And in order to have a decent chance of damaging the drone they've got to be throwing over 15 dice. After smoke, distractions, nausea from gas grenades, partial cover, etc it'll be hard for some to muster up 15 dice unless they're using edge. And you can afford more drones than the opposition can afford edge points.

Fire from full cover.

A sammy can fire through a cover or around it with a grenade. A mage who does not have an Indirect combat spell is screwed.

Wouldnt that mean all air is a physical barrier? If you cant see through smoke in astral space, who says you can see through nitrogen?

You're Kidding... Right?

In a nutshell: if it blocks physical sight by putting shit in front of your eyes (smoke, blizzard, mist, etc) it obscures the astral. If it does so by technological or magical trickery (chameleon suit, magical spell) it does not. In the case of technology, this is because you're manipulating light, and in the case of spells, it's because they don't cross the barrier into the astral plane, and exist only on one plane at a time.

The conceal power is the only reliable way to be 'invisible' in the astral.

I disagree that the costs of a ward is that great, given the fact that long term contracts only tend to lower prices, and like most security, merely the fact that it is there is going to serve as a preventive measure, unfortunently it doesn't seem possible to create "fake wards" so we are left with the real deal only.

I'll also point out that the idea of the mirror shield would be very effective.

Even if there was bleed over from the aura of the arm, it would still just be the aura of the arm visible.

So thats at least +4 for cover.

Does RAW state that shields provide cover?

and pray the mage isn't astrally perceiving to target you, and has no spirits to warn him of what you're doing.
Also pray you can tell who he is, as a smart one often carries a gun, just to hide the fact he's a mage.

He could probably be wearing a Chameleon Suit too, or at least a Camo Suit. Geek the mage only works if you can tell who the mage is after all. And it works for both sides.

What to take from this? Smoke Grenades are great.

Assuming he doesn't have a silence spell up too, or some physical illusion spell which deadens all sound waves leaving the character, which would be no harder then invisibility. Or make a multi-sense invisibility spell.

Unless he casts invisibility on a spirit, and gives it a grenade to stuff down said sammy's pants. The spirit can just fade to the astral before the grenade explodes, the sammy on the other hand.... not so very lucky

Its 50 square meters per magic point of the creators. Most wage mages will have a 4 magic. Also given the nature of the drain effects, any ward over force 4 likely did its creator physical damage, meaning they would have charged far more then the 100/hour to make it. Also that is only 200 cubic meters. Given the 9 foot ceilings are not uncommon in most offices and stores, this means 70 square meters of floor space per applicaiton, or only about 630 square feet per ward. The average office building has how many square feet? It would be only cost effective to use them at choke points. Also now given the fact people with various qualities can now collapse wards by walking through them, said choke points are going to force these very people through the wards and collapse them on a fairly regular. exactly how common do you really think they are going to be? They virtually can NOT exist anywhere with reasonable public access.

I see them as being fairly common, albeit at low Force, but then again I also agree that people who collaspe wards by their very nature are going to be discrimated against, I don't see the Sixth World as being a happy or fuzzy place, espically for those who require "special" accomendations in order to merely exist.

Fairly common.

You can do it solo, or you can group up. Anyone with Magic 1 or up can join in. That includes people with the Astral Sight 5 BP quality. Fine the 100¥ per hour is negotiable, but that's for each person in the group, and the figure is official. They did say "around" 100¥.

The fact is, you don't need a high Force Ward everywhere. You just want security and peace of mind that some wandering astral observer isn't peeking in.

Also, you're not limited to one Ward per person or group of people. You guarantee on a contract that you'll protect an area for X amount of nuyen, then you show up whenever you need to, to keep it operational.

How common will those people who can walk through and collapse wards be exactly? And Wards aren't really there to provide protection, they're there as a trip alarm. Whoever set them up will know if they go down, and it's a commlink call away (possibly even automated) to trigger an alarm.

You're not going to ward the entire office building unless you're doing secret research on every level. But certainly boardrooms, exec suites, the high-up washrooms, etc.

No, the diner down the street won't have a Force 4 Ward protecting it. But that new club might.

I can only really disagree with the point about the commcalls being automated, whoever set the ward up is going to have to make the call manually.

What is the exact wording in the book? I am not too sure if a ward collapsing due to background count will alert the person who set them up.

Having played a mage for about 9 years, yes, this is what you do.

But the OP was asking HOW you handle a mage and defend against him. This assumes you A) know where the fuck he is, because if you don't, you might as well ask "How do I stop getting killed?" (the answer is, of course, figure out who keeps killing you) and B) the mage isn't OMG WTF BBQ prepped to the 9s, because if your OPFOR is prepped, you're probably dead anyway.

But. In answer to your concerns sequentially:

1) If he's percieving, yes, you are boned. But you can still choose to use stealth when manouvering, in the hopes you are better at sneaking than he is at seeing.
2) Even if the spirits can warn him, if you go before they do, it's not a problem. The mage does not mystically know what they know - they have to take an action to tell him. Otherwise there would be no such thing as "surprising a mage".
3) Telling who he is, if he is Raoul the Bad-Ass, is trivial. He is casting high force spells - high enough that the threshold to notice him spellcasting is 0, or 1 if you favor the opinion that you must always roll. Easy to do.
4) I would f'ing hope Raoul carries a gun. Hell, my mage carried 2 heavy pistols, 2 machine pistols, an ares alpha, and a long rifle 'just in case'. You best come armed if you're ambushing dudes.

I've checked Running Wild and Nimue Salamanders might be a bit too rare to be used commonly by a Shadowrunner, but there are a lot of paranormal critters with the counterspelling skill. So I guess you could find one that you could bring along with you on a run.

And that guy was the guy who installed the security system, or is that guy a very low skilled person? Plus, that guy has leverage, he can monitor ANY number of alarm systems - the span of control is very large.

Contrast this to a manned checkpoint (a much closer parallel to mage manned wards) - you need more skills for the guy on the ground, and you need support for him. This radically drives up costs.

Finally, the guy in the call centre actually calls someone else to respond, he doesn't do it personally - but the mage has to do it personally, because he has to be onsite to respond. Consider how many people walk through the doors of a mega mall every 5 minutes. If the mage is asleep (and everyone has to sleep) when the breech occurs, it's going to be seriously atleast 5 minutes for him to find his pants and DNI, then he has to look up who to ring for that breech. So you get a call from the mage saying 'about 5 minutes ago, some guy broke your wards on the east side entrance!'

What does that even tell you?



Seriously, alarm systems are an extremely bad comparison. Mages have extremely valuable skills, and do not have the same span of control as an alarm system operator.

So why the hell someone developed the “Petite Brume” Grenade? It has just a "light mist" effect in astral. For 1000 .
And the AIR is also a kind of phisical barrier, I think...

Basically the "bring a drone" strategy is all about keeping the wiz from hitting you with a manaball since those only affect living creatures. That's the only combat spell which ignores armor and is resisted only by willpower. Also, the whole control thoughts/actions shtick.

But, yeah, when your group troll can resist damage with his body of 13 and half his 20+ impact armor, (plus the 6 appropriate elemental resistance,) then that mage just cashed his check by sticking his neck out. Not a good play for him, so I don't see him rushing to make it.

And, invisibility? Please. You can fit UltraWideBand Radar into a Fly-Spy. By the time you turn that corner, you should know there's a guy with nothing artificial inside him except a half-digested burrito hiding 100m that-a-way. Then it's just a matter of how nasty you want him to die. Ol magey won't be seeing much after you stick your MGL-6 arond the corner and airburst a Gas Grenade full of Ekyelebenle Venom right in his puss. How's your line of sight now, chummer?

So, yeah. How you beat a mage is same as how you beat anyone else. Know more, act faster, hit harder.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was that it'd be one mental click away for the mage in his AR, a simple button that said to this company "Ward down". Not that it'd be done automatically with no input. Just that he wouldn't have to dial, wait for a link, etc. A preset link basically.

A Ward collapsing due to any reason should alert the fella(s) that made said ward.

not unless it is a mirror made for laser optics. Most domestic mirrors are made of glass and silver. Silver will reflect UV very well, but IR not at all. As for the glass it just can not handle the thermal load. Though you could make a "cheep" laser shield by taking a thick (3-5mm) copper sheet. shape it however you like and attach a good water cooling device to the back, as well as you handles and what ever you like. Then get the front electro formed formed with 24k gold .01-.02mm thick. For a large shield that is about half an ounce of gold. Do not forget to keep it highly polished.

I would call this a "laser hardened" armor. Though it is just a shield so it dose not give you the total protection of a hardened suit. That said any laser hitting the shield would just reflect off in some random froward arc. up to power 16 perhaps 18, then it would just reduce damage.

Assuming you can see him at all with Radar. It uses photons just like any other from of vision, and so should be screwed by improved invis.

This one stuck with me for a while (mostly because I also noticed the increased usage of 'Chamo').




I think Chamaeleon-o-flage should be a brand name for ruthenium polymer suits!

Feel free to use it in your games ^^

I have not found any rule that states that a ward collapsing would alert its creator however. The only relevant line I have found is:
A ward collapsing due to Background Count is neither an attack on a mana barrier nor is it an attempt to break through per se.

RAW states that radar works against invisibility. Don't have books at work, but I'm sure someone out there can provide page number reference. Also, if the mage uses silence spell to counter ultrasound he's going to leave a 'blank spot' in viewer's display that will tag his location. Wouldn't be enough for precise targeting, but would give enough info for a carefully placed grenade.

I disagree Cthulhudreams, all the mage has to do is call the owner, and with a simple 'jack that is easy to do within a few seconds/minutes as Marwynn has pointed out. Of course the Mage is going to charge extra if he has to respond in person, but most of the time he won't have to.

Ahem with a small break from decorum...Check the sig! Check the sig!
Do not ckeck you comlink normal service has now resumed.

There's always indirect combat spells. Higher drain but you don't need to see anyone for those to work.

I can't see you but know you are there (by virtue of that massive cloud of LOS breaking thermal smoke), I'm tossing my baddest AOE indirect spell where that cloud is (this assumes I'm outside of it).

Besides, if I'm willing to cast it, I can probably survive it with little to no damage.

I'd like to add my opinion to this. Radar and Ultrasound works by reading the reflections. The only time a silence spell would leave a 'blank spot' is if there was something behind the player that should have been reflecting the signal back. If there's nothing behind the player, then no reflection would be expected, so the blank spot wouldn't be noticed amidst the larger blank spot.

How does spirit Concealment nest with Silence and Improved Invisibility? Do you apply Concealment first, then the spells, or spells first and powers after?

I would apply only the better bonus for any given situation.

For instance, for visual perception, if a guy has -4 to perception checks for invisbility, and a -6 due to Conceal, the conceal takes precedence. If the test is auditory, the invisbility does nothing, but Conceal (being anti-everything) still takes effect.

I don't remember if this is by RAW, but it's the only sane way to do things, IMO.

Well, with visibility mods, for the one looking allways only the one that is best for the looking person applies . .

I'm sorrry, Stahl, I don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean you always count the WEAKER vision penalties when someone is trying to spot a sneaker? Cuz I know that's not true. If I have invisbility and improved invisbility, the first at Force 2, 2 successes, and the second at Force 10, 10 successes, you certainly don't use the Force 2's modifiers.

I think Stahlseele is talking about Vision Modes such as using Low Light, Thermo, Ultrasound, ect...

Yeah, that was it. sorry, wasn't clear enough there <.<

Ahh, okay! Makes much more sense now.

The placing mage is alerted whenever the ward goes down... for the exotic wards, there are other criteria for alerting the caster...

Mages do not have to be on site to respond... send a few spirits to check it out, call in the Response teams, etc... he can do that from the safety of his own living room if he so chooses...

Rasdar is immune to the effects of Improved Invisibility, Chameleon Coating or Camoflauge... there is still a reflection... says so in the equipment's description...

Even for a normal ward, where does it say that the mage is alerted whenever the ward goes down? If there is such a rule, please give me a quote from the book/s.

I have not found anything that says the mage is alerted when the ward goes down. Other types of wards have other criteria but normal wards do not auto-alert the mage when it goes down. The ward only alerts the mage when it is attacked and when something attempts to break through by virtue it is a mana barrier.

I would ask you how the Ward would go down prematurely if it was not "attacked" or something attempted to "break through"... Please provide an example of such an occurrence...

Wards created in a Background Count are ususally attuned to that Background count and would not need to worry about such things... and artificial Background Count (like a Spell creating a BCG, or Astral Hazing, etc) would be an intentional act (placing in in conjunction with the warded area) which I would classify as an "attack" agains the integrity of the ward itself...

But you are right... I cannot find any explicit information that you are asking about...

Keep the Faith

I know it's not explicitly stated, though it is stated that Wards do alert their creator when they're attacked (p.125 Street Magic). But really, if the creator can feel it being under attack or being breached it can't feel it when it goes down?

It's probably one of those things the writers overlooked, they assume that anything that brings down a ward would be an attack.

That is not an attack on the ward, the collapse of the ward is simply a consequence of Background Count. A bad storm moves in, the Background Count increases, ward collapses. A huge 3 day rave gets on, the wards around the party collapse. I assume that there is an explicit rule that states that wards created in a Background Count are usually attuned to that Background Count? If I recall correctly, Background Counts do not have aspects and hence cannot be attuned to.

As well, attacking and attempting to break through a mana barrier is detailed on p194 SR4A. Using a Background Count is not per those rules.


If the ward goes down due to it being attacked, yes, then the creator will be alerted. But not if the ward simple collapses due to other reasons.

I think that we are arguing semantics, but I do understand where you are coming from (since you generally use only what is explicitly stated)... And I had already perused the books that you reference, and there are also some relevant sectrions in Street Magic...

By the Way... I fail to see how a Rave is going to impact a corporate research facilities Wards, but that is really beside the point that was being made... In my opinion (and it is not RAW, as stated previously) Wards are such that any interuption of the integrity of the ward constitutes an "attack"... note that the definition of attack in the book is extremely vague, it just says "attack or attempt to breach"... admittedly, it is semantics on my part as well...

Keep the Faith Toturi...

Then I'd research a multi-sense improved invisibility spell that works on Radar too. Its using the same types of particles to detect you using the same principles as regular vision, just at a different frequency, so it really should be covered, but if its not, make a version which will work.

Anything that generates background count in the area of the ward. Running new born children through a blender near the ward for example would generate a back ground count, but this isn't an 'attack' against the ward. Also the book is kinda specific about attacking wards last I checked, and no, not all wards at aspected to the background count of the area, and I don't even think that is possible to do. You can aspect the background count to the ward, if you're a geomancer, but I've not seen rules saying the reverse is true.

The invis spells are working in the visiable and near visable spectrums though, radar is fairly far off of that range. Even though they are part of the same EM spectrum they are in far off sections of it and different ranges of the EM spectrum exhibit far different properties so are not even very similar.

Keep in mind that the ultrawideband rader at best is rating 4, giving it only 4 dice to try to "see" something, so it really doesnt get much info most of the time.