Dumpshock Forums > Seeking Seattle runners…

Karoline

Nov 1 2009, 02:30 AM

QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Oct 31 2009, 10:18 PM)

Relating to tacsofts, they apparently require an even number of sensors from every person, and work according to the number of sensors. Which sort of makes sense, until you try to figure out how it relates to reality. How many sensor are folks carrying. And if one of us only has his eyes, does that really mean the tacsoft does not give the rest benefits?

Yours,
Joel

Almost everyone should be able to manage at least 3-4. Vision is 1 which almost everyone will have from cybereyes or contacts or goggles or something. Then most people will have Low Light in their contacts, and smartgun counts as a third. Then most everyone will have earbuds for sound which counts as a 4th sensor.

After that it starts to get a bit harder, so I suggest if someone is planning on getting tacsoft they limit it to rating 2.

I do have to agree with the idea that it is odd that a rating 3 can't act like a rating 2 for people who can only provide 4 sensors. The 'all or nothing' thing seems a little weird. It also seems weird that two people with 6 sensors can give each other a +3 bonus, but then someone else can't join up and take advantage of all those bonuses even if they aren't providing any info, but only making use of what the other two have.

I suppose it is one of those old 'game balance over reality' things.

Embers

Nov 1 2009, 03:01 AM

Anyone with a simrig is putting a minimum of 5 senses in. If they have Low light or Thermo thats another sense (or 2). Smartlinks. heck, you can pick up a cheap sensor unit with a bunch of low rating things like radio scanner, MAD, Cyber-Scanner, Olfactory boosters, etc.

Karoline

Nov 1 2009, 03:10 AM

QUOTE (Embers @ Oct 31 2009, 11:01 PM)

Anyone with a simrig is putting a minimum of 5 senses in. If they have Low light or Thermo thats another sense (or 2). Smartlinks. heck, you can pick up a cheap sensor unit with a bunch of low rating things like radio scanner, MAD, Cyber-Scanner, Olfactory boosters, etc.

While I suppose that is true, if I was GM I'd be unlikely to allow taste and touch to count as senses for tacsoft. Same with MAD and Cyber-scanner because both are exceedingly limited in range.

But yeah, people can go out and get a sensor package for not just too much.

Embers

Nov 1 2009, 03:15 AM

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 31 2009, 11:10 PM)

While I suppose that is true, if I was GM I'd be unlikely to allow taste and touch to count as senses for tacsoft. Same with MAD and Cyber-scanner because both are exceedingly limited in range.

But yeah, people can go out and get a sensor package for not just too much.

Taste might be iffy, but I think touch could certainly be viable given that people can feel vibrations in the ground if there is a group of people marching toward you, or an explosion in another area shakes the building, etc. MAD and Cyber-scanners could provide a ton of very important information to a tactical network especially if coupled with the right software, it could tell you if your opponents have implants, if and what they are carrying (which could lead to suggestions as to how to engage).

Kerenshara

Nov 1 2009, 03:43 AM

Couple things to keep in mind: the bonuses eventually top out.

That being said, not everything on the TacNet is just for bonuses; The TacNet is an infomation sharing architecture, allowing all information to be available to all members instantaneously. If somebody has a CyberScanner AND is in range of a target, the system can make guesses about their enhancements, as well as any hidden weapons. The MAD scanner really IS pretty silly unless the person has a lot of chrome/metalic lacing and you just wanted a notice of a very close but moving target on the other side of a wall, for example. Radar is huge. BioMonitors (can be an option in your armor... like FFBA for example?) are also huge because you can immediately know when somebody is injured... and can clue you in to when your magical support is weakening.

Taste and Smell are pointless unless you have some kind of analysis hardware to turn it into concrete data, and again, those are more "informational" than bonuses... like knowing there's a tremendous quantity of nitrates in the air, suggesting an ambush (Claymores are marked "This side towards enemy" for a reason).

Primarily: visual data, auditory data (especially with a directional sensor), orientation sensors (GPS/Inertia), Radar, Ultrasound, Low-Light if applicable, Thermo, Mapping software, and rangefinders all immediately come to mind as to helping with bonuses.

That work for everybody? I take TacNets seriously if YOU set them up, pay attention to them, and take them seriously.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 1 2009, 03:49 AM

Hey guys!

I've been talking with Kerenshara tonight about possibly joining the game. If I do, I'm almost certainly going to be stepping in with a full magician. At the moment I'm leaning towards a Dwarven Occult Investigator who has something of a noir detective feel to him, but I'm certainly open to any suggestions or ideas the rest of you have for a better fit for the group. Regardless, I thought I'd say hello and let you all know that someone out there was working on a magician in case any of you were still considering retooling yours to fill the void. :)

Looking forward to this if I get accepted!

JoelHalpern

Nov 1 2009, 04:14 AM

Dr. Funkelstein, you are welcome as far as I am concerned.

Thanks for sorting out the tacnet. Looks like once the team forms, depending upon how large the operating set is, and how many "sensors" everyone has, we will be able to use grade 2 or 3 tacnet woftware. Of course, we will have to come up with the money to buy it.

(We don't actually have a conventional hacker, so up till now I don't think the issues of black market software and software degradation have come up.)

Yours,
Joel / Mach

PS: The fact that simrigs feed tacnets makes it even more sensible for my character to have one. Thanks to Kerenshara for explaining how and why even before that.

Embers

Nov 1 2009, 04:19 AM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Oct 31 2009, 11:43 PM)

Couple things to keep in mind: the bonuses eventually top out.

Even with a +4 from a Tacnet and +2 from a smartlink Jordan's Max bonus to Gun skills is 12 [8+4] 14 > 18. That would make her more accurate certainly but it wouldn't hit up against the cap.

On the other hand with perception tests I am pretty near the cap just on my own. 5 (int) + 3 (Perception) = 8 Max Bonus dice. I have Enhanced Perception 3 + 3 (visual or audio). I'd only be able to use 2 more dice, meaning only part of a tacnet's bonus.

JoelHalpern

Nov 1 2009, 04:59 AM

Depending upon lighting, range, aim, and degree of tacnet effectiveness, mach could almost get to 20 dice for throwing a knife into someone (base 15 dice). And he throws HARD.

Mach / Joel

Marwynn

Nov 1 2009, 05:03 AM

I have just 2 in the software/cracking skills but with a Logic of 7. So my char can hit the Skill x 2 cap fairly well for extended tests, it just may take a while to get there.

Welcome Doc Funk! Let me know if you choose the Chaos Magic tradition, maybe we can both take Ritual Spellcasting for it. Might come in handy.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 1 2009, 05:06 AM

I doubt I'll be going Chaos. Is Ritual Spellcasting limited to a single tradition in 4th Edition though? I know certain magical groups have limitations like that, but I didn't know it was true of the base skill. I'm extremely out of practice with the rules, though, so I can easily be mistaking.

JoelHalpern

Nov 1 2009, 05:09 AM

QUOTE (Marwynn @ Nov 1 2009, 12:03 AM)

I have just 2 in the software/cracking skills but with a Logic of 7. So my char can hit the Skill x 2 cap fairly well for extended tests, it just may take a while to get there.

Hmmm. I read the success limit of 2*skill as applying to normal tests, not extended tests. Many extended tests have success targets well over 12.

Yours,
Joel

JoelHalpern

Nov 1 2009, 05:14 AM

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 1 2009, 12:06 AM)

Is Ritual Spellcasting limited to a single tradition in 4th Edition though?

Yep. Base book, first line of the "Requirements": (page 175) "All members taking part in the ritual must be of the same tradition and must know the spell." I don;t know where it is in 4A.

Yours,
Joel

Marwynn

Nov 1 2009, 05:15 AM

QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Nov 1 2009, 01:09 AM)

Hmmm. I read the success limit of 2*skill as applying to normal tests, not extended tests. Many extended tests have success targets well over 12.

Yours,
Joel

Yeah, requiring several extended tests to reach the threshold. It's up to Kerenshara but I figured it applied to that as well.

Ahh that's alright then Doc. Yeah it's limited to the tradition.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 1 2009, 05:17 AM

Lamesauce. I'll reconsider Chaos to see if I can make it work with the concept, but I don't think it'll work out well. I do like the idea of finally having a use for Ritual Spellcasting though. Never had a character that did.

Marwynn

Nov 1 2009, 05:58 AM

Same here, I've played many mages but often without Ritual Spellcasting. Don't sacrifice the concept on that account though.

Generic_PC

Nov 1 2009, 09:02 AM

I haven't read through all 11 pages, but I'd be willing to play in this, assuming you still need people.

Based on the list on the last post of the first page, a ranged combat specialist sounds nice, probably a dwarf. An old bounty hunter, maybe.

Alternately, a post Street Doc, if you still need healing.

Will go back to reading through the thread...

pbangarth

Nov 1 2009, 12:44 PM

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 1 2009, 12:17 AM)

Lamesauce. I'll reconsider Chaos to see if I can make it work with the concept, but I don't think it'll work out well. I do like the idea of finally having a use for Ritual Spellcasting though. Never had a character that did.

QUOTE (Marwynn @ Nov 1 2009, 12:58 AM)

Same here, I've played many mages but often without Ritual Spellcasting. Don't sacrifice the concept on that account though.

Though you lose the teamwork aspect if you are of different traditions, you can still get the long-range effect even if you do it alone, with say a spirit for a spotter. Some might find that useful enough.

Karoline

Nov 1 2009, 01:27 PM

There is one notable exception to the one 'everyone has to be of the same tradition to ritually spellcast' and that is if they are all part of the same magic group, which can be made up of multiple traditions.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 1 2009, 03:51 PM

Interesing. I'll have to look into that more myself. You can be in more than one group, right, as long as they don't have Exclusive clauses?

Also, being a total Knowledge Skill junkie, I have a question regarding the following house rule:

QUOTE

You WILL be allowed to take FREE Knowledge and Language skills equal to [(LOGic + INTuition) x 6]. Remember, these are Skill Tests, so your Hits (not Net Hits) will be limited to [Skill x 2].

Are those actual skill points or just Karma to buy the skill points? Please God let it be the former!

Embers

Nov 1 2009, 03:54 PM

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 1 2009, 10:51 AM)

Interesing. I'll have to look into that more myself. You can be in more than one group, right, as long as they don't have Exclusive clauses?

Also, being a total Knowledge Skill junkie, I have a question regarding the following house rule:
Are those actual skill points or just Karma to buy the skill points? Please God let it be the former!

Its karma limited to only Knowledge and Language.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 1 2009, 03:56 PM

Drats, foiled again.

Embers

Nov 1 2009, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 1 2009, 10:56 AM)

Drats, foiled again.

Other people asked the same thing...and had the same reaction. Though it'd be a bit insane for it to be the other way around.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 1 2009, 04:19 PM

I suppose, but like I said I'm a crack addict when it comes to Knowledge Skills. I have a bad habit of using them for all kinds of flavor stuff that has almost no bearing on running.

milk ducks

Nov 2 2009, 12:22 AM

Okay, I know you want this stuff emailed or PM'd to you, but I wanted to post it here because I've been working on it on multiple PCs for the past week, lol, and I just want it posted somewhere so I don't have to keep saving it and emailing it to myself. The character questionairre is the first spoiler, and the character sheet is the second. The character sheet isn't finished yet; I still have like 70 Karma to spend and an additional 50 post-gen Karma to spend as well. Also, the contacts need fleshed out, and my specific knowledge skills are unfinished (because I may yet spend some of my karma on logic or something, which would increase the total).

[ Spoiler ]

-milk.

JoelHalpern

Nov 2 2009, 01:38 AM

milk ducks: I don't know if it fits the concept or not, but for the regular software I got, I bought it all as rating 6, optimize 3, which means it will run on any system that is rating 3 or above, and I get a rating 6 program. ( I got Analyze, Browse, Encrypt, and Command, plus a few things that are suited to the character.)
I included encrypt, because most of the board discussion says that having your node slow-encrypted leaves it still usable by you, but much harder for a hacker to crack.

Yours,
Joel

milk ducks

Nov 2 2009, 02:00 AM

Thanks for that Joel. I'm pretty new to Shadowrun in general, and I haven't made a hacker character yet, so any information like that is really appreciated. I'll sit down with the gear section a bit later and see what I can work out. I've certainly got enough spare Karma to swing some additional purchases.

-milk.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 2 2009, 05:13 AM

For the record, I did manage to snag Ritual Spellcasting 3 since I bought the Sorcery skill group. I'll try to hang on to 5 Karma in case any of you guys wanna get a small initiatory group together so we can use it (assuming Karoline is correct). If not, that's cool, too. I can certainly understand why a bunch of professional criminals wouldn't want to bind themselves together so soon. But the idea is certainly out there and I'll have the Ritual Spellcasting skill either way.

Karoline

Nov 2 2009, 10:54 AM

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 2 2009, 12:13 AM)

assuming Karoline is correct

I'm always correct

QUOTE ("Street magic page 68")

The magical bond formed between members of the same
magical group allows them to transcend some of the usual
barriers between magical traditions. Members can learn to
perform ritual magic together and tap the common pool of
power, regardless of their traditions. Articulating the workings
and styles of different traditions, however, doubles the normal
ritual time.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 2 2009, 02:31 PM

I was just trying to cover my ass. I didn't mean it as an insult. XD I've seriously forgotten at least 75% of the rules during my hiatus, so I'm a noob again.

Marwynn

Nov 2 2009, 04:40 PM

Well I'll leave the cracking to you milk ducks. Save me a bit of nuyen too hehe.

Oh and I did grab Ritual Spellcasting 3 as well.

Also, by Kerenshara's ruling I'll be needing two Shops to handle cars and drones, am I getting that right?

BlueMax

Nov 2 2009, 04:50 PM

QUOTE (Marwynn @ Nov 2 2009, 08:40 AM)

Well I'll leave the cracking to you milk ducks. Save me a bit of nuyen too hehe.

Oh and I did grab Ritual Spellcasting 3 as well.

Also, by Kerenshara's ruling I'll be needing two Shops to handle cars and drones, am I getting that right?

What am I chop liver?
Orb actually wouldn't mind being dead weight. But he and his team would also be happy to help.

BlueMax

Marwynn

Nov 2 2009, 04:56 PM

My bad. Looks like milk's character and mine are both novice hackers at best.

Also milk, didn't catch the Bulldog Step-Van you bought. My character can modify that for you too, so we can have two since mine is buying one as well. If Kerenshara approves it that is. Get you a bit of a discount and maybe some extra features.

DigitalOYABUN

Nov 2 2009, 05:12 PM

Yeah I'd like a breakdown on the B/R type and does each individual type need its own shop?
i.e.
Armorer: Blade shop, Ammo shop, Armor etc
Ground vehicles: Bikes, cars, trucks etc

Just an idea so I know what I have to buy.

Embers

Nov 2 2009, 05:20 PM

QUOTE (DigitalOYABUN @ Nov 2 2009, 12:12 PM)

Yeah I'd like a breakdown on the B/R type and does each individual type need its own shop?
i.e.
Armorer: Blade shop, Ammo shop, Armor etc
Ground vehicles: Bikes, cars, trucks etc

Just an idea so I know what I have to buy.

The GM already made a ruling on that.

QUOTE (Kerenshara)

Ravensoracle

This goes for everybody, but here's how I am ruling this, and why re: kits/shops/facilities.

You may purchase a single general-purpose kit at 150% of normal base cost. This will cover all Mechanic Group repairs.

For Shops and Facilities, you MUST purchase separate equipment, and here is why:
Yes, when you're dealing with internal combustion engines and so forth, you will have very high commonality of tools. But by 2070, you have hybrid-electric alongside turbines and pure electric and so forth. The tools needed to overhaul a turbine engine don't have that much in common with those to overhaul a V-8, and there are a LOT of very specialized tools needed. Yes, you're going to have some overlap, but not enoguh to be worth discounting (and certainly not from the selling corp's perspective!). Keep in mind also, that these kits also have to handle drones of the apropriate types, so you might have to deal with tracks, rotary wings, hydraulics, propellers, fans, skirts and legs.

Can everybody live with that

DigitalOYABUN

Nov 2 2009, 05:34 PM

Yes I saw that as well. I was asking on the breakdown of the different types from the GM, as written and pasted again for what I can assume is my convenience, it still isn't that clear and I'd like to have as complete a work area as I envisioned for my character.

Embers

Nov 2 2009, 06:06 PM

The ruling seems to be that each skill needed its own shop, but nothing changed the fact that a shop handles all aspect of the skill that it is purchased for. You would need a seperate Nautical Mechanic and Automotive Mechanic shops (different skills), but not seperate shops for each specialization of the given skill (Amorer: Blades vs Armorer: Bullets). Though a general toolkit was availible:

General Tool Kit - 750

Armorer Shop
Chemistry Shop
Demolition Shop?
Enchanting Shop
Hardware Shop

Aeronautic Mechanic Shop
Automotive Mechanic Shop
Industrial Mechanic Shop
Nautical Mechanic Shop

Karoline

Nov 2 2009, 06:18 PM

I think Embers basically has it. The only thing that GM has changed at all is that you can get a 'mechanic' kit for 150% normal kit cost that works for all mechanic group skills.

The reason she mentioned drones was pointing out that your aeronautics shop has to handle planes, choppers, VTOL, and various drones, which is why it can't -also- handle a car.

Marwynn

Nov 2 2009, 06:30 PM

Well, I'm buying a shop for Armorer, Auto mechanic, and Hardware then. I'll settle for difficult repairs on my LEBD-1.

Darn, there goes my Sleep Regulator!

Kerenshara

Nov 2 2009, 10:27 PM

Yes, Embers got it right on the shops. Armorer is pretty broad, since most weapons are at heart solid chunks of alloy/polymer. Remember: desktop forges improved the effective rating of a "kit". Another point: many modern weapons require at least an electronics kit to do major work on (see Arsenal: Weapon Modifications for ideas).

And for extended tests, each INDIVIDUAL test is capped, not the thing as a whole. That means combined with degrading dice pools, novices really DO have lots of trouble with complex tasks.

I'm trying to get caught up, but it's a Monday at work AND (I looked outside) it's a completely full moon.

Wish me luck.

JoelHalpern

Nov 3 2009, 03:02 AM

Good luck, Kerenshara.
Thanks for clarifying that you are using the degrading dice pool rule for extended tests. (It is 4a canon, so although I don't like it, I can;t really argue. There are tests where it really makes sense, and tests where it simply does not match reality. But I suppose it is cleaner than the old limited trials optional rule. And yes, some sort of limit is necessary.)

Yours,
Joel / Mach

Kerenshara

Nov 3 2009, 05:02 AM

Yes, there are circumstances in which the loss of dice doesn't really make sense, but those are the vanishing minority. But combined with the caps, it strongly reinforces the concept that truly skilled masters can accomplish amazing things whereas people working with the manuals in their laps really can't be expected to accomplish as much or achieve trully expansive goals at all.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 3 2009, 06:30 AM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Nov 2 2009, 11:02 PM)

Yes, there are circumstances in which the loss of dice doesn't really make sense, but those are the vanishing minority. But combined with the caps, it strongly reinforces the concept that truly skilled masters can accomplish amazing things whereas people working with the manuals in their laps really can't be expected to accomplish as much or achieve trully expansive goals at all.

Not trying to start an argument or anything, but there seems to be some fault in this logic. At least compared to your preference for sticking to the book's listing of what a "professional" is, skill wise. Mechanically, a Skill of 3 really isn't that great. Especially when combined with concepts like diminishing returns, or having the hits (not net hits) limited by the skill's rating. Yet a professional should, by description, be able to do practically any kind of customization or repairs available in the game. Which is what most extended tests revolve around. Say you have a mechanic who just wants to add a sidecar to his bike. That has a staggering Threshold of 24. The same goes for other things a professional mechanic shouldn't have much trouble with, such as hooking up an alarm system (Threshold 20) or souping up an engine (24). How likely is someone with a skill and attribute rating of 3 -- a typical professional -- going to be successful at performing those rather unremarkble tasks with these rules? I mean, that's a total of only 21 dice (6+5+4, etc) and they need 20-24 total successes. Assuming I remember how the rules work anyway.

JoelHalpern

Nov 3 2009, 01:24 PM

Kerenshara: Please take the following as a theoretical discussion, amplifying Dr. Funkenstein's comments. I like analyzing the details of rules and their impact. I will work with the way you want to play this. (Heck, Mach probably will have very few extended tests compared with other characters.)

If we assume tools, and we don't assume decreasing pools, then this typical person might have a pool of 9 dice. With the old pool caps attempts optional rule, that would give 81 dice, which averages 27 hits and is likely to manage 23 hits 5/6ths of the time. However, with the decreasing pool, we only have 45 dice total. He fails installing the alarm system 5/6ths of the time.

There are some positive effects of the diminishing pool. It means that for folks trying to do a task close to the limit of their ability you are going to get some glitches, and maybe some critical glitches. If that limit matched what we expected, that would be a good result.

I think the idea they were after with the change was nice, but that they did not work out the interaction between the change and the many already defined existing tests.

Yours,
Joel

Ol' Scratch

Nov 3 2009, 04:51 PM

Well, for anyone who may be interested, here's my character concept so far. I've been hemming and hawing over some of the details for the past couple of days and, while I only have a sketch done for my "Crunchy Bits™," I do have the overall concept done. Feel free to take a look at it if you're curious. Now that I have that over and done with, I'm going to sit down and really work the numbers over properly and try to get them posted soon, too, so I can get some freedback.

Magnus "Mack" MacManus
Dwarven Occult Investigator

JoelHalpern

Nov 3 2009, 05:05 PM

Fortunately, when typing, "Mach" and "Mack" are two reasonably easily distinguished.
Since folks are posting numbers, I'll get some sort of readable presentation of Mach's stats up soon.

Yours,
Joel

Karoline

Nov 3 2009, 06:18 PM

That's an awesome little page. Keren and I were talking about stealing it for the campaign

DigitalOYABUN

Nov 3 2009, 06:55 PM

I'd like access to it as well. I'm floored by the quality to be honest.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 3 2009, 07:06 PM

Thanks for the compliments.

It's pretty much just a bunch of tables, though. Not hard to do at all. I make each one my hand, so there's really not a template or anything.

QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Nov 3 2009, 11:05 AM)

Fortunately, when typing, "Mach" and "Mack" are two reasonably easily distinguished.

Yeah, I caught that a little earlier, too. Then I figured it could very likely be a real scenario in the shadows. One you don't run into very often in character groups since people tend to choose names that don't clash too bad, but still one that's likely to come up from time to time. My character really doesn't like using a nickname at all, so reverting to his given name of Magnus wouldn't be a problem for him if the situation did come up.

But if you're really bothered by it, I can try to come up with something else.

JoelHalpern

Nov 3 2009, 07:46 PM

Sorry I was unclear. I am not bothered by the name clash at all. As the written names are seperable, we will know which of us the GM is talking to. With a little work, we ought to be able to produce some amusing confusion.

So, not a problem at all,
Joel / Mach