Having been a runner for many, many years in the Marine Corps, I can tell you it is all about Strength and Endurance (Body Conditioning). However, just becasue your legs are strong does not mean that you are considered overmuscled. At my prime, I could leg press 1400 lbs (Single Rep, Max Weight), and worked out with just under 1000 lbs. During that same time, I could not bench press my body weight (Single Rep, Max Weight, 130lbs - My weight was 174 lbs). In the Gulf, my combat load weighed almost as much as I did.

Yes, Agility can figure into it too a very small degree, but Strength and Body is where it is for running and movement.

An ongoing issue, that. Some of the early returns on art were from people who didn't quite 'get' trolls. Smooth like a baby's bottom each and every time. The chorus of "PUT SOME LUMPS ON THAT TROLL!" was *deafening*. And well deserved.

Not sure if it's addressed in 5th Ed., but Melee attacks were always explained as a series of feints, blows, and maneuvers, not as a single punch / kick/ slash. In pre 4th Ed. the defender had a chance to hit the attacker in the scrum as well.

The Predator is not a super accurate gun. It's common and dirt cheap and by teh fluff reliable. But it's your basic, run of the mill heavy pistol. Not sure why everyone is surprised by the base Acc of 5. And keep in mind it's a 7 most of the time, so long as you have a smartlink.



No limit. But you can only wear ONE piece of armor, period. Encumberance rules largely existed to prevent stacking multiple layers of large armor values. Since we switched back to the "No Stacking" rule, it wasn't needed.

Bull

In SR4 you couldn't really stack armor much more then you can in SR5 "If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies."
So while technically it was possible to stack armors, in practice it was only of use with a very specifig combinations of one armor with high ballistic and minimal impact and other armor with opposite.

Body is great for long distance running (or lengthy sprints), I don't dispute that at all. But a short sprint? Body doesn't have much to do with that.

As far as the sprinting is concerned; if you look at world class sprinters, they have strong and toned legs. Not overly muscular ones. I'm sure the "running" skill is based on strength anyway, and that will symbolize the years of training as well leg strengthening and toning .

And don't forget that many large overweight people are quite strong, but cannot run worth beans. This is where the Agility far out weighs the strength.

You're still confusing big and bulky with high strength.

Everyone keeps telling you this is incorrect, and yet you keep coming back to the same argument.

And they keep trying to tell me that I am wrong with the same incorrect information.

What's your point?

To have a high strength, say above 4, you will be big and bulky. No confusion there at all.

So no more FFBA, Secure Tech PPS and such? What about cyberlimbs?

Wrong.

Yeah I know its weird that people expect the AAA most known for weapon manufacturing would make I don't know a best gun in class once in a while instead of Aztechnology always seeming to make better weapons.

Seriosly ignorig the whole excalibur thing, when was the last time an Ares weapon was desribed as being one of the best? Hell when was the last time anything Ares did was seen as one of the best? I am just saying maybe next time you guys make a gear book based on guns you might want to make the AAA who is best known for guns make a decent gun instead of being outclassed in every department.

I doubt very much they're gone for good (FFBA and SecureTech), but I know there are ongoing discussions on how to implement them.

On another topic entirely, since I'm here anyway: Can we please table the running discussion on, well, running? It's going nowhere, and all I see it doing is getting more contentious while adding nothing at all to the discussion of the actual SR5 content. I have no weight here as anything but another poster in the thread, but come on, guys....

Isn't alpha generally considered the best gun in existence?

If I was wrong, I would know it.

Too long, IMO. Far too long.

That said, it's not my niche, though many of my characters in my fiction are Ares whores....

In world or out?

Its built in 2 pt recoil comp is beast on the out of world game mechanic side. In world a ton of other guns are seen as better because in world people don't mod to cheese levels.

PPS walls exlicitly on the catergory of +armor items mentioned seperatly that are limited by the characters strength attribute .
And cyberlimb armor isn't worn armor at all.

Yes, please tell us more about your experience as a runner, and how you incorrectly pigeonhole attributes.

Stop. That. Now.

I'm really curious to see how this pans out. Right now the game looks about as deadly as base 4e with the 2 die dodge pool and beefed armor, smaller attack pools, limits all balancing the higher base DV of guns etc. But if the +armor is easy to acquire and use it might actually start off less deadly. Basically PPS is what I'd put on the easy side of things, balistic shileds and othe robvious gear on the hard side since you stand out carrying it.

I do miss the opposed Melee rules from previous editions.
They would go a long ways to making Melee very viable again.

Well if you can only make one attack action a turn being a complex action is also a much smaller hit.

Edit to add:

The more I think about it the better melee is in this edition.

In 4e people defneded with reaction+skill vs melee and just reaction against other attacks.
In 5e all attacks defend against reaction+intuition putting them on the same footing.

In 4e 1/2 strength+mods for damage
In 5e Fulll strength +mods for damage.

In 4e Complex action to attack vs Simple action for most ranged atttacks and you could get 2 ranged attacks.
In 5e its a complex action still vs a simple action but all that extra simple action gets you is something like observe in detail and not a seocnd attack.

5e melee looks pretty awesome actually. Its big limit is what it should be, range.

I was hoping for either Melee being a Complex Action with opposed rolls or Simple Actions with no opposed rolls. I guess I got half of one of those.

Not incorrectly at all.

The very use of Strength as a generic stat pigeonholes it, as it is used to represent raw brute strength. It represents core strength. leg strength, arm strength, back strength, etc. Because it covers so many aspects, it cannot be assumed that it only represents one form of strength, such as leg strength. To cover individual forms of strength, such as leg or core, you would almost need a Positive Quality to symbolize it.

As far as the running is concerned, I think they have done it well; using Agility to symbolize the slower speeds of walking/jogging and strength to engage the sprint. A higher agility will cover the concepts that a smaller more agile person will have less difficutlies than a big bulky person when walking and jogging, and the higher strength will cover the idea of strength boosting the sprint.

I won't regail you with my running experiences, as there isn't enough text space.

EDIT: And I would be wise to correct myself, I should have said higher than 5 or 6 would be big and bulky.

I miss em' too. I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to incorporate it into SR5 (or SR4(A)) for that matter.

Not difficult, no.

Huh, hadn't looked at it like that. Instead of changing how melee attacks worked, they changed how ranged attacks work. Can't wait to (hopefully) get the Origins Edition so that I can whip up a character and try some melee.

The only thing I didn't like about them was that once someone was too good, the chance of them being hurt was very minimal, and they basically got a free attack every time someone would attack them. I agree that it should be dangerous to engage in melee with someone holding a knife, but those old rules turned the good melee fighters into cuisinart Dhoom Achale mook blenders real fast. Maybe some combat options for melee would be nice to allow for counter attacks and feints without having to tack them on with martial arts rules later.
Hard to say from a hastily edited preview, but looks like they are addressing some of the things I was hoping might change in a new edition. We'll see!

Yah as I was posting on the SR tabletop forums about the 4th preview I am looking forward to making my Alex Louis Armstrong style mage in this edition. Excpetional attribute strength for a melee mage.
Because the awesome can not be contained.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90IQtuMXv-w

Opposed melee essentially rewarded a slow character (low initiative) fighting a fast character (high initiative) with multiple chances to strike, that they didn't earn. One IP is already potentially 3/5 of a second, and defensive parrying is already a rule, so I don't really see a strong benefit to using the opposed melee.

Was not a reward unless the slower fighter was actually better. The better fighter was rewarded, as He/She should be, in my opinion. *shrug*

It means the more skilled fighter gets to do his damage as often as there is contact.

There were positives and negatives to it, it rewarded the skilled fighter but it also kind of set up a don't even try if you are not an expert mentality, it also could reach fairly ridiculous levels of people striking out dozens of times for fatal blows in a couple seconds.

It still didn't make any sense. It meant that the unaugmented 1IP swordsman could stab the move-by-wire street samurai 5 times, but could only stab the clumsy ganger once. So your swordsman automatically becomes five times as efficient at stabbing another person just because the other person happens to be moving very quickly.

Seriously, you can't possibly be arguing that point. It's ridiculous on its face.

I like how you get +2 DP when you charge into melee now. Could encourage more people to get close to your target. Will be interesting to see how shooting in melee works in SR5, though.

I gotta agree here. Without looking up examples, I'm pretty sure the Predator has always been held up as the top of the line heavy pistol, period.

I always looked at as giving a slow (mundane), expert hand to hand fighter a chance against a wired combatant. Or a mage with exceptional melee weapon skills swinging his weapon focus around a chance to beat someone in a scrape.

Yes, it means you could take down someone much faster than you faster than you could take down someone only fast as you, and that is a valid point. But it beats being totally helpless IMO.

Some of the ridiculousness came (and still comes) from the sequential portrayal of parallel events due to the combat turn sequence. The only thing that really was missing when looking at your comparision: A mechanic that imposes a negative modifier for the slow but highly skilled guy when facing the fast but not so skilled guy.

A completely unaugmented guy should be at a pretty strong disadvantage compared to someone who's wired, or magically augmented, to act faster. Just like every other aspect of the game.

Sure, but too complicated. It would be a completely new mechanic just for melee, and melee already has one completely new mechanic just for melee (reach). Melee in SR has nominally been too much of a pain in the ass, so making it more so would just be a mistake. The idea of Smack, Block, Move On definitely makes it a more attractive component in the middle of a fight.

Nope, what I am arguing is that when defending with a knife (for example), the attacker takes the risk that he will get hurt each and every time he chooses to attack the knife weilder.

how?
you need to get close to your target to deal damage anyway, so why would you ever not charge if it's 2 free dice?

That's because you're thinking of each action phase of each IP as a completely new engagement. It's not. You can't move into melee and attack and then simply break away before you get stabbed at. You move into melee, make your attack, the other guy dodges or blocks or however, and then he gets a chance to stab you back with your chance to dodge/block/etc. If you're fast, you make some extra swipes (with dodges and blocks and so on), and if he's fast, he does the same. If he's not fast, he needs to focus on defending against your wired-reflexes-fueled furied onslaught of dikote steel. Not smugly stab you in the gut 5 times faster than he could if you were a kitten.

Don't ask me

It says so in Preview #4, p. 162:
"Characters who are running take a –2 dice pool modifier to all actions performed while running (except for Sprinting). Characters charging into melee combat gain a +4 dice pool modifier (making a net bonus of +2 when combined with the general penalty) when running into melee combat."

I suppose the running penalty would still apply for all your remaining tests for the turn (you're not running for one IP but stationary for the next IP?), most notably your dodge tests against the other melee combatant. Does the charge bonus apply to all your attacks in the turn or just the IP (would you get a +2 for one attack but -2 for all remaining ones)?

The difference in No. of initiative passes as negative pool modifiers for the person with lower IP numbers, doesn't seem to be "too complicated" to me. Finding appropriare TN modifiers for SR3 would have been far more complicated.



A negative pool modifier wouldn't be completely new mechanic either. And instead of providing just the calculation formula, the modifier table simply has to list all possible variations: -0 to -5



I would see an opposed test of that kind as a form of optional advanced melee rules ...

One of the things about the opposed melee with the threat of damaging either the attacker or the defender, which comes from 2nd and 3rd edition, was the combat pool. In those days, when the melee worked that way, a character could and would add combat pool dice to his attack/defense roll. The wired character getting more actions would have his combat pool refresh more often than the non-wired character, and so could inevitably have more dice in the combat.

Another reason I miss the combat pool.

You might not get the chance if you can't exceed your walking speed to get there, unless you can declare you are charging.

At least for SR3: Most definitely "No" ... Combat Pool refreshed every Combat Turn. So in opposing situations both characters had to stretch their Combat Pool over the same number of actions.

As for SR2? Would have to look that one up, but I think Combat Pool refreshed per Combat Turn as well.