fourstring_samurai
Jan 26 2004, 08:38 PM
I don't have the CC handy, but do all bursts from a burst fire pistol require a complex action? i don't remember this from the custom gun design options in the cc, but the BF pistols from the main book and others require a complex action.
am i missing something?
Lilt
Jan 26 2004, 08:42 PM
Only the Savalette Guardian's BF takes a complex action, the others are simple actions as per the standard combat rules.
Austere Emancipator
Jan 26 2004, 08:43 PM
The design options don't mention anything of the sort. It seems at least the Fichetti Executive Action and the FN 5-7C fire bursts as Simple Actions, but all others as Compelx Actions.
It's 2 - 2: Beretta 200ST and Savalette Guardian take a Complex, FEA and 5-7C take a Simple.
Lantzer
Jan 26 2004, 08:53 PM
If you are talking about _designing_ guns for your game, I'd suggest the following rule of thumb:
1) Machine pistols use a simple action.
2) Others use a complex
I know the canon pistols are inconsistent.
FlakJacket
Jan 26 2004, 11:14 PM
Why? Although I can see it from a game balance point of view, why should it be any different between a handgun, machine pistol or submachine guns? Whilst most of the real world ones appear to be more 3 round burst rather than fully automatic, something like the
Fire Selector System for Glocks shows it's fairly easy to do. Watch the film clip, it's quite amusing. Although it's likely to give GM's nightmares if they ever allowed it, or a
much more lethal game than normal.
mfb
Jan 26 2004, 11:16 PM
if i'm gonna pay upwards of three grand for a burst-fire pistol, it's damn well going to burst on a simple action.
Cray74
Jan 26 2004, 11:33 PM
QUOTE (fourstring_samurai) |
I don't have the CC handy, but do all bursts from a burst fire pistol require a complex action? i don't remember this from the custom gun design options in the cc, but the BF pistols from the main book and others require a complex action.
am i missing something? |
I don't think the Ares Viper requires a complex action to burst fire.
Austere Emancipator
Jan 26 2004, 11:52 PM
Right, so it's actually Complex 2 - Simple 3.
That FSS looks fun... And doesn't give me any headaches.
sir fwank
Jan 27 2004, 12:15 AM
mauser gladiator
Concealability: 5
Ammunition: 12©
Mode: SA/BF
Damage: 9M
Weight: 3
Availability: 10/16Days
Cost: 1200
Street Index: 3.5
Accessories: RC(2)
from arsenal 2060. btw the german guns are listed in the german.dat files on mcmackies site, with a little tinkering...
i love the german guns.
FlakJacket
Jan 27 2004, 12:23 AM
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
That FSS looks fun... And doesn't give me any headaches. |
Well it's more of a game style thing. I've known people that were fine with it and others that wouldn't allow the thing within twelve feet of their games. The guy using it in-game also talked the GM into using Raygun's Burst Fire Control edge and loaded the thing with a heavy barrel, personalised grip and a smartlink-2. It got very... Underworld-esque.
![biggrin.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)
Although the GM can just use the standard whatever the players have, so can the NPC's argument.
Austere Emancipator
Jan 27 2004, 07:49 AM
In my games, without Burst Fire Control, heavy barrels, personalized grips or underbarrel weights (or shock pads, or gas vents), there isn't much to be done to reduce the recoil. 1 point of RC is most you can get into a pistol IMG, which is a nice deterrent against that sort of thing.
And "so can the NPCs" is great in this case, because semi-auto pistols modified for fully automatic are easy enough to get hold of even for gangers. On the other hand, so are assault rifles...
Gem the Troll
Jan 27 2004, 01:09 PM
Just remember strength 6 provides 1 point of recoil, and so does any stregth score beyond that (i.e. 7 gives 2, 8 gives 3)...
Austere Emancipator
Jan 27 2004, 01:21 PM
Not in my games they don't.
Velocity
Jan 27 2004, 02:11 PM
QUOTE |
mfb wrote: if i'm gonna pay upwards of three grand for a burst-fire pistol, it's damn well going to burst on a simple action. |
Hear, hear.
Siege
Jan 27 2004, 02:16 PM
QUOTE (Velocity) |
QUOTE | mfb wrote: if i'm gonna pay upwards of three grand for a burst-fire pistol, it's damn well going to burst on a simple action. |
Hear, hear.
|
If memory serves, trying to get your hands on a burst-fire pistol is difficult enough, never mind trying to find a SA BF weapon.
And truthfully, if I have to engage a target a close to point blank ranges, I'll settle for a 3k, 12S weapon -- complex action or not.
![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif)
-Siege
mfb
Jan 27 2004, 03:02 PM
why? just get a T-250 with EX ammo. the conceal's only 1 point lower (!).
it should also be noted that the Slivergun--the premiere BF pistol--has a lower Avail than a taser.
Siege
Jan 27 2004, 03:12 PM
The T-250 is a shotgun.
It's larger, heavier and harder to handle in a single hand than a heavy pistol.
Not to mention if more difficult to haul around if you have other things to carry like: medkits, microtronic toolkits and so on.
But primarily I like the idea of a burst-fire handgun because if you get in extremely close-quarters combat, managing a shotgun is a bit more difficult than a handgun. Call it a holdover from too many Cthulhu sessions.
![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif)
-Siege
Edit: I've never liked sliver guns for the specific target selection attached to sliver weapons.
Edit: Hah! The SG is .25 kilos heavier than the 250. Oh well, my other points still stand.
Modesitt
Jan 27 2004, 06:19 PM
There's no sense in me repeating what I or others said before me. So linkage!
Link to a post where I compare the machine pistols in SR.Thread regarding heavy pistols, where a number of people comment that the complex fire thing is a holdover from the older editions and I perform a mini-hijack. Don't read past the first page.I looked some in the archives, but I couldn't find anything more about burst firing pistols. Well, I DID but they're all either bitchfests about the AVS/Called shots(Pretty much the same thing) or people trying to get dual-wielding characters a break.
Velocity
Jan 27 2004, 08:56 PM
QUOTE |
mfb wrote: if i'm gonna pay upwards of three grand for a burst-fire pistol, it's damn well going to burst on a simple action. |
QUOTE |
Velocity wrote: Hear, hear. |
QUOTE |
Siege wrote: If memory serves, trying to get your hands on a burst-fire pistol is difficult enough, never mind trying to find a SA BF weapon. |
Wait, don't tell me you actually buy your weapons
off the rack? C'mon
Siege, you've gotta be kidding me: unless you're looking for a throwaway gun (i.e. an Ares Predator you ditch in a dumpster after capping the corp veep), shouldn't you always custom build--or custom-order--your gun? Granted, it's a pricy proposition but well worth it in the long run. And as for making the weapon traceable... well, don't get caught and don't lose your gun.
Siege
Jan 27 2004, 09:07 PM
Look at it this way: if you can find a weapon that fits your particular needs with a minimum of tweaking, you have more time for other things that also demand your attention.
Especially if you're not the gun bunny.
-Siege
Kagetenshi
Jan 27 2004, 09:13 PM
QUOTE (Gem the Troll) |
Just remember strength 6 provides 1 point of recoil, and so does any stregth score beyond that (i.e. 7 gives 2, 8 gives 3)... |
Er, no, no it doesn't. Any Strength between 6 and 10 or so offers a single point, 11-16 or somesuch is another point, and 17 and up is 3 points of RC.
Numbers pulled out of my arse, but that's the general scale. No 3 RC for cybered humans.
~J
kevyn668
Jan 27 2004, 09:16 PM
QUOTE |
Siege Posted on Jan 27 2004, 09:07 PM Look at it this way: if you can find a weapon that fits your particular needs with a minimum of tweaking, you have more time for other things that also demand your attention. |
My needs for a pistol tend to be pretty simple: Intimidate those I can. Shoot those I can't.
I agree w/ Seige. I generally don't like custom guns. It could be years of that Other Game influencing me, but I don't like to rely on modifers if I can avoid it. A gun, the bad guys/good guys (depending on your perspective) [read: GM] can take from you. Often times just when you need those mods the most...
Austere Emancipator
Jan 27 2004, 09:17 PM
Actually it's 6-11 for 1 RC, 12-18 for 2 and 19+ for 3. But not in my game.
Velocity
Jan 27 2004, 09:39 PM
QUOTE |
Siege wrote: Look at it this way: if you can find a weapon that fits your particular needs with a minimum of tweaking, you have more time for other things that also demand your attention. |
Very true. I'm just reminded of the old
Punisher comics, where Frank spent his waking hours either shooting people or tweaking his shooters so they'd shoot people better. You and
kevyn668 both make good points, but I still think it's worth investing the time and currency into customizing your weapons. One doesn't have to use a custom-built gun as a crutch, but it is nice to have.
kevyn668
Jan 27 2004, 09:41 PM
Fair enough
Siege
Jan 27 2004, 11:36 PM
Heh. Didn't the Punisher have a geeky sidekick who specialized in customizing gear as necessary?
There's a couple of key distinctions:
1. Building completing custom weapon systems from scratch
2. Tweaking your weapon for relatively minor upgrades
3. Tweaking your weapon for major upgrades
If you wanna build your weapon from scratch, knock yourself out. See my reasoning above. It's time consuming and if you have no other demands on your time, can produce some interesting results. Especially if your GM hasn't thoroughly reviewed the CCC guide.
![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif)
I fall into the "minor upgrade" area -- whether that's swapping out smartlinks for lasersights and custom grips. Relatively minor stuff that makes the gun "er".
I've never had call for making major upgrades to a weapon which includes things like: installing Gas Vents 4 and so on. That falls in the province of a samurai who lives and breathes weapons.
-Siege
Teulisch
Jan 28 2004, 01:21 AM
as far as custom guns from the CC go...
Heavy pistol, SA/BF, improved conceal 2, improved FCU 4, increased power 1, heavy barrel, recoil comp 1, weight decrease 6, Internal smartlink-2, folding stock, extended clip (50c),
All for a total of $4050 and 3.5kg at conceal 7 and RC 3, 10M, 50c.
thats about as good as a pistol can get, by the rules in the book. I wonder how long till Ares figures this out and starts manufacturing them?
Siege
Jan 28 2004, 01:47 AM
Extended mag w/ 50 rounds?
In a machine pistol? Eek.
-Siege
FlakJacket
Jan 28 2004, 02:05 AM
Granted if you want to be a rules lawyer, since it doesn't actually say anything anywhere about concealability modifiers for adding extra ammo capacity. So you just have to use some common sense on the matter.
Siege
Jan 28 2004, 02:22 AM
I was just thinking if you're gonna go with the 50 round mag, you might as well step up to the SMG or chopped AR platforms.
Not even trying to rules-lawyer it, but gawddamn...that has to be a massive weapon. You might get better results from using different platforms.
-Siege
RedmondLarry
Jan 28 2004, 02:37 AM
SMG ammo bounces off of hardened armor. This big pistol can get through. 13S with a burst with no recoil penalty.
But I'm afraid the grip will probably be too big for my hand.
Siege
Jan 28 2004, 02:45 AM
QUOTE (OurTeam @ Jan 28 2004, 02:37 AM) |
SMG ammo bounces off of hardened armor. This big pistol can get through. 13S with a burst with no recoil penalty.
But I'm afraid the grip will probably be too big for my hand. |
Erk?
Anyway, if you look at the Ares Crusader, the weapon has a bullpup layout which means the grip doesn't have to accomodate a massive magazine.
Although if the fragging Crusader carries a 40 round mag with a Concealability of 6, go for it.
-Siege
Edited: I suppose I should explain my "erk" -- your point is right. Disturbing, but absolutely right by canon.
FlakJacket
Jan 28 2004, 02:50 AM
QUOTE (Siege) |
QUOTE (OurTeam @ Jan 28 2004, 02:37 AM) | SMG ammo bounces off of hardened armor. This big pistol can get through. 13S with a burst with no recoil penalty.
But I'm afraid the grip will probably be too big for my hand. |
Erk?
|
Heavy Pistol has a base damage of 9/10 M whilst a SMG has a lower 6/7 M rating. Which is why pistols will often penetrate hardened armour better than SMG's.
Siege
Jan 28 2004, 02:57 AM
QUOTE (FlakJacket) |
QUOTE (Siege @ Jan 28 2004, 02:45 AM) | QUOTE (OurTeam @ Jan 28 2004, 02:37 AM) | SMG ammo bounces off of hardened armor. This big pistol can get through. 13S with a burst with no recoil penalty.
But I'm afraid the grip will probably be too big for my hand. |
Erk?
|
Heavy Pistol has a base damage of 9/10 M whilst a SMG has a lower 6/7 M rating. Which is why pistols will often penetrate hardened armour better than SMG's.
|
See my edited response above.
You're right, but I repeat my "erk" on general principles.
![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif)
-Siege
FlakJacket
Jan 28 2004, 03:03 AM
Four layers of hardened armour on a vehicle or drone and you need either a shotgun or AV ammunition to scratch the things.
Austere Emancipator
Jan 28 2004, 05:41 AM
The fact that heavy pistols penetrate hardened armor was enough "Erk" to stop me from reading further.
darloth
Jan 29 2004, 01:03 AM
I'm fairly sure EX explosive ammo modifies the power of the round regarding armour.
After all, its a single projectile, rather than power-ups from burst...
So that armour four vehicle can be shot by someone using an ares predator and EX-EX... with the low bodies on most vehicles, it'll probably still take moderate damage if the user is fairly skilled.
And heavy armour is fairly easy to penetrate, other than the heavy hardened armour, which really does manage to ignore almost everything smaller than a shotgun.
FlakJacket
Jan 29 2004, 01:14 AM
Really? Well since the descripttion of Explosive/EX-Explosive said they were designed to fragment and explode on impact - pretty much the opposite of armour piercing rounds AFAIK - I figured it didn't count against armour.
Edit: Ah, here we go. The description says that 'For attempts to fire through a barrier , use twice the materials normal Barrier Rating as the target number for the attack'. I always just assumed that meant the plus one or two the the waepons power was ignored against armoured vehicles. Anyway, if armoured glass is a rating eight barrier to begin with, rolling a 16 to scatch it would be unlikely.
Teulisch
Jan 29 2004, 01:44 AM
thats not the worst of it.
Maximum concealibility for guns by those rules:
Holdout- 10
Light/machine- 8
Heavy- 7
SMG- 6
Shotgun- 8 (better than heavy pistol)
Taser- 7
Sport Rifle- 7
Assault Rifle- 9 (better than light pistol)
So i can get an Assault Rifle with conceal 13 under my long coat.
sure, thats 1.5 FCU and 10% less range, but its like a heavy pistol in a concealed holster. with full auto. and i can still get a smartlink and RC 5 at that conceal.
BewilderedGM
Feb 2 2004, 03:19 AM
QUOTE (Siege) |
Edit: I've never liked sliver guns for the specific target selection attached to sliver weapons.
|
Not intended as a bump, but I really like the Sliver. Granted you dont come up against many (any?) unarmored targets, but its still 9M BF gun with a silencer. Against an ave ganger or guard with armor jacket 5/3 thats still "only" 6 points of armor against a 12S on any hit location. Now even a mage with a laser sight and 1 aim action could use this to good effect (+1 tn).
On the other hand if the opposition is wearing bigger armor and bone lacing...but still, Its one of my fave guns
Siege
Feb 2 2004, 04:02 AM
QUOTE (BewilderedGM) |
QUOTE (Siege @ Jan 27 2004, 10:12 AM) | Edit: I've never liked sliver guns for the specific target selection attached to sliver weapons.
|
Not intended as a bump, but I really like the Sliver. Granted you dont come up against many (any?) unarmored targets, but its still 9M BF gun with a silencer. Against an ave ganger or guard with armor jacket 5/3 thats still "only" 6 points of armor against a 12S on any hit location. Now even a mage with a laser sight and 1 aim action could use this to good effect (+1 tn). On the other hand if the opposition is wearing bigger armor and bone lacing...but still, Its one of my fave guns
|
I don't think of it as a bump -- and your points are all valid.
Still prefer my Savalette though.
![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif)
-Siege
BewilderedGM
Feb 2 2004, 05:33 AM
QUOTE (Siege) |
I don't think of it as a bump -- and your points are all valid.
Still prefer my Savalette though. ![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif)
-Siege |
Hehhe....cant recall exactly but not in same pricerange are they? Given a free choice Id choose the same because op more customization options
Fresno Bob
Feb 2 2004, 06:15 AM
QUOTE (BewilderedGM) |
Not intended as a bump, but I really like the Sliver. Granted you dont come up against many (any?) unarmored targets, but its still 9M BF gun with a silencer. Against an ave ganger or guard with armor jacket 5/3 thats still "only" 6 points of armor against a 12S on any hit location. Now even a mage with a laser sight and 1 aim action could use this to good effect (+1 tn). On the other hand if the opposition is wearing bigger armor and bone lacing...but still, Its one of my fave guns |
Most people don't like it because of its stats. Burst Fire, Suppressed, and it holds 30 rounds, while being smaller than the Predator, yet using the same ammo type. Its a bit...how do you say in the english language...extrapowered.
Siege
Feb 2 2004, 02:20 PM
QUOTE (Voorhees @ Feb 2 2004, 06:15 AM) |
QUOTE (BewilderedGM) | Not intended as a bump, but I really like the Sliver. Granted you dont come up against many (any?) unarmored targets, but its still 9M BF gun with a silencer. Against an ave ganger or guard with armor jacket 5/3 thats still "only" 6 points of armor against a 12S on any hit location. Now even a mage with a laser sight and 1 aim action could use this to good effect (+1 tn). On the other hand if the opposition is wearing bigger armor and bone lacing...but still, Its one of my fave guns |
Most people don't like it because of its stats. Burst Fire, Suppressed, and it holds 30 rounds, while being smaller than the Predator, yet using the same ammo type. Its a bit...how do you say in the english language...extrapowered.
|
Overpowered? I've never had a GM complain about it in game, but then I've never seen any player actually carry it as a weapon of choice.
BeWildered: The Sav is roughly 3k, street value. Which is why you buy it at CG and make sure you don't lose it.
![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif)
-Siege
Edit: And the Predator doesn't use the same ammo type as the Sliver gun. By definition, the sliver gun uses slivers while the Predator uses standard rounds.
toturi
Feb 2 2004, 02:59 PM
QUOTE (Siege) |
Overpowered? I've never had a GM complain about it in game, but then I've never seen any player actually carry it as a weapon of choice.
BeWildered: The Sav is roughly 3k, street value. Which is why you buy it at CG and make sure you don't lose it. ![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif)
-Siege
Edit: And the Predator doesn't use the same ammo type as the Sliver gun. By definition, the sliver gun uses slivers while the Predator uses standard rounds. |
The AVS uses fletchettes.
Siege
Feb 2 2004, 03:06 PM
Slivers, fletchettes...same difference.
![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif)
-Siege
Austere Emancipator
Feb 2 2004, 03:13 PM
QUOTE (Voorhees) |
Most people don't like it because of its stats. Burst Fire, Suppressed, and it holds 30 rounds, while being smaller than the Predator, yet using the same ammo type. Its a bit...how do you say in the english language...extrapowered. |
I think there is a number of folk that don't like it because it's a bit ... fucked up. Regardless of how powerful it really is.
You could fire AVS ammo from any weapon that fires Heavy Pistol ammo, couldn't you?
Siege
Feb 2 2004, 03:24 PM
I'm of the opinion that no, you can't because if you could it would be listed as a special ammo option and not a specific pistol type.
-Siege
CanvasBack
Feb 2 2004, 04:32 PM
To the people consider the AVS to be overpowering, what do you consider the Ruger Thunderbolt to be? A Burst fire heavy pistol that suffers no recoil penalty on the first shot and a "special" +4 recoil penalty on the second. And since it's BF only, the base damage is 12S and doesen't suffer the penalties of using flechette ammo against armored targets.
Granted, the Thunderbolt is normally found in the hands of LoneStar personnel, and there are mucho in game social penalties to be dealt with if your runner uses them. One thing you can't say about LoneStar is that they carry crappy pistols because frankly the Thunderbolt pretty much outclasses all of them, burst fire or not.
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