The campaign has been running for just shy of 5 years now, which is around 250+ sessions. Given a karma award of about 3-6 points per session it works out about right. I’m sure there are a lot of people on Dumpshock who don’t have a problem with that kind of game, but there are those who do and that attitude is typified by the statement I quoted above. Personally this is what we enjoy and the challenges are suitable for characters of that level.

In terms of attribute breakdown, we do respect things like racial maximums (with the odd exception). So most of the stats I’m talking about are augmented. For instance the team mage has natural mental stats of 8, 8, 10 – each with a Force 24 increase spell quickened onto them, so they work out around the 30 mark. The ork physad in the party has natural Body 10, adept powers increase that to around 20 and then cyberware gives him around another 8 points for a total of 28. The skills are expensive but not ridiculously so, especially for specialisations. Going from Programming 23 to 24 (assuming you have intelligence of 24) only costs 11 karma (with a mnemonic enhancer). With a metaplanar quest each time you learn a spell you need never pay more than 1 karma per spell.

In terms of enemies you are talking about Dragons (although they still wouldn’t dream of challenging a Great to a fight), Winternight, Deus, Bugs, Novatech, Blood Mage Gestalt, Renraku, Ex Pacis, Ordo Maximus and similar high level threats. In fact virtually every threat and then some, dealing with a long term enemy is often referred to as “closing a chapter� for this reason. Threats like Winternight can’t be easily countered by such PCs. Their massive shared potency, high level spirits and awesomely high initiate grade mages/adepts combined with drones sporting heavy weapons can give anyone pause. To give a recent example, the PCs surprised a unit of Jaguar guards and then wiped the entire unit out within a couple of initiative passes. Later when another unit of Jaguars got the drop on them the situation was almost reversed by tactical fighting. At the high end characters tend to appear virtually indestructible, but once their defences crack they tend to fold quickly.

Of course dice rolling software is a must for this sort of game, and sometimes it does play slow. But that is why we will wind it up once it gets too slow and too extreme. I’m not saying it is the default best way to play, but it is the way we enjoy.

So you are playing SR3, else you would be using odd skills (Programming is Software now), and not respect racial modified limits (at all). Plus, you are playing a system that does at some point laugh about minor dice pool increases.

Again, everything points to him playing SR3.

I would judge a chars level from DP sizes, but the exact ranges vary by skill type. A dedicated character will have a good natural attribute (4+), good skill (3+), and good equipment and augmentations (if applicable). Barely fitting that description is street level for the given char type. Being on the top end (high, augmented attributes; extreme skill; best ware money can buy; in all required areas) is Prime Runner country.
While you can build one-trick-ponies easily at 400 BP, those usually will not fit into the campaign, and look lacking from an internal build-logic POV. They tend to remind me of SR2 skillsets.

If I were to aim for a small fish in a big pond low level ganger or mafioso or what have you game, then I would aim for specialized dicepools to hit about 10 or 12 at the upwards limit and for things they know ok to be 6-8 and everything else in the 3-6 range if they can do it at all.

Normal starting game for us is with runners who are relatively unknown, but have either had a mediocre record in Seattle, but been there for awhile or someone who was a pretty medium fish in a small pond someone else in the world who came to wherever we held the game for some reason. Specialized dice pools- if they have a specialization- usually cap out at 14-16 with the exception of damage resistance of course things they are skilled at are in the 8-12 range and they can usually throw 6+ dice at anything they aren't defaulting on.

I plan on running a high powered game for a few weeks this coming summer and it will be kind of crazy with the runners either being prodigies or very established as some of the best in the world in their niche, I expect specialized dice pools to be in the high twenties to mid thirties, things they are professional with but not their personal bailiwick to be about 18-22, and non defaulting to be in the low teens.

We are currently using Frank's char gen rules, as I have a small team and no one wants to play a hacker, they just purchase matrix support/information instead of having a teammate get it. The low level game would probably be 300-340 BP not sure which with 1-3 "karma"(effectively BP under Frank's advancement rules) a run with most runs being short and gritty. Middle game we are playing now is 400 BP and I haven't given out "karma" awards yet though we are 3 sessions in because they are still only on Day 2 of the campaign and haven't had the time to spend any and want me to just give it to them when they can use it. Probably will finish this Saturday or next their first run, and they will total out about 6(already earned)-14(maximum) "karma" from it depending on how well they succeed. High end game will probably be short enough to not really give out karma, but will be 400BP with somewhere in the vicinity of 250 Common Sense Points(credits to Fistandantilus3.0- CSP are effectively karma selectively for knowledge language skills) and 500 "karma" to spend to advance their characters.

If you care, Money for the low level game would probably be about 1000 per runner per month to start, and scale up relatively quickly to afford low then medium and after about 6 months playtime(24 sessions or so) either high lifestyle or other luxuries.

Medium they get about 5k a run, but that scales depending upon performance, they get a rep for doing well they can look for better paying work. They do poorly the next offer will be lower.

High... money won't really be too much of a factor. Probably start them off with about 4 million in gear and an expense account.

That's how I roll.(literally)

Chris

To answer the OP question, I'd say it's because of 3 main factors:

1. Shadowrun is still considered as a cyberpunk game. Cyberpunk is rarely about superheroes saving the world. So people drawn by Shadowrun because of the cyberpunk aspect will tend to look for a gritty setting and street-level characters instead of epic stories. Same reason why you don't want to play a weak human in Exalted, Feng-Shui or 7th Sea which are designed for epic/cinematographic games.

2. Realistic high-level running requires more than big dice pools. When you're in the same league as great dragons or megacorps CEO, both players and GM need to have really cunning plans, using each and every available resources to the max... And that's not very easy to do.
Failing to do that, an epic SR game would be extremely ridiculous.

3. Starting low helps to get comfortable with the character and setting, as well as allowing the character to progress far more easily.

----

I think 1 explains why most people will prefer Street level games and will frown upon people aiming for epic games while 2 explains why they will make fun of those who play epic-level games, or games with epic levels characters.

...there is also a danger inherent in starting a high powered campaign in that some players like to watch their characters develop and grow from the beginning. Starting off "big and scary" from the get go can take that element away and leave the players feeling their characters do not mean as much. This is particularly true when dealing with a newer group of players as I experienced in the recent run of my RiS campaign. The previous time I ran of the campaign was with a group whom I had gamed with for some time (one of whom since my college days). Considering they had a lot of experience playing characters who made it into the 200 - 300 karma range, starting off on such an intricate and difficult mission was not as daunting.

As most posters figured out, I am playing SR3. With a possible view to moving to SR4 in the near future, which is why I am to be located in this forum. The fact that we’ve been playing for 5 years should also have given the system away, although it feels like SR4 came out 5 years ago now! We have converted the characters to SR4 using the published guidelines, but so far have only used them (and the SR4 system) inside the metaplanes – which we will probably revisit shortly.

The main challenges in conversion revolved around things that had been done in SR3 that got scrapped in SR4. For example, the adept with the attuned weapon focus, which isn’t allowed in SR4. He switched attunement to his gun instead. The shaman magician adept who loved using spirits (especially for channelling) was in a bit of a spin as well, as he still wanted to channel and use spirits in combat. Eventually he settled on channelling. The shapeshifter was also something we had to houserule, but that didn’t take much work. Everything else worked out not too badly… we did find that the conversion left our mages much more powerful, as despite their vast skills and magic attributes in SR3 they were generally limited by the force they had learned the spells at and the time taken to upgrade them all – whilst in SR4 they could go straight up to ludicrous force spells!

I won’t go back over most of the points TheOneRonin goes into, as in light of my SR3 revelation it can generally be accepted my previous statements are correct for the most part.

Quickened spell on the mage seemed to be a particular bone of contention, so I shall explain how such dice pools were obtained. Ritual sorcery. A vast pool of dice can be easily put together with a relatively small ritual group of powerful individuals who have learned these augmentation spells for mutual benefit. Throwing 100+ dice and a hefty karma pool at problems like how to get 48 successes against TN 10 tends to result in success. This is something I haven’t completely went over in SR4 yet, but Great Ritual appears to allow for some impressive feats.

Given the chat about starting off low level. I should probably point out that these characters started under SR3 using the sum to 10 system. As we had just came out of a long campaign a year earlier we decided to start with the equivalent of 50 karma or so expenditure. They followed all normal starting character requirements and the highest skill was around 6.

kzt, that is not a universally agreed upon origin for our favorite group of Pashtun religious zealots. But this particular argument is badly off topic, and I fear that we shall never get each other to accept our favorite conspiracy theories, nor should we have to.

I believe we've accomplished all we can, and I am no longer participating.

-Frank

notice how being a democracy does not stop america from declaring war on basically the whole world?
so why should it stop one democracy from declaring war on other democracies?
granted, it is easier to wage war if you get to decide from the top down without even having to bother with an alibi or something like that . . but if the democracy actualy agrees for once and should it be just that going to war against their neighbour then it happens . .

didn't korea and vietnam have McDonalds too?
and i am not really sure if there allready was an McDonalds in Germany when the brown shit hit the fan . .

*toothy Troll-Grin*
i like your way of thinking Fortune *gg*
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.otakyasha.de/nsrcg.zip < = latest version including german .dat files NSRCG
http://de.geocities.com/nekekami_the_ghost/RC2SWF.swf < = RunCreator2, shockave flash based little tool for quick creation of runs . . in german only i am afraid . .

I wasn't kidding. IIRC, it is technically a republic, not a democracy.

As an aside, though I am not, and never have been an American, I really hate America-bashing when it is done purely for the sake of bashing America, as is the current popular practice.

...[/derail]

....not that I haven't been guilty of derails myself, but extended off topic heated political discussion usually spawns warnings from the mods followed by thread shutdown. I actually found the OT of this thread rather interesting.

I guess it depends on your definition of both 'heated' and 'extended'

...just that I've often seen these debates degenerate into flaming and that is what brings down the Wrath of the Mods.

To be fair, things like Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys really are an exception rather than a rule, and it's still possible to find well scrubbed characters being trotted out for child consumption every day. For every Tolkein there's been a Howard or Moorecock showing off a contrasting archetype, and Metropolis and Nosferatu are both far older films than any of Shirley Temple's lightweight fluff. A lighter touch is apparently still appreciated in this world, whether it's Hannah Montana or John Travolta in a fat suit. I think a big part of the perception is that it's a lot easier for anyone, including the cynics, to get their work out there. Just imagine if Twain or Ambrose Bierce had their own blogs.

Even Tolkien didn't fall into a simplistic good vs. evil category. Sure, you had the evil dark lord and all, but you also had allies that distrusted each other, heroes who were tempted and sometimes succumbed, and villains, such as Boromir and Gollum, who were complicated, and even sympathetic at times.

Well, it really does seem street level means different things to different people. When i posted before, i go into it thinking it was ''fighting over a scrap of soy in a dumpster''. Street, i think, after milling it over, is more of an atmosphere(or can be), than a power level). I look at some of the movies, i see very successful characters, but i still don't feel it goes too epic.

But i do meet people who think street is indeed fighting over things on a corner with makeshift clubs. This, i admit, i don't have alot of interest in...most of the time(but sometimes, yes).

I still stand by the idea that balance is the key. Too much of any kind of gaming(unless the whole group REALLY likes it) can lead to stagnation, in my experience.

I think what starts to bother me, is when ANYONE puffs up their gaming style as ''the best''. When the low enders start to pick on the high enders as useless munchkins who are playing wrong. When the high enders start picking on the low enders for never letting their players have any fun. It's all pointless. And no, im not accusing anyone. But i do see it happen(several places). Im actually convinced you can have people throwing dice into their teens, and have it stay ''street'', depending on how you do it.

The current(very sporadic, due to me living an 8 hour flight away from the game) campaign im playing in(started recently while i was in the States at my friend's house) is a great middleground job. My character(former company man Pirate-type, in his mid 30s, worked for corps since he was around 18 to 28) throws around 12-14 dice for his high end stuff, 8-10 in the middle, and 4-6 on the low end. However, he has a looot of skills which he throws good dice for, and our party is around the same. But it still feels rather 'gritty' and 'Shadowrunny' in other words. In a few more sessions(in the summer since that's the next time im flying), ill be popping karma on some things.

I guess in the end, sometimes the dice amounts don't matter, if you have a GM who can paint pictures of the world well.

I have no problem starting characters on a "street" level but keeping the game there seems rather limiting. Once my characters have reached a certain level of skill they move up the food chain so to speak. This is reflected in the game mechanics where the table rating is used to figure run payouts and their foes. I use it as a lose guideline but there it is. Also I have no problem with a "gritty" game setting. Actually I prefer it but that does not mean that "gritty" and "street" are the same thing. You can and I have run and played games that were epic (ie. Horrors, Great Dragons, CEO's involved and face to face) that were also very gritty in their atmosphere.

It hinges on what you think the definition of democracy is. Not an argument people can win.

For some people "representative democracy" is an oxymoron. For others it isn't. And you're not really going to get a lot done persuading people on it.

-Frank

I didn't think they ever defined what the starting BP for normal people is. Where did the 160BP number come from?

It comes from every attribute average=3. There could be made a point for the mean of the population =2, were everyone might have one or two 4´s.

Oh, okay. In any case, I've always found that PCs made with the standard rules, while perhaps a bit weaker than SR3 PCs, are still miles beyond security personnel, let along Joe blow on the street.

Yeah, but I place the blame mostly on the fault of DMs and Players who forget that in Fourth Edition, natural dicepools of 6-8+ are supposed to be considered the norm with Runners being slightly ahead of the curve.

Of course, I should disclaim myself by saying that if you are having fun with high dicepool games then more power to you, I however believe that the game's engine breaks once the dicepools start climbing and that it is a bug, not a feature that starting characters can be "world class" and better straight out of the box using the default char gen rules.

I disagree with the "it's a bug, not a feature" bit. Vehemently, in fact, but that's not something I particularly feel like getting into right now.

The big thing is that we agree that for the average person having a dice pool that's even just in the 3-6 range is pretty damn good for every day life. To start with, the majority of tasks won't require a test at all because there's virtually no risk or conflicts of interest involved. Even a big ol' troll doesn't necessarily need to pass an etiquette test to pick up a burrito from Kwik Trip since he's not trying to be anywhere he isn't supposed to be and the establishment exists to seperate him from his nuyen.

Or, let's take Joe Wageslave, a guy who's somewhat inept (2 logic), but hey, he was born into the company and has a set of hands to put to work so let's hook him up with a rating 1 Skillwire so he can come in and chip company owned Rating 1 Industrial Mechanic and Hardware Activesofts and be put to work in the repairs department. We'll give him a nice modern toolkit that's more than adequate for the piddly crap he'll be working on, a cheap pair of company-owned safety goggles equipped with an image link and a matching dirt cheap company owned Meta-Link that costs 300Â¥ total if you picked it up on the street with a crappy OS and probably costs the corp even less when they buy/produce them in bulk.

All that can easily add up to a dicepool of 6 or more just for a guy who is frankly pretty bad at his job, provided, of course, that he's put into an enviroment that's designed for him to succeed. After all, he can get a bonus die for well-lit and quiet working conditions, another die for having plenty of quality spare parts, and another one to two dice just for having access to plans or AR enhanced reference material. He's no star employee, but he's quite capable of fixing minor equipment malfunctions and refurbishing beat up old commlinks given the time and space to do so, which is all that is really required of many people. Shadowrunners should obviously have more dice than that, since they typically need to do the same jobs ordinary people can do, only better, faster and while people are shooting at them. So looking at it one way, a lot of people and NPCs in my games could be considered "lower powered" and unskilled, but then, I have lower expectations of what it really takes for many people to do their jobs, since let's face it, most of us aren't really pushed to the edge of our abilities on a regular basis.