line magazine similar to TSS. You might check it out and see if it fits the needs.

I saw it, but I don't think it fits the need of a community to discuss things in. Also, it has yet to actually appear or be sustained.

Shall I stick up a forum? Will we try this out? I will need a partner in getting something like this going as it is too much for one person.

K.

Hey guys,

I just popped in here on a whim and saw Knasser's PM, which led me here.

Good to see that somebody wants to carry on the SR fiction "torch," and I'm flattered that you'd think of me.

Here's where I am at the moment: the Magespace is pretty much unmaintained at this point. I really should go through and at least update the email addresses that ask for feedback, since at this point it goes to an email address I no longer check (not that there's likely to be any these days, since I haven't updated in so long). It's not going anywhere--I expect it will stay up indefinitely, and I have no plans to take it down. However, I also have no immediate plans to update it. Much as I love Shadowrun, I have moved on. You can laugh at me if you like (I probably deserve it!) but I have been sucked into the black hole called World of Warcraft, and my little immediate-gratification heart has been having a lot of fun playing my blood elf mage and death knight in a raiding guild. Since I really only have enough free time to support one obsessive hobby at once, SR has taken a back seat. So using my site for any kind of fiction updates is probably not feasible.

As for the SRWF...I could hand it over to you but I'm not sure I even remember the password anymore, and I'm sure there are better forums out there than EZBoard these days anyway. You'd probably be better off starting up a fresh forum.

I wish you best of luck in your endeavors--let me know if you get something going, because I still enjoy reading good SR fiction.

Thanks. It's nice to know we won't be offending you, or having some misunderstandings.

I am sort of wondering where this stands at the moment. Apparently, I am currently running a fiction contest, there's an online magazine due out soon that promises monthly fiction, and there is a semi-active vignette thread here on DS. Knasser has his site and is accepting fiction.

I may post the contest stories on Knasser's site, then put a poll and a link to them here on Dumpshock for voting and comments. Unless Knasser has the ability to carry out those functions. In case it isn't clear, I'm trying to support Knasser's site and/or his fiction repository.

Comments?

For the sake of simplicity and ease of access, the more you can centralize the info, the better (IMHO).

AJC