Nice find on the vision mag lens system implant. Or the raw 'image magnification' eye implant sans cybereye... people forget you can get them without getting a cybereye. (it either costs 0.1 essence on it's own... OR 2 capacity out of a cybereyes system).


But even there, it's the size of a pea and extends back into the eye cavity... try to think about blinking with something the size of a pea between your eye and your eyelid for a contact lens.... a little too big.

Not necessarily. A shape-morphing lens could produce differing levels of magnification, possibly all the way down to 0x.

So, rather than the usual "It's Magic!", for once "It's Future-tech!"? I like it.
Ever since I saw that being mentioned on another forum, I've gotten a quite liberal view about which technical gadgets in SR are really feasible and why things that are nowadays impossible can still be implemented in the game world, even though canon doesn't mention every common household item in detail... Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest, had some conflict over that IRL sometime back
Whenever I cook up something that is not strictly RAW, I simply try to rather tweak existing stuff, use as many existing rules and as few rulings in general as possible, and every benefit has to have a drawback.
I call that creativity, and I think that it can, at least partially, be discussed on this forum.
Of course, this accounts only for items of the mentioned "middle ground", as custom spells or the "Special Machinery" vehicle modification.

Back on topic: There have been other attempts to custom spells. I, for one, especially like the take on Summoned Weapons.

That is a non cyber eye eye mod not a contact lense.

In other words:



?

Why does no one bother reading the posts I quote in my posts and ASSume I'm talking about one thing when I'm not?

Didn't think you would post something totally irrelevant, after all the post you quoted was about why contacts don't work for magic.

Wow. I was agreeing with that post.

That's why context is important.

No my point was that to get an optical zoom suitable for magic... you'd need something bigger than contacts. The optical structures are just too big to fit into something as thin as contacts.

Digital zoom... as an AR overlay just won't do for that purpose.


What he posted is practically the image mag eyeware (remember it can be installed without a cybereye).

Such as: real life tech, as seen in this picture.

I find it absurd that "I am disproving your point by proving your point" to be the more accepted interpretation of my post than "I am backing up your point with this example."

What he posted, is the Image Magnification eyeware, probably at R0 ... in 2013.

How much smaller might it be, in 2073?

Wow That's a spell I want now XD



Truly Terrifying my friend.






And there goes the "insert" market.



Huh nice to see there is some sort of limitation for magic I guess. Will keep those rules in mind when I start crafting magic.



True so very true.

Anyway, I think some context is needed here.
I've only ever played two games of Shadowrun, the first was in 3rd ed and the second (currently) is 4th ed. In both games however magic was implied and only physical adepts were allowed. However since the first time I played I wanted to play a magic user (as a full mage)but I found the magic formulae rather disappointing (in the terms of wow there are very few spells I want). So I tried to make a few which despite how extensive Street Magic is, I'm still lost.

So ok I now know how does one start with custom spells, I still need to know now to make custom spells while the character is now in the game (and I don't mean buying custom spelss I really do mean making them).

This also raises a few new questions, how do you calculate magic needed for the spell, and then how do you calculate the drain the spell might give you.

Please if possible in the simplest form because I'm also using this to try to convince my current GM that magic isn't that hard to include in the game XP

Thanks again guys.

I would suggest relating the spell you want as closely to an existing spell as possible. Then modify the formula to account for the changes you want.

In one example in this thread a poster created a Flight spell that is a variation of the Levitate spell. However, it seems that the Flight spell is way better in several ways, but those benefits are not balanced with drawbacks (like Drain) as well as some would like.

But, decide what you want the spell to do, try to find a spell doing something similar, then discuss how to modify and balance it with your GM.

Of course, post what you are trying to accomplish and get input from the forum and perhaps spark a few more lively discussions.

OK, Andros. Quick & Dirty Spell Design

Arcana (Logic) is the Active Skill governing designing Formula for Magic of all sorts.

Spell Design Step-By-Step (Street Magic, p. 158)
1. Choose the spell category

Spell Category Threshold Interval
Combat-12-3 months
Detection-8-1 month
Health-8-1 month
Illusion-12-3 months
Manipulation-16-3 months

2. Choose the type

Mana or Physical

3. Choose the range

Touch, LOS, Area, Restricted Target, or Very Restricted Target

4. Choose the duration

Instant, Sustained, or Permanent

5. Determine effects

How the spell is Resisted, and how to determine magnitude of effect

6. Calculate the Drain Value

All Spells start with Force/2 as the Drain Value
Then you begin adding and subtracting additional Drain Modifiers Table (Street Magic, p. 163).

7. Final Touches

Once you and your GM agree on these qualities, the character can begin making rolls in an Arcana + Logic (Threshold and Interval form Step 1) Extended Test
Character pays the Kharma to learn the newly designed spell and begins casting custom Mojo.

Casting maid simple.
(SR4a, p. 177)
Spellcasting + Magic = Max gross Hits = Force


Spellcasting By the Numbers (SR4a, p. 182)
Step 1: Choose a Spell.
Step 2: Choose the Force up to the caster’s Magic attribute (unless overcasting—at left).
Step 3: Choose a Target within the caster’s line of sight.
Step 4: Roll Spellcasting + Magic.

All Visibility Modifiers apply.

Step 5: Determine Effect (see spell description).

Count hits up to the Force chosen in Step 2

Step 6: Resist Drain by rolling Willpower + tradition’s Drain attribute.

Mechanic functions like Damage Soak, only against yourself.

Step 7: Determine Ongoing Effects (–2 sustaining modifier).

Example Spell 1
Detect Life (Active, Area)
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2)

Cast @ Force 4
DV = Drain Value = F/2 = 4/2 = 2 for this casting

Detection Range = Force x Magic in meters.

Example Spell 2
Stunbolt (Direct) a.k.a. the Mage's Predator Heavy Pistol
Type: M • Range: LOS • Damage: S • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) – 1

Cast @ Force 4
DV = Drain Value = (F/2)-1 = (4/2)-1 = 2-1 = 1 for this casting

Mage rolls Spellcasting + Magic vs Targets Willpower
Mage total hits can't be greater than selected Force 4 for this example.
If Targets Willpower generates more than 4 hits, nothing happens.
If less than 4 hits for the target, every net hit greater than 1 for the mage applied to increase the damage against the target also increases the drain by 1.
As a Direct Combat Spell the target gets NO Armor to Soak the damage.

That was my Flight spell. The draw back is that it only affects the mage. You can't cast that spell on anyone or anything else.

And you didn't follow the spell construction rules at all to do it... KCKitsune

Starting with levitate as the base... at +1 drain code...

In step 3.. Shaidar's post should read more like Area/LoS/Touch <- mandatory pick one. Restricted/very restricted <- optional pick 1 if used.

You change the range to touch (-2), and also add very restricted target (-2). The resulting spell is drain code -3. Just like yours... only at this point IT IS IDENTICAL TO LEVITATE.

You completely ignored that anyone else could copy the spell after seeing you use it. And that your wish to not use a spirit power to enhance the effect did not mean others wouldn't. The spell cannot be evaluated in a vacuum of your personal use only. So you raised the speed up to ludicrous levels of effect on the base spell. You also completely ignored that your spell being self only changed the drain code from +1 to -3 all on it's own... and proceeded to still modify the effect to ludicrous levels.

If you had engaged the extra mod of +2 drain for major effect in step 5 (a full order of magnitude better than levitate) still resulting in a paltry -1 final drain code. I wouldn't have given you grief. Just stated it breaks when combined with the movement power and cautioned against it or lowering the movement enhancement.

Put bluntly... self only doesn't change the order of the effect... self only gives you a large starting drain reduction which you were happy to take... then greedily go for more. By your logic... I could make a +1 drain levitate spell equal to levitate in all aspects except it moved them 10x faster! (LOS, no restriction, physical manipulation, 10x the effect for no increase in drain!). That's why your example, was an extremely poorly crafted example of spell design.

OK I can see that, but I did say and I quote:

I'll even change out the Minor effect to major effect. That should change the drain code to (F/2)-1. This way it's more in line with a limited use* spell.


* == you can't use it on objects or other people.

Ok, so start with a Levitate spell modified to Caster only. Figure the Drain code. Then modify from there to include the other variations. Imo this is going to be harsher than what you created.

As others have mentioned earlier in the thread, KCKitsune, double dipping the Very Restricted target and Touch for a self-only spell seems to be gaming the system a lot, since you're essentially getting paid twice for the same thing.

No Halinn... that's not what people were criticizing at all. If you're going to make a self-only spell you pretty much always default to touch/very restricted for -2 (touch) -2(self only... very restricted) == -4 drain offsetting other drain modifiers.

The spell rules are very explicit in this point and you are dead wrong... restricted and very restricted target are mutually exclusive as per their text, they are not listed as incompatible with anything else. They are always added in addition to targetting range. *EVERY* spell must have a range of Touch/LoS/Area. I can make an area spell with a restricted target list (metahumans) or a very restricted target list (trolls). In which case it's +2 drain for area... and -1 or -2 more for the target restrictions. This is how you construct spells like wreck/demolish guns.


The reason others called KC was because he created a 'major' effect and didn't include the +2 extra drain as the spell construction rules state and maybe increased it too much for it to be considered a mere 'major effect' on the table. Had he just said here's levitate... at +1 drain... now I'm increasing the effect for +2 drain to +3... but then restricting the range for -2, and target for -2 more... for a final spell of -1 drain code. It would have been a good example. Instead he insisted on arguing that because the spell was 'self only' he was fully justified in increasing it's effectiveness without modifying the drain any more. The spell rules don't work like that... effectiveness is a seperate drain modifier and has nothing to do with how restricted the spells target is.

Except, "very restricted target" could simply be a spell that only works on "red-headed elf women", or a specific True Spirit .... but does so at LOS.

As a GM, I might compromise a bit, and give a slightly better modifier for whichever is the "better" one, and call it "self only".

Except I did cave in... THREE POSTS before this post.

I still think that the original spell was OK, but I can see your point and I changed the drain code. Honestly compared to changing hobos into gold my spell was more than fair.

Not to pick on anyone in particular, but I started seeing some weights and subsequent values for the gold/refined gold/radical gold/orichalcum.

I do not know what a given volume of gold weighs, but if a hobo were turned to gold, I am thinking a hobo sized mass of gold is going to weigh much more than the regular meat body hobo, so a lot more than 170 lbs. (Sorry, but this has been nagging at me for the last couple of days.)

Well, 1cc of Water weighs 1g - and that's a fair approximation for our putative hobo, since the metahuman body is mostly water.

1cc of Gold weighs 19.3g

...

Assuming the spell maintained volume, tt would not be unreasonable to just multiply the hobo's weight by 20. So that 170LBs hobo just became 3,400Lbs of .999 pure gold.

The density of a normal (not obese) human is ~ 1055kg/m³.

Don't forget that the Golden Hobo could end up with a lot of airpockets to reduce the density, though a factor 20 is probably a bit on the large side for that.

Or, 1.055g/cm³ ... close enough, like I figured.

Are you telling me we got close to two tons of golden hobo?
Well that makes my point even the more poignant, just sell the hobo and buy a castle, complete with gargoyles that you airlift to the top of an skyscraper in NYC.

Two tons Avoirdopois. Not Try weight. And gold is priced on Troy weight. I think we've got 1.5 tons, Troy weight.

For that reason alone, I would not ever allow a permanent spell of that nature. The result would turn out to be fools' gold or some such, instead. I'd be honest with the player about it, too - including the reason I was saying no: "technically legal, but game-setting-destroying". The result would convincingly LOOK and FEEL like a golden statue, so the "style" of it would be preserved. But not the value. NOSIR.

That's the problem with turn-to-anything spells, if the result is more valuable than human flesh.. and why, as a blanket, I don't allow them at my table without very strict limitations. Turning a hobo to marble, aluminium, diamond, or even glass (or pyrite!) would result in something worth far more than selling a dirty diseased hobo into slavery would get you, and is probably less risky... especially if you take day job: Homeless Shelter Worker.

The easy solution, and the first thing I tell all my players, is: "Shadowrun is the easiest game I have ever seen to break, often unintentionally. If you're going to play, you have to promise to make a good-faith effort not to break the game, to keep your character reasonable, and to revise your character if needed."

Mages that turn people into something, clever hackers*, and the pornomancer are examples of this. At some point you have to just look at your players and go: "...C'mon."




*I couldn't find the thread to link to, but the idea of using a high grade agent and com to hack people out of a single nuyen a day... left at a mall or other busy place. The Office Space scheme.

Slavery? Pfaugh. Tamanus, my friend, for ALL your hobo-selling needs!


I remember that. I'm the one that suggested "gecko tape and count the commlink as disposable" as part of the scheme.

It's fun to posit as "a doable thing", but I wouldn't let it slide in an actual game, unless it was just a fluff explanation for an alternate version of "Trust Fund", or maybe "day job" ("I run scams like that for the Yaks; my salary is my cut of the take."), and so on.

Sorry again to beat a dead spell, but the Flight spell had me thinking. What is "wrong" with the spell is that it intends to multiply successes. Either by a factor of 10 in the original or a factor of 5 in the revised. Then limiting in some way that just happens to reduce Drain and is the most heavily used instance. I was thinking of other spells you could create in the same vein of "wrong".

Sharpshooter: Enhance Aim spell, but only for personal use and only when used to target Pistols. Each success on casting test worth 5 (or 10) hits. (Sorry, I am used to playing SR3 so not even sure what the mechanic is.)

Bulletproof: Increase Body spell, but every success counts as 5 (or 10) but only when resisting gunshot damage and only good for single target.

Regeneration: Heal Spell, but with self restriction, but every success heals 5 (or 10) boxes of damage.

I'd say about any spell is going to break when it is made 5 times as effective even if restricted to it's most heavily used scenarios. At first I was thinking about the tenfold increase for Detection Spells using the Extended modifier and thinking there is an instance of multiplying an effect by 10. But really it doesn't make it 10 times as effective, it just covers more area, it doesn't multiply the successes by 5 or 10 and give the resulting information based on those successes. It just gives the capability to add more targets.

Which leads to the next multiplier for effectiveness, changing a single target spell into an area effect spell. But again, it just increases the number of targets. It does not make them deader by having every success against them count as 5 or 10 hits when calculating damage.

So I guess the conclusion is - the player and the GM need to get together and decide how game breaking the spell could be and balance it against the FUN of playing the game. Which comes down to just because the player thinks it would be fun, will the GM find it fun as well as will the other players find it fun, especially if the same spell gets turned around on them.

First off, I did change the drain code on the spell to (F/2)-1

Second, I did reduce the speed to times 5.

Third, compared to turning hobos into gold my spell is NOT game breaking. Heck, Falconer, even had a way to fly a hell of a lot faster than what my spell would allow (Mach speed anyone?) and that is using the rules as written. Why keep beating up on a spell that while nice is not game breaking?

Now your proof that times five speed is a straw man argument. Levitate allows you to move 200 kg of material PER SUCCESS at a speed of magic times NET NUMBER successes! So a mage with Magic 5 & Spellcasting 5 has ten dice. The average number of hits for this test is 3. That means the mage can levitate 400 kg of material at 5 meters a round. Or he can levitate 200 kg of material at 10 meters a round.

My spell doesn't allow ANYTHING other flight for the caster. He can't give it to anyone else and he can't move anything else with it. Your "Super Duper Enhance Pistol Aim" spell only reduces the range category one level per hit. The same mage that I described above would be able to make any shot as if he was at short range (using the same number of hits as above). If you want a limited spell than only the mage can use (an has to take a dice pool penalty because he's sustaining a spell) and only works on pistols and doesn't do anything better than a normal enhance aim spell, but has less drain then go ahead.

Your "Bullet Proof" spell would only work on the first mook shooting at you. Sure, go ahead, the second, third, fourth, etc etc ad nauseam would blow though because you didn't have your "Bullet Proof" spell up.

Stop beating up on my spell.

Not that I have anything against the flight spell proposed (movement is not as superawesome as some of the other hit-dependent spells), tisoz's post got me thinking about some spells that would be really broken with the touch/self-only/5x effect at -2 drain relative to the regular one.

How about (Astral) Armor. Your 12 spellcasting dice now suddenly adds 20 armor on average
Then there's of course Combat Sense and Deflection. Now you're pretty much immune to gunshots, with your total of 40 extra dice on reaction tests against ranged attacks, and 20 against melee ones
Of course, there's also a whole lot of combat/combat-ish spells that would enjoy just x5 at +2, for example Stunball and Orgy

Well, thats not that surprising... Gold is very heavy. If you see how gold is stored it will occure to you. You have to keep in mind, that those shelfs are mostly at maximum capacity to save storing space... And that means a few Gold bars on them, you can mostly count with one look...

@Halinn
It is a different thing, if you just multiplay any numerical number with X or if you multiply dicepool modifiers with X. A die is a die after all... But in general, there might be quite a differance...

The big difference between my Personal Flight Spell and Levitate is that Levitate allows movement of a LOT more weight than what a normal spell caster weighs. Also Levitate allows you to move ANYTHING that you can affect with the spell. If you get six hits on your spell casting roll you can move 1000 kg at 5 meters per round. That's a whole lot of weight.

Crap! I had a post all written out and my internet connection bounced me. Insult to injury, I was thinking it might occur and had almost copied the old post to save it, but barely failed, but that was a full failure even if it was just by a little. ;)
I'm almost in a hurry now, but will try to remember what I wanted to post.

Please do not ignore my comment that if you guys think it is fine and are having fun to go with it.

It most definitely is. But the point is to show the "brokenness" of introducing a mechanic that achieves 5 or 10 times rolled success. If you want 5 or 10 times successes, there is already a mechanic to achieve that - roll enough dice to get the expected outcome, or have a big enough dice pool to use auto successes. Both of these are achieved by casting at a higher Force. The downside is the Drain will make it untenable. You could achieve the effect you were going for using the Levitate spell, restrict it as you did, but then do not try to estimate a Drain modifier to "balance" successes when it can be accomplished with an existing mechanic.


Sorry, either you misunderstand what I meant or I just said it poorly, but I meant the subject of the spell was restricted to a single target, like self only. But your interpretation could be useful if needed to survive an end boss battle with a known entity that might otherwise not be survived, OR if the same person shot a lot at the beneficiary of the spell - think Hunted.


Sorry again, but it is not personal. It is that it was a poor example for a person seeking advice on spell design. My intent is to try to show ways I think spells should be designed in relating them as much as possible to existing spells and mechanics.

I have a lot of time to think and I couldn't get my mind of why I thought Flight was 'wrong' (as well as the weight of a golden hobo.) I knew there was the Extended Range mechanic and tried fitting this into it. But it came down to Really just multiplying successes and trying to omit the existing mechanic for getting those successes.