So I've been developing this "Ghettopunk" character on the side, for fun, should the opportunity to play a 300 BP game arise. Part of the backstory is that he has two younger siblings, much younger. He's an ork, that is he was born one. His two siblings, non-identical twins, have yet to "express as robustus" and probably won't. (I'm working on the assumption that human parents can have an Ork child still.)

Anyway, things get bad, then badder, then baddest. They've moved to the Barrens, and my character's failed stab at stardom has left him slightly bitter. He is, however, a practical kinda guy and joins up with others in the area for "mutual protection and pursuit of common goals for the greater good"... in other words, a gang. I'd say he's getting old, for an Ork, roughly 18.

The kids are 10-12.

And it seems I'm getting a tad overprotective of these kids. It's a bad 'hood. So I got them Armoured Vests as they walk to and from the free "school" nearby. I've given them each a Defiance EX Shocker, Yamaha Pulsar, Survival Knife, 2 Rattan Sticks (they're filipino and my character's training them). Oh, and umm two Seco LD-120s.

Of course they won't be carrying all those weapons around all the time. In my mind they have "Pistols 0", meaning they're not untrained nor trained. They've been... educated about a gun's use, so there's no penalty or bonus (except the lasersight on the Secos).

I know they probably won't be able to go after serious opposition, but do you think this is enough? I figure one of the tasers, the suvival knife, and the pistol they'd carry with them while wearing the vests to school. They're just humans though. These kids might have to scare off some crazed addict, shoot some devil rats, fight off a corrupt cop or humanis fool (harassing them because of their ork older bro), and of course generally not die.

For those familiar with Advanced Lifestyles I took a Neighbourhood 1 with the Rough Neighbourhood Quality. So it's fairly bad.

I wanna give them some cheap shotguns and sport rifles too, since my char's a Longarms lover.

Thoughts? Should I spring for more protection, say a helmet?

personal opinion: it would be cheaper to buy them a doberman with an AK-47 and have it respond to voice commands from them only (as well as automatically attacking anyone who attacks the kids).

not saying you shouldn't arm them and train them, just saying there may be other options as well.

I was thinking a Rotodrone myself, but keep in mind that every piece of gear is below 4R rating. Should've mentioned that, only the Aztechnology Crawler qualifies, and it'll get pricey modding in a Weapon Mount.

Besides in a "Ghettopunk" setting the drone'll probably make the kids a target.

..I was thinking that if its that dangerous they should -not- be walking around by their lonesomes and should have an adult with them, and probably driving them back and forth to places.

That sounds a tiny bit excessive to me. I'd say some basic armor (Have to be light, as children they would have low body scores) and a taser would be your best options. Also, a skill of 0 is what all metahumans naturally possess in everything. I know what your trying to say "A lack of bonuses and a lack of penalties" but I'm fairly sure that would still fall under a skill of 1. Given that they likely have agi 2-3 a skill of 1 would give them a reasonable chance to at least potentially graze something.

Makes complete sense. Each child should have one piece of super-thick, can't walk armor, and one piece of armor light enough to operate day-to-day without trouble. Each child should have, at minimum, a light handgun (probably in the Light or Medium pistol class). It'll likely have a small magazine, because bullets will be single-stack. It may be a polymer frame or something, to account for weight, and with as much recoil compensation as you can reasonably put on it without adding weight (so probably just gas vents). This is the carry piece. Additionally, each child should have a self-defense long-arm, probably a shotgun. Shotgun gives the most spread, making it an ideal defensive weapon. For a child you want SA, but it would have a small magazine, a custom stock, and is likely sawn off to reduce the weight (this will also reduce the power, but oh well). I don't know if you'd go with shot or slug. Depends on how likely you think they are to hit (in SR3, go shot). Depending on the area, this is either the 'at-home' gun, or possibly a second, visible carry piece.

I would not go rifles, except as practice. The advantage of rifles is medium to long range. At medium to long range, the kids should be running and hiding, not fighting. They'd probably have some .22s or maybe a .32 for practice and varmint hunting, but probably nothing bigger. If they have something bigger, it's sort of the 'you're a man now' gun, but still not the desired self-defense weapon (and would be in the middle of the sizes, probably your low-end hunting rifle).

They're untrained as per p119 of SR4A, not "No Rating / Unaware". Really what it means is that there's no defaulting penalty for them in my mind. Just pure Agi + Bonuses.

Untrained means they know which end to point and where's the trigger.

TDG it's the Ghetto. Driving around in a really bad neighbourhood is driving around with a target on you. I do agree about the escort part, but the weapons are for when they're not under my character's (and the gang's) protection.

A 10-12 year old would have a body of 1-2? Hmm perhaps something lighter. Heavy Pistols are out of the question right?

So far they have:

Armoured Vest
Defiance EX Shocker (also usable in melee)
Yamaha Pulsar
Seco LD-120 (Light Pistol, SA, 12C, Personalized Grip: which I think is essential since they're young, makes it overall easier to grasp and wield)
Some knives, rattan sticks

Hmm a few cheap shotties should be there too.

The Defiance T-250 Short Barrelled version operates at Heavy Pistol ranges but only does 5P AP0. Why don't I just get the long-barrelled version, saw off the barrels with the Barrel Reduction mod, and keep the 7P damage? Oh well.

The T-250 seems to be the only alternative, the other is the Remington 990 which my character uses.

They may have to fend off attackers to the home too, so a sport rifle could come in handy. But I guess I can acquire that through the game.

Seriously, how well armed and protected are the kids in the Barrens?

That's not what the rules say. Having a "0" (as in, not having the skill) means you have to default, so you roll Agi-1. And that's the level every civilized human has by default, so you've basically tought your kid brothers nothing. Having "no rating" is the computer skill of a person from before the information age and means you can't default at all.
Being bad at something, but at least having had a minimum of practise is skill 1.

And no amount of small arms is going to keep a bunch of kids safe in the barrens, so get them into the gang (they're old enough to be drug runners) and have the colors protect them. Much more effective (and precisely the point of 'hood gangs).

What I'm saying is that it's what "it means to me for these kids". 0 but no defaulting penalty. Gets? I'm not saying they're at 0, they're not at 1. They're 0.5? 0+? It's just in my head. They don't default to suffer a penalty. They just don't have the experience yet to get at 1.

By extension they are, and so is everyone else's family, just by necessity. It was formed, after all, to protect the people in the neighbourhood. At least, those that weren't actively trying to kill them.

How sure are you the kids wouldn't use the guns in a situation other than being attacked. I can see some serius plot hooks/bad shit happening hear if you arn't carful.
Also RFD the kids, with pedophilas, organ leggers, cops, ghouls, trained kidnappers, and god knows what else it would be a good backup to be able to trace them.

Also haveing a good loyalty contact, "Keep an eye on them" might also be good. Don't have him walk them cross the street just make sure they get pass certian points and be ready should things go to dreck. Better tell the kids though so they don't plug the weird dude following them full of led. (Works good if it someone the kids know)
Also haveing the decker provide some servailance might be a little much but if your supper paranoid might not be to much. (Ok thats a little over the top though if they DO get kidnapped have him try and find out useing what street cams that havn't been bashed by punks.)

If they don't have this level of experience, they should be defaulting. This is basically you have held a gun and pulled the trigger a few times If you've given them -any- amount of training they are at this level, if not well on their way to 2 already. Even if you haven't given them any training they likely would have picked up a skill of 1 just by a tiny bit of practice.

They're in between. They have yet to have the practice to get the skill at 1. I shouldn't even have mentioned this, but this isn't a gameplay thing, it's just how I'm resolving their skill in my head. I don't know why there's this fixation on it.

Didn't your GMs ever take 1 Karma and added 1 die of "specialization" before you could get the second Karma point and get the second one? Kinda like that.

Also, skill rating 1 is being a bit glib. Compare the Firearm to Social examples... a telemarketer may not be the best skilled at socializing but they do that for 8 hours a day. To me, these kids aren't that experienced yet. They need more formal training and experience, not just shooting it a few times at devil rats with big brother watching with a shotgun.

Also, I don't expect a GM to rule it this way. Just a minor mental resolution is all.




Thinking of it like the "Wild West". Everyone had guns but didn't go shooting each other, decent folk that is. But it is a danger to everyone around, but it's probably more dangerous for them not to be armed.

Yeah, they're Dependents so I expect bad things to happen. They may get emotional enough and take a few potshots at a rival gang or something, or get cheesed at a cop.

I'm almost positive that they will use the guns beyond just self-defense.

RFIDs, good idea. Stealth or Security RFIDs.



I figure the gang'll look out for all the kids and dependents and whatnot. That's why that drone idea appealed to me, if it responded only to the family members then it'd be a great protector. I'll make getting one a priority if a game ever starts.

Modest caliber pistols, ditto AR-15 type weapons. 20-gauge shotguns as well. If you've got the cash, some form of recoil compensation will help offset the kids' lighter builds, allowing heavier weapons.

Basing this advice off my youth, and a friend's kids.

So you think they'd be okay with Assault Rifles? Or at the very least, SMGs or Carbines?

Hmm, we do have scrawny child soldiers nowadays with AKs. The problem would be training as my character can't teach them automatics, he doesn't know the skill.

I haven't seen any cheap shotguns either. They all seem to be fairly mid-to-high end. Not a lot of cash. Think it's fair for them to wield Heavy Pistols though? A good ol' Colt Manhunter or something.

Bah, just give them Streetline Specials. Cheap and disposable in case Little Jimmy accidentily shoots the wrong person.

I don't think there is any (mechanical) difference between a light pistol, holdout, and heavy pistol as far as difficulty with wielding goes. I mean, they're children, not babies, and they are likely fairly fit anyway if you're living in a poor part of town or something similar.

tutorsofts are not terribly expensive. pirated tutorsofts are even cheaper. open source tutorsofts are free.

The question'd be access. Though you're right it'd be doable.

I got them Colt Manhunters and quickdraw holsters, we have matching guns now. I've sunk a whole 5000 into these kids. In fact, I need some longarms for home defense for their use. That's at least 2000 more for two pairs of Defiance T-250s and a Remington 750.

I think I may be overdoing this, hehe. I'll leave it with the small arms, for now.

Little kids aren't protected in the Barrens by being given bulky armored vests, sport rifles, tasers, and rattan sticks. They're protected in the Barrens by being known to belong there, and by the reputation of whoever's laid claim to be protecting them.

Give 'em a carry piece if you want, say they carry around some Escrima sticks when it's practical, but stick to low-key armored clothing (not something that will make it LOOK like they're scared), and don't worry about all the rest of that crap. Your character has to protect them by spreading the word that they're protected, not by loading them down with all that crap to carry to "school" (which isn't really a Barrens thing, but whatever).

Giving a couple ten years olds a popgun or two isn't gonna do anything against a determined attacker, anyways, in Shadowrun.

Some really good points. Looking like they belong and offering out the fact that anything that happens to them is interpreted as being done to you (And you having a decent rep) is going to do more than loading them out with full combat armor and enough weaponry to assault a military base.

I'd say toss them a Seco LD-120 (light pistol with integrated laser sight) with a clip of SnS rounds (Best they don't kill anyone, and much more effective for a novice) and give them some armor clothing. When they hit someone with the SnS they should likely use the time that the person is convulsing on the ground to run for it. So yeah, that puts the total cost at just over 2k, gives them a decent chance to look out for themselves, and hopefully your rep will act as all the protection they'll need.

Devil rats, ghouls, rival gangs, generic bad people? It might scare them off.

No, they're not gonna carry around the Sport Rifles. The Rattan sticks are for home training. Yes, the people in the 'hood aren't going to harass them... my character'd be part of the gang that's protecting the 'hood and those in it.

It's the other people that are the problem. And other things that aren't people.

The "school" is an outreach thing, I'm sure they have that in the ghettos. Some sort of missionary effort to educate and whatnot.

That's not meant to be dismissive, I mean to my mind if there are kids in the Barrens and they need to go out sometime. How would they be armed and armoured? Beyond being protected by a gang and belonging there, they need some self-defense do they not?

No more than kids in the south side of Chicago need body armor and sidearms.

Few people target random little kids. It pisses off a lot of people and demonstrates that you can beat up little kids. Ooh, scary. The primary defense is that people know that attacking kids won't be tolerated and people who do get beaten to death. Plus if they are related to someone who will take it very personally and hunt them down that's an even better deterrent.

If someone has a personal grudge against you and is willing to attack the kids to hurt you it's unlikely that the kids are going to do much against a sniper, bomb or similar attack.

If people get attacked on the street by critters then protection against them would need to be developed, but is that doesn't seem to be what you are talking about.

Don't scare easy.

I don't see a light pistol with a 2-3 dice pool stopping ANYTHING with physical stats like your average ghoul.

Are going to leave your women and children alone, because you're going to leave their women and children alone. Your kids getting hit in the crossfire of a driveby? Maybe. Your kids being specifically targeted by an enemy gang, with that gang knowing the repercussions of such an action, and then them being scared out of it by a ten year old with a light pistol? Not gonna happen.

What are they doing in such a dangerous neighborhood, picking on gang families? Those are generic STUPID AS HELL bad people, and your gang sucks if they don't run their 'hood enough that shit like that doesn't happen.

Or it might make your preteen siblings look like big, scared, targets, each waddling around with a whole bunch of wiz stuff that they can't effectively use to protect themselves, but which is all still worth a whole bunch of money.

Protect the kids by letting 'em be kids, letting 'em blend into the neighborhood, and by making sure everyone knows they're yours.

In part the question is what would children or teenagers in the Barrens be carrying around to protect themselves?

I can go bug-nuts and outfit them like wannabe Street Sams if they just wanna go outside. I know the guns they do have aren't exactly going to scare away determined attackers. But surely something might be scared off... low level organleggers, perhaps some critters, or toughies of some sort.

If the choice is between letting them go unarmed and arming them, I vote for arming them. But it seems that no one thinks giving them guns just for deterence is a good idea, with reference to external threats: not the people from the 'hood.

The Rough Neighbourhood quality for the Advanced Lifestyle rules in RC suggests that the crime rate is actually double that of the 'hood you select. And I selected a Low-level hood, still the Barrens but probably a higher-crime area than normal. Not as rundown as 0-level Squatter areas, but with a lot of crime traffic. I might even pick up "Worse Neighbours" and make it all be very much horrid to live in that area, but for now assume slightly above Squatter levels but with a lot of crime. Twice as much more crime than other similar areas.

It's not even the rival gangs that would concern me, it's everything else.

I gotta admit, this whole 'don't bother arming your kids. They're only minors wandering the most dangerous parts of Seattle in the Shadowrun universe were monsters literally prowl dark alleyways and corporations set up secret labs to test terrible, torturous technologies on unwilling human subjects...' thing seems a little short-sighted to me.

YES, ARM THEM. At 10, some barrens kids are already full-fledged gang members. Your kids may not be valid targets for 99% of the threats out there, but there's still that 1% unaccounted for. A pop-gun may not do much, but at least it gives them a chance. The only reason NOT to arm them is to show that you have such big cajones, that anybody else would have to be STUPID to mess with them, because you won't just kill the attacker, you will kill his family, destroy the block he lives on, and erase him from written history. But that still won't help against devil rats and ghouls.

Exactly. It's that 1% that has me concerned.

Armoured Vests are similar to the things you can wear under your shirts nowadays, perhaps even lighter, so I figure that's not out of place. Stray bullets and the like.

They'll carry a taser, a quick-draw holstered firearm, and maybe a hidden knife.

Again, it's the barrens. I would assume armored jackets are just the way people live. You have to remember that, even if the rules don't support it, stray shots during drive-bys happen. Kids die every day in safer (haha) places like Chicago because some dude is mad at some other dude, and can't shoot straight because his gangsta keeps getting in the way, and some sweet little girl gets waxed because she didn't have the foresight to wear armor to kindergarten that day.

Your kids should *definitely* wear armor. The question is whether they wear a helmet or not. A cautious parent would say yes, btu they'd get teased for it at school. And there's really no reason NOT to have your kids carry a sidearm, except if it's to show you have such monster huge cajones that your kids are special and above having to lift their hands to defend themselves (the same way your kids might not have to mow the lawn, because you're so big and awesome you can hire a guy to do that for you).