Full Version: [LooseAlliances] Loose Alliances
It takes two for that sort of thing to go down, though.
The "twisted knickers" and "buckos" and whatnot don't really help sometimes.
But it takes two to make a thing go right. It also, from what I understand, takes two to make it 'out of sight.'
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| The "twisted knickers" and "buckos" and whatnot don't really help sometimes. |
yeah but AH is making an attempt at levity, where James is just over reacting IMO. He was just trying to help out.
Yeah, sure. "Help". That's it.
I was trying to help. I apologize if I was at all condescending or insulting.
Damn you and your helping, damn you to hell...
Disclaimer: All damning is meant in good fun, please oh Lords of Administration and people ever cooler than me don't kill me...
Disclaimer: All damning is meant in good fun, please oh Lords of Administration and people ever cooler than me don't kill me...
I’m going to take one last stab at this in the same friendly spirit I've answered all your posts. I hopes that you take it in the spirit that it is offered.
| QUOTE | ||
Of course. Clearly it was my fault in how I read it, and not how it was written. A thousand pardons. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the customer is not always wrong? |
Sorry, I just assumed this one was pretty clear in the way it was written. Right at the start Padre Pedro says he'd been in the Vatican for several years and never even heard of the Vigilia's intrigues (even though he's heard of other secretive forces). He is then trained and shipped out to a secret location and makes no further reference to internal Church politics (and in fact underlines the fact that the Vigília sees members of opposing doctrinal camps working together – ie. New Jesuits and Sylvestrines) or the Vatican's direct involvement.
| QUOTE |
| Excuse me then. Intrigue in the ranks of the Roman Catholic Church, and specificially the Vatican's agents. You're still not making a convincing argument that my runners in Seattle know, care, or are even tangentially involved in this shadow war. Great concept for stuff going on "out there" I guess. But it's hardly the kind of things that keep them up at night, especially considering how I just don't see it. I don't see how it's relevant to most runners. |
You're right we are talking at cross purposes. Must be. The Vigilia wasn't presented as involved in any "intrigue in the ranks of the Roman Catholic Church". It was supposed to be seen as a force for good operating behind the scenes dealing with threats outside the Church, in the shadows as it were...
If you'd been talking about the whole Conservative vs. Enlightened squabble explained in SoE (which the Vigilia stands apart from) then I'd agree with you 100%.
You might wonder why bother with introducing that issue for instance and the answer is simple - not only was this relevant to the setting being introduced (Italy and Europe) but also because the RCC's policies colors any practicing catholic's attitudes towards magic, metahumanity, corporate feudalism and politics - and that at the very least presents some interesting background material and in the hands of some might be woven into some interesting setting and plot developments (again I would point to a number of threads on DSF over the years as representative of the fact that other players are interested in this material). It also provides a more balanced approach and human face to the RCC than previous canon material.
As Ancient said there's no point in even attempting to use all the groups presented in this book (the same applies to any material introduced in any book), that's never the idea, you're meant to pick and chose what interests you (and your players) and leave the remainder by the wayside. Since you're obviously an SR3 player, I trust you've read SoNA, YotC or Threats 2? If you have, have you used more than a third of the material presented in any of them? Does that make it any less relevant or useful?
| QUOTE | ||
Great. A bunch of First and Second Edition adventures. It's like the references to the Black Lodge. For a gamer coming into Shadowrun in Third Edition, a lot of it has no context or relevance. It's not like everyone has Threats. I had no idea who they were from that book, and that's probably the biggest reason why I glossed over any references to them in this or any other book. |
I would note that I did mention bug hives, shedim infestations and toxics all of which are very much current threats and have appeared multiple times in SR3 products. As Ancient said those were examples from my long running campaign. Apologies but I didn't realize those adventures would be lost references on you. I cited them because for a number of reasons they're not the type of adventure you'd think of seeing a secret religious brotherhood in (as I'm sure those who've played them will attest).
On the subject of the Black Lodge - as has been stated several times already - it is not named in the text. That was intentional. Not everybody knows the Lodge and GMs should be free to interpret the renegade brothers in any light they want. As Crimson said it could be Cthulu-worshippers (if the GM so prefers) or any one of a number of potential secret magical groups (that the GM can come up with at his discretion) or a Gm could pick an established canon group that fits his plans such as the IOND, the Bavarian Illuminati or the Faustus society.
If some people choose to interpret as a link to an old SR reference such as the Lodge then there's nothing wrong with that. As written it is an equally valid interpretation. What is being said in this thread is if you chose that interpretation and fit it into what is known of such a group from SoE and Threats then you can get a little extra kick and relevance from that material. Mileage varies of course but many of us like that sort of thing - but strictly speaking there is nothing to validate that interpretation over any other.
| QUOTE |
| Fact is, I'm still not entirely sure who or what Winternight is and why a third of System Failure is focused on them crashing the Matrix, or whatever it is they're doing. |
Winternight's origins are profiled in System Failure, as are its goals and background. As some people have suggested elsewhere on these forums, their actions have been seeded through out recent (SR3) sourcebooks (although they've been purposefully kept obscure). I will be lobbying Rob to post the relevant Threats (possibly updated to SR3 stats) chapter up on the website for free as a teaser.
| QUOTE |
| All I'm saying is that I don't get it. Yes, I can run for them. I get that much. I can run for just about anyone. But this whole plotline narrative thing that is in here, and a lot of this book, is just... It seems to miss the boat if the intention is to open the world up for runners. Like I said about Games of State in State of the Art; It's great for background or alternative campaigns, but it's not helping my runners deal with the field hands on the ground. |
That's a perfectly legitimate complaint. Different people, different strokes. As long as you understand that for some other person(s) this was exactly what he(they) was(were) looking for. There's nothing wrong with not liking this section of the book. In fact it’s perfectly natural.
As a writer in search of constructive criticism I was just looking for details on particular dislikes and insights into why since this helps me in refining my future writing. No more, no less.
| QUOTE |
| I've heard this tune before. I would hope it needn't be said, but I will say it anyway. You can only blame the last guy so many times. I liked Shadowrun when it was under FASA, and minor things like that aside I am getting this sense of hostility from people like yourself or the person writing the Fourth Edition FAQ against FASA, and I don't get it. I'll probably never get it. But personally it's getting annoying. |
As I've explained before at length that you're misunderstanding or reading too much into what I'm saying and why I'm saying it - please refer to our previous exchange on this matter. Nothing has changed from my perspective since I wrote that.
In this particular instance, I was simply stating that you were using a design decision - based on the realities of the game world under one company and one developer - to point out an apparent inconsistency in the development direction of the game world and its realities under a different company and different developer more than half a decade down the line. Period.
There was nothing wrong with the decision at the time it was taken. It reflected realities of the world as FASA was presenting them at that time (to a point, after all almost two thirds of all FASA published adventures take place outside Seattle), the real life realities that were being extrapolated from.
I will only bother repeating this once: I have the utmost respect and I am humbled by the work done by the FASA crew through all editions of this game.
OT: One thing that does stand out in your posts is that you’re quite obviously a fan of SR3 material under FASA, but somehow seem to see it as more street level and relevant to low-level games than the material in “recent books” (under FanPro) – at the very least you suggest that more of the contents of the former books were of relevance or usefulness. It’s probably just me, but when I compare the last 3 years under FASA and particularly books like Year of the Comet, Target: Awakened Lands, Threats 2, Target: Wastelands, Renraku Arcology: Shutdown, Brainscan, SOTA:63 and Survival of the Fittest and place them against Dragons of the Sixth World, Sprawl Survival Guide, SOTA: 64 and now Loose Alliances, it’s a no-brainer (again IMHO) that the subjects touched upon and the actual approach to the material under FanPro is getting more "street-level" than the vast majority of the preceeding books. (I have purposefully left out the Shadows of since there style so far has remained consistent under both companies). From my perspective the inconsistency gets worse when I look at books with similar formats and styles. For instance I find myself comparing Threats 2 and Loose Alliances. I'll certainly be using a lot more material from the latter in a street-level campaign in Seattle than I would from the former. In fact though I love to mix things up I've only ever used a couple of groups from Threats but I've already used a handful of groups from Loose Alliances - both as incidental and background pieces and as plot elements.
| QUOTE | ||||
Well, given the context I didn't think I needed to spell it out to you. Here goes: Everything about the Vigilia. |
Sorry I was so dense. You threw me off with that paragraph coming off that travel and broadening horizons reference and then seguing into that megacorp stuff.
| QUOTE | ||
What's the point of putting a face on any monolithic presence, whether it is Aztechnology or the Roman Catholic Church then? |
Because it doesn't give them any faces. It presents faceless elements with agendas which impact the shadows. It has nothing to do with the Church's overall policy, doctrine, everyday practices or personalities. The Vigilia is a nebulous entity within the monolithic Church that has a shadow agenda. Just like Aztechnology's Jaguar Knights or Ares' Unseen, they're simply instruments of something infinitely bigger and unfathomable. Sometimes you get glimpses at what they do but you never get the full picture or an explanation of why they're ultimately doing these things (that's left to the GM).
| QUOTE | ||
Really? Because with that context in mind it changes a lot of things about that movie, and a lot about how it relates to Shadowrun. I never dismissed the idea of the crew. I am dismissing the idea that a crew which was written to be one of the best in the country is indicative of what a runner team would be like with that kind of cache and relative ability. Their Shadowrun equivalent would be worthy of an entry in DIY Crime. THAT is my point. It's not comparing the same thing. They were working for themselves. In Shadowrun they'd have all of the shit-hot gear and seamless integration of rigging, decking, magic, and muscle. They're a group to aspire to, which for me makes them considerably less "street". |
Again different strokes. Nothing wrong with that. In defense of what I said I would like to add that my players tend to make full use of the chargen rules (and then some) and produce competent, mildly experienced professionals (which is what the BBB says starting characters they are) who would put the Heat crew to shame in terms of sheer hardware, sources/contacts, legwork and specialized talent.
| QUOTE | ||
Well, that's not how I think of "street". What you're describing is what I'd consider "professional" or maybe just "sufficiently thorough". They aren't street in my opinion. |
As I've mentioned above, the characters I'm used to use the same basic chargen rules as everyone and are played by experienced players (10+ years of Shadowrun). They're more or less on par with the characters I've seen on most of the games on these forums in fact (but below many of the min-maxed ones I've seen too). No more, no less. Your game might be different.
| QUOTE | ||
A couple thousand a runner. Maybe. It's not like my runners are saving megacorps or killing Deus (or not). |
They're not only not saving megacorps or not killing Deus, but with profits like those they're not paying for the ammo they spend on runs, contact fees, medical care, damage to cyberware or vehicles either (unless you're referring to net profit after all that is taken care of - again insufficient data).
| QUOTE |
| But let me get this straight. There is a lot more shadow work to go around in the Shadowrun world than there might ever been in real life, enough that there is a community of runners, fixers, Johnsons, and so on around the world. But yet to you there is so little work to justify a runner team being able to operate in one city or region, especially a city like Seattle? |
That’s not what I said.
| QUOTE |
| Clearly, and I do emphasize clearly, our perceptions are quite different. And if this is the route Fanpro is taking, they can go right ahead but I'm going to stop at this next bus stop and turn around. |
I will reiterate what I did say
| QUOTE (Synner) | ||
Have you actually thought through the economics of this? Because its one of the inconsistencies in SR that keeps cropping up in my mind and one the recent development trend is attempting to fix. Mileage varies so mind if I inquire what the standard payouts for a datasnatch or corporate hit are like in your game? |
If you don’t consider the implications of a limited number of corps constantly exchanging shadowruns (with their economic implications, collateral damage, security impact, loss of revenues, etc) supporting a reasonable number of professional shadowrunners and attending underworld infrastructure that simply has to do with the way to perceive the universe.
In my vision of the game (and I stress that its simply my vision), there are about a dozen solid/regular crews operating in a sprawl the size of Seattle but basic economics (IMHO) means the cadence of regular corporate work for any such crew works out at about one job every couple of months (one a month tops). With what I normally pay out (in the 4-5k nuyen net profit per runner) my players are forced to look elsewhere for work just to keep up with lifestyle upkeep, medical and repair expenses and to have any chance of getting ahead they need to expand their horizons and either look for low-end underworld work (as enforcers, collectors, etc) or look abroad (regional rather than global) for more work of the kind that really builds their rep.
| QUOTE | ||||
It's still an awful movie, and movies like The Usual Suspects do it better. I just think it's crap on film with virtually no redeeming value, especially as it relates to this game. |
Honestly I wasn’t debating the merits of the movie or your opinion on it. Personally I’m not particularly fond of it either, but that’s neither here nor there. I was simply saying that based on numerous threads on here and elsewhere many other gamers opinions differ from yours – both in terms of evaluating the movie and, more to the point, as relates to its relevance to typical SR scenarios.
| QUOTE | ||||
We're just talking across each other. |
I’m just trying to nail down why you would consider the crew in Heat any more "tight", "professional" and "well-funded" than a typical Shadowrun crew. In my experience and from what I’ve seen of games on this and other forums the only thing “typical” runner crews tend to lack behind the group in the movie is “tightness”. Other than that most crews I've seen are at least as competent and professional and are at least as well equipped as the Heat crew is (compared to say a real world SWAT team).
Obviously your experience is different. However, an author writing for a commercial product seeks to reach the widest audience possible and reflect their view of the canon universe as much as the developer’s own.
| QUOTE | ||||
Yeah, I probably would since I have no clue about the real world criminal underworld. Since you seem to have your finger on the pulse of the underworld, maybe you could enlighten me then. |
I won’t waste more board space with a parallel discussion. However if you’re really interested contact me on my email (in my profile) and I will forward some potentially interesting links and bibliography on current transnational crime trends and networks, as well as the role of independent “fixers” and dealers (particularly in the blossoming international Eastern European networks) in relations between syndicates and independent operators and between the syndicates themselves (there’s even some interesting cross-references in recent sources of certain such individuals acting as liaisons between traditional organized crime and terror groups).
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| I won’t waste more board space with a parallel discussion. However if you’re really interested contact me on my email (in my profile) and I will forward some potentially interesting links and bibliography on current transnational crime trends and networks, as well as the role of independent “fixers” and dealers (particularly in the blossoming international Eastern European networks) in relations between syndicates and independent operators and between the syndicates themselves (there’s even some interesting cross-references in recent sources of certain such individuals acting as liaisons between traditional organized crime and terror groups). |
Ooh, could I get some of that action?
For what it's worth, I actually do have some uses for the Vigilia in my games besides as a plot device. One player in our group is playing a vampire that's been in the same stomping grounds for the last couple of years, and another is a pretty nasty voodoun that's been making a lot of noise lately. Not something for a whole squad, but certainly worthy prey for a 'holy hitman'.
I like a lot of the groups presented, like Black Crescent especially, and plan on introducing them as well.
I'd kind of like to see a Prime Runners 2 as well acutally, to get a bit of an update on that. Some of the 'runners' from the original were not that interesting, but some of them had alot of character as well. Just no Ryan Mercury's. I don't think they could have been left out of the 'Elite's section', but I did like a little more info on Axler as well. And I guess since Grind is reviewed in there he isn't the Grind form the Red Hot Nukes like I had thought. Answers that question at least (unless he somehow has a lot of spare time and a fro now).
I like a lot of the groups presented, like Black Crescent especially, and plan on introducing them as well.
I'd kind of like to see a Prime Runners 2 as well acutally, to get a bit of an update on that. Some of the 'runners' from the original were not that interesting, but some of them had alot of character as well. Just no Ryan Mercury's. I don't think they could have been left out of the 'Elite's section', but I did like a little more info on Axler as well. And I guess since Grind is reviewed in there he isn't the Grind form the Red Hot Nukes like I had thought. Answers that question at least (unless he somehow has a lot of spare time and a fro now).
| QUOTE |
| I'd kind of like to see a Prime Runners 2 as well acutally, to get a bit of an update on that. Some of the 'runners' from the original were not that interesting, but some of them had alot of character as well. |
I've been pondering pitching a book like that, but with a new and different format. Focus it around the signature sprawls, detail the more street-level and corp-level influences on the area, and tie each of them to potential plot hooks a GM can use.
A plot hook book? that could indeed be nice, especially together with the locations book.
I want to know when the hell my local hobby stores will actually be getting this book...
That explains a lot.
Loose Alliances was available from distributors in the last week of June, so by the first week of July it should have been in most North American stores.
| QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 28 2005, 02:53 PM) |
| A plot hook book? that could indeed be nice, especially together with the locations book. |
Like the old Sprawl sites book ,which was awesome, Having something similar along with persoanlitites again would be awesome. Especially since they're expanding to 6 cities, and not just Seattle. It would be a great intro. Less "Shadows of...." and more "Sprawl Sites meets Prime Runners".
As for when it shows, my FLGS never got it in stock, but they're more than happy to order it for me. I was able to get it end of first week of July. There were some sections that I didn't really find useful to my game (neo-communism) but for the most part, I'm finding it very worthwhile. I'm rereading it again tonight to start dropping in some of these groups into my existing campaign.
| QUOTE |
| Like the old Sprawl sites book ,which was awesome, Having something similar along with persoanlitites again would be awesome. Especially since they're expanding to 6 cities, and not just Seattle. It would be a great intro. (...) "Sprawl Sites meets Prime Runners". |
Couldn't have said it better. What he said!
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| A real life comparison would be for Al Qaeda and the CIA to work together today. Yes, elements worked together in the past but that doesn't mean the two organizations will ever knowingly work together towards a common goal because their natures are diametrically opposed. Other appropriate situations would be Neo-nazi militias teaming up with Zionist radicals. Or a skinhead gang allying with an all-black gangsta crew. Is it concievable? Yes. But it stretches believability to breaking point. |
I just wanted to point out that the example of the "skinhead and black guy" is exactly what created "the Human Nation" and "Alamos 20K".
Yes and no, as in real life the skinhead and the black guy don't have a fireball-throwing ghoul to point at and yell.
| QUOTE (Synner) | ||
That is blatantly untrue and I'll call you on examples. |
And for every "yes it crosses cultural boundaries" you give, one of us (let alone all of us combined) can probably find one that doesn't. It's a common sense idiom. (shrugs)
| QUOTE (NeoJudas @ Aug 6 2005, 04:34 PM) | ||
I just wanted to point out that the example of the "skinhead and black guy" is exactly what created "the Human Nation" and "Alamos 20K". |
Huh? Could you clarify how this relates to two organizations with diametrically opposite objectives refusing to work together?
| QUOTE (NeoJudas @ Aug 6 2005, 04:41 PM) | ||||
And for every "yes it crosses cultural boundaries" you give, one of us (let alone all of us combined) can probably find one that doesn't. It's a common sense idiom. (shrugs) |
It's an American common sense idiom for sure, whether it's one the rest of the world subscribes to (for whatever reason) is another matter entirely.
| QUOTE (Synner) | ||||
Huh? Could you clarify how this relates to two organizations with diametrically opposite objectives refusing to work together? |
I'm guessing it refers to the Troll and the Nazi on the board of the Human Nation.
Or it could just be that, a skinhead and a black guy teaming up to pick on the metas they both hate.
first- Synner, AH and SL_James both have the idea of what I was saying correct.
secondly- Synner, you are a passionate person when it comes to work you are passionately involved in. You always have been and always will be. We have that in common you and I, I will always respect that/ I may not agree, but I will at least respect it. And in much of the debates that I've seen in this thread, it is a shame that specific people can't just keep a bit more level head upon their shoulders. Most of what I've seen/read is purely a difference of opinion with regards to semantics.
thirdly- and here's the part I was wanting to get to really. I have borrowed a copy of Loose Alliances from one of the other group members here. Our local game stores do not buy SR books that come out because the local market is historically dry with regards to purchasing them. And that is our fault, mostly because for several years the HHH.com game group were in the playtesters circle and absorbed immense numbers of texts (immense being 8-12 sometimes at a time for a particular title).
I am now up to page 100, deciding that I will read this book from front to back including intros and perspectis. Geesh, no wonder the conversation started out so badly here on this book it starts out with the most heated topics/subjects and most gamers/game players I know of are so heavily ideological (even the ones who don't think they are) that it would take an act of real willpower just to keep going sometimes.
I have to admit that, from the POV of someone who while not having any degrees in political science or sociological study but who is directly and deeply involved in local politics as well as social community development, the book so far has been an excellent gaming read. No, I do not agree with everything in it but any printed text about SR that is over 10 pages in size I always disagree with something somewhere. But so far, the book really is something I can find very helpful ... both as a GM (though I do so very rarely these days) and as a player.
Parts so far I've read through:
Political Agitators : This is the area that so far has had the most vehemence in the conversations online here. I really feel that while definitions of what each of the political "ism's" are is helpful, it is also at the root of the arguing here. My favorite I must admit is the "fascism" stuff. No wonder that list of "what defines a fascist regime" is so difficult to get past. Half or more of that list also defines the basis for all the other political "ism's". And then to say that a fascist regime needs three or more quantifiers from that list ... well, ultimately I guess an unwillingness to label something for what it may/may not be is just going to remain the problem.
Hands of the Elite : Well, okay this is interesting and to be honest is the largest area of the book that we'll adapt that I have read so far. Ultimately this section lays the ground work for game groups that want to have "name dropping" to happen more. When you have a group that gets involved with something special, then this chapter will likely be of great assistance when it comes to developing an underlying/overarcing storyline of NPC's. Remember, I'm saying this before I finish the last couple of sections.
Mystic Secrets : Hrm, where to start. Because one of our game sets is so heavily involved in magic, I went into this title thinking it'll be the one we use the most. Remarkably, we already do. We have the majority of this stuff in our games already but with different names/characters/corporations.
The only material we'll be dramatically rewriting is purely because of the story development(s) of our games. That being the Yucatan. In our games, the cleanup is done. It took a large amassed front and one hell of a torching and spirit storming, but it's overwith to us. Strange, what happened in our games regarding the Yucatan actually seems to almost be hinted at in the books material. Of a more personal letdown, I find lack of information regarding the Black Lodge to be saddening.
As I said, I haven't read everything yet but so far I am finding the book to be at least adequate. I am very, VERY, grateful that a lot of the material is spread out around the world as it means that the world-hopping mentality the group here has can be adapted for more readily and easily.
More later.
secondly- Synner, you are a passionate person when it comes to work you are passionately involved in. You always have been and always will be. We have that in common you and I, I will always respect that/ I may not agree, but I will at least respect it. And in much of the debates that I've seen in this thread, it is a shame that specific people can't just keep a bit more level head upon their shoulders. Most of what I've seen/read is purely a difference of opinion with regards to semantics.
thirdly- and here's the part I was wanting to get to really. I have borrowed a copy of Loose Alliances from one of the other group members here. Our local game stores do not buy SR books that come out because the local market is historically dry with regards to purchasing them. And that is our fault, mostly because for several years the HHH.com game group were in the playtesters circle and absorbed immense numbers of texts (immense being 8-12 sometimes at a time for a particular title).
I am now up to page 100, deciding that I will read this book from front to back including intros and perspectis. Geesh, no wonder the conversation started out so badly here on this book it starts out with the most heated topics/subjects and most gamers/game players I know of are so heavily ideological (even the ones who don't think they are) that it would take an act of real willpower just to keep going sometimes.
I have to admit that, from the POV of someone who while not having any degrees in political science or sociological study but who is directly and deeply involved in local politics as well as social community development, the book so far has been an excellent gaming read. No, I do not agree with everything in it but any printed text about SR that is over 10 pages in size I always disagree with something somewhere. But so far, the book really is something I can find very helpful ... both as a GM (though I do so very rarely these days) and as a player.
Parts so far I've read through:
Political Agitators : This is the area that so far has had the most vehemence in the conversations online here. I really feel that while definitions of what each of the political "ism's" are is helpful, it is also at the root of the arguing here. My favorite I must admit is the "fascism" stuff. No wonder that list of "what defines a fascist regime" is so difficult to get past. Half or more of that list also defines the basis for all the other political "ism's". And then to say that a fascist regime needs three or more quantifiers from that list ... well, ultimately I guess an unwillingness to label something for what it may/may not be is just going to remain the problem.
Hands of the Elite : Well, okay this is interesting and to be honest is the largest area of the book that we'll adapt that I have read so far. Ultimately this section lays the ground work for game groups that want to have "name dropping" to happen more. When you have a group that gets involved with something special, then this chapter will likely be of great assistance when it comes to developing an underlying/overarcing storyline of NPC's. Remember, I'm saying this before I finish the last couple of sections.
Mystic Secrets : Hrm, where to start. Because one of our game sets is so heavily involved in magic, I went into this title thinking it'll be the one we use the most. Remarkably, we already do. We have the majority of this stuff in our games already but with different names/characters/corporations.
The only material we'll be dramatically rewriting is purely because of the story development(s) of our games. That being the Yucatan. In our games, the cleanup is done. It took a large amassed front and one hell of a torching and spirit storming, but it's overwith to us. Strange, what happened in our games regarding the Yucatan actually seems to almost be hinted at in the books material. Of a more personal letdown, I find lack of information regarding the Black Lodge to be saddening.
As I said, I haven't read everything yet but so far I am finding the book to be at least adequate. I am very, VERY, grateful that a lot of the material is spread out around the world as it means that the world-hopping mentality the group here has can be adapted for more readily and easily.
More later.
Hi, this is my first post, but I’ve been lurking for about a year on and off. I finished reading LA a few days ago and I liked it. I put off buying it for a long time because of many of the complaints but I finally relented and bought it. Personally I didn’t really think there was strong European feel. Capt Chaos does use the term ‘pond’ a few times, but he uses it in reference to Europeans so I didn’t think it was too unusual (i.e. a few months ago my friend returned from a trip to Britain, when he returned I asked him how his trip across the pond was). I’ve traveled abound Europe a bit and really at a basic level the people weren’t any different than Americans. IMHO the difference between individuals is often greater than the difference between cultures. But that’s just my take, I have several close European friends so maybe I just don't notice these things. [On a side note, I think most entertainment does translate well between cultures, several top American shows are based on British shows, many popular novels and video games are created outside the US, and look how popular Japanese entertainment is in the US and you can't get much more of a foreign culture, the reverse is also true in Japan.] It’s true that few of the groups are centered around Seattle, but I don’t think that’s such a bad thing. After hearing about the NeoCommie chapter I was afraid to read it and I almost skipped it, but it was actually rather entertaining (imho). And even if you hate it, it is only about 2 ½ pages.
The first chapter (which is about various political groups) I thought was interesting. Of course my group loves to debate politics/economics/religion and many other topics, we often have opposite opinions on things. This chapter sparked an interest in them to bring some politics into the game; I foresee some very interesting role-playing. A lot of my players have been playing fairly mindless criminals for a while, so I’m happy about this.
The second chapter “Hands of the Elite” was ok. It was nice to see the UN, and I think the big flurry about the line “the UN prefers efficiency” was taken out of context. I didn’t think the UN described in LA was too realistic, but I did think it was realistic given the Shadowrun fictional background. And the author does try to explain why the circa 2060 UN looks so odd to modern eyes. The section on Aegis Cognito was kind of nice; I think I might work them into a plot sometime down the road. I also liked hearing more about the aristocrats and learning more about the Grand Tour, I think I might also use that sometime.
The third chapter “Mystic Secrets” was the real reason I bought the book. My players are very interested in the mystic secrets of SR. Right now I’m in the process of creating an archeological based mission, but I haven’t worked out the details yet. And learning a bit more about magical groups and how they work is nice.
The fourth chapter “Keepers of the Faith” better than I expected. I really liked the Vigila Evangelica. I’m thinking of creating a side campaign sometime and having the players create members of the church and hunt paranormal threats. The rest of the chapter dealt with Islamic groups. This is an area that interests me, so I was happy that it received a fair number of pages. Personally this section didn’t seem like it added too much new information (though now I’m even more certain Ibn Eisa is a Shidem). But I thought it was reasonably well done.
The last chapter “DIY Crime” was ok. Brokerage X seemed a bit dull, and this is coming from a guy who loves business (I’m a subscriber to Barron’s and the Wall Street J. and I’m working on my MBA; heck my favorite SR fictional character is the Chromed Accountant). Maybe I didn’t give it a fair shake; I will probably go back and read it again to see if I can get any ideas. The chapter also talks about Tamanous and a group of Dragon watchers. These sections gave me a few ideas I might use. Finally the chapter also talks about a few of the major SR groups out there.
Overall, I though the book was worth my time and money. This book actually gave me more ideas than most, too many in fact. I think most GMs can fit in several of these groups into their campaigns with minor alterations. The book wasn’t perfect though and I wouldn’t rate it as a ‘must have’, but I think it was well written for the most part (though the editing was pretty sloppy, but they’re probably very busy right now) and I thought it had some good ideas.
The first chapter (which is about various political groups) I thought was interesting. Of course my group loves to debate politics/economics/religion and many other topics, we often have opposite opinions on things. This chapter sparked an interest in them to bring some politics into the game; I foresee some very interesting role-playing. A lot of my players have been playing fairly mindless criminals for a while, so I’m happy about this.
The second chapter “Hands of the Elite” was ok. It was nice to see the UN, and I think the big flurry about the line “the UN prefers efficiency” was taken out of context. I didn’t think the UN described in LA was too realistic, but I did think it was realistic given the Shadowrun fictional background. And the author does try to explain why the circa 2060 UN looks so odd to modern eyes. The section on Aegis Cognito was kind of nice; I think I might work them into a plot sometime down the road. I also liked hearing more about the aristocrats and learning more about the Grand Tour, I think I might also use that sometime.
The third chapter “Mystic Secrets” was the real reason I bought the book. My players are very interested in the mystic secrets of SR. Right now I’m in the process of creating an archeological based mission, but I haven’t worked out the details yet. And learning a bit more about magical groups and how they work is nice.
The fourth chapter “Keepers of the Faith” better than I expected. I really liked the Vigila Evangelica. I’m thinking of creating a side campaign sometime and having the players create members of the church and hunt paranormal threats. The rest of the chapter dealt with Islamic groups. This is an area that interests me, so I was happy that it received a fair number of pages. Personally this section didn’t seem like it added too much new information (though now I’m even more certain Ibn Eisa is a Shidem). But I thought it was reasonably well done.
The last chapter “DIY Crime” was ok. Brokerage X seemed a bit dull, and this is coming from a guy who loves business (I’m a subscriber to Barron’s and the Wall Street J. and I’m working on my MBA; heck my favorite SR fictional character is the Chromed Accountant). Maybe I didn’t give it a fair shake; I will probably go back and read it again to see if I can get any ideas. The chapter also talks about Tamanous and a group of Dragon watchers. These sections gave me a few ideas I might use. Finally the chapter also talks about a few of the major SR groups out there.
Overall, I though the book was worth my time and money. This book actually gave me more ideas than most, too many in fact. I think most GMs can fit in several of these groups into their campaigns with minor alterations. The book wasn’t perfect though and I wouldn’t rate it as a ‘must have’, but I think it was well written for the most part (though the editing was pretty sloppy, but they’re probably very busy right now) and I thought it had some good ideas.
I have to agree there on that very last part ... the editing of the LA book SUCKED!!!!!!!! I have been reading SR now since pretty much it's inception (missed that by three months) but the quality of the grammar (and I know the difference between "game speak" and "grammar") was just horrible. I'm not saying I'm a pro here, but the editing quality was just absolutely horrendous.
Please understand that I also realize that this may not be a FanPro US problem but may be a publisher issue because of conversations I had with Mike M. way back in the day.
Please understand that I also realize that this may not be a FanPro US problem but may be a publisher issue because of conversations I had with Mike M. way back in the day.
Errr... publisher issue? I'm sorry, but what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?
I'm usually opinionated...So I'm going to keep up that tradition here, given that I got LA via UPS a while back...
Going chapter by chapter....
Actually, before I begin, an overarching thing. Synner, I must agree with NeoJ. Whoever the editor was here should have been shot. The editing was horrible. Infuriating, actually; Spelling and basic grammar mistakes abounded, seemingly. This is, hands down, the worst-edited book I've read in a long, long, long time. For anything, not simply game books.
Political Agitators
This chapter was actually decent, on a "gamefic" level. Maybe not useful, but not a bad read. I do think, however, that it got way, way, way too shrill at points, even accounting for the POVs.
Highlight of the section: The communists/neo-commies.
Oh my God. Oh my God.
I nearly peed myself multiple times reading that, it was so funny.
Hands of the Elite:
This worked surprisingly well. I have disagreements with some of the changes to the UN, but no big ones. (I do think, however, UNATCO could have been left aside. It served no purpose, unlike the rest of the UN.)
Aegis Cognito had me squirming with joy...But if only mention were given of it's lower-priced contemporaries...
Mystic Relics
Less good. This was a weak section, really.
I dunno, it just seemed...tired.
Keepers of the Faith
OK. The Vigilia had me giddy. Synner, I apologize, this came out GREAT.
However, I wanted to hurt someone with the Islamic bits.
Namely, there were some very basic mistakes made...
1. Where the hell are the Sufis?
2. Where...the...hell...are...the...Druze?
3. OK. You managed to ignore folk Islam (as practiced in, say, most of Africa and Asia). That annoys.
But...a theocratic Islamic regime in Cyprus?
Cyprus, that's mostly Greek and Christian by something like an 80-20 Greek-Turkish split?
There was no research done for this section, was there? Not even the basic research?
4. Confirming that there was no research done...The Bohras are not the Assassins...They're a subsect of the Isma'ili, previously seen on the same page.
DIY Crime
This had the potential to be such a good section, but...Ugh.
Brokerage X is entirely too high-level to ever be useful to all but the most epic campagins. The prices and eligibility minimums quoted are a bit...steep. Fittingly, yes, but...Oy.
I could have, I think, done without the runner groups like Assets. Assets especially.
DAMAGE and the Smokers Club were interesting though.
Going chapter by chapter....
Actually, before I begin, an overarching thing. Synner, I must agree with NeoJ. Whoever the editor was here should have been shot. The editing was horrible. Infuriating, actually; Spelling and basic grammar mistakes abounded, seemingly. This is, hands down, the worst-edited book I've read in a long, long, long time. For anything, not simply game books.
Political Agitators
This chapter was actually decent, on a "gamefic" level. Maybe not useful, but not a bad read. I do think, however, that it got way, way, way too shrill at points, even accounting for the POVs.
Highlight of the section: The communists/neo-commies.
Oh my God. Oh my God.
I nearly peed myself multiple times reading that, it was so funny.Hands of the Elite:
This worked surprisingly well. I have disagreements with some of the changes to the UN, but no big ones. (I do think, however, UNATCO could have been left aside. It served no purpose, unlike the rest of the UN.)
Aegis Cognito had me squirming with joy...But if only mention were given of it's lower-priced contemporaries...
Mystic Relics
Less good. This was a weak section, really.
I dunno, it just seemed...tired.
Keepers of the Faith
OK. The Vigilia had me giddy. Synner, I apologize, this came out GREAT.
However, I wanted to hurt someone with the Islamic bits.
Namely, there were some very basic mistakes made...
1. Where the hell are the Sufis?
2. Where...the...hell...are...the...Druze?
3. OK. You managed to ignore folk Islam (as practiced in, say, most of Africa and Asia). That annoys.
But...a theocratic Islamic regime in Cyprus?
Cyprus, that's mostly Greek and Christian by something like an 80-20 Greek-Turkish split?
There was no research done for this section, was there? Not even the basic research?
4. Confirming that there was no research done...The Bohras are not the Assassins...They're a subsect of the Isma'ili, previously seen on the same page.
DIY Crime
This had the potential to be such a good section, but...Ugh.
Brokerage X is entirely too high-level to ever be useful to all but the most epic campagins. The prices and eligibility minimums quoted are a bit...steep. Fittingly, yes, but...Oy.
I could have, I think, done without the runner groups like Assets. Assets especially.
DAMAGE and the Smokers Club were interesting though.
| QUOTE (Pistons) |
| Errr... publisher issue? I'm sorry, but what's that got to do with the price of tea in China? |
There was once a time when the Publishers for the SR Books (mind you, I'm speaking FASA's days not FanPro's) when the publishers would literally retype most/all of the material. Hence, even if the final editing at FASA's end was spotless the final copy would still wind up with errors that just did not make any sense how they could've been missed (spell checker's would catch the errors I'm speaking of). This is what we were told here (the whole HHH game group) by Mike M. back in the day.
Hence why I'm allowing for the possibility that FanPro might be dealing with a similar problem because the editing issues in LA were definitely more than just "spellling errors".
... and now that I'm back and done reading the book in general.
I pick up with Keeper's of the Faith.
The section gave some considerable potential for nearly all of the contained material therein. I do admit, I appreciate the "Padre Pedro" material as it showed if nothing else that even "all powerful groups" can still have problems detaining some people if those people have the will and know-how enough to evade them. Even if just for a little while.
I have to agree with Penta with regards to the Islamic section(s). I started getting the feeling I had read some of the material before and after a bit realized a chunk of it seemed to have been lifted out of a "primer" I had read two years ago. I say at least "seemed to". It was odd to have seen the Islamic populations where they were, such as Penta's mentioned Cyprus material. I do know that there are members of the Islamic Faith in Cyprus now (modern day) mind you, but they are most certainly the scant minority as compared to the older/established culturally faithful/ingrained.
It was also strange to not have a bit more material in this regard if for no other reason than the heavyweight that the entirety of the Islamic Embodiment is at this point in time. There are at least as many variations of Islam as there are Christianity (okay, maybe that's a bit extreme but it is the truth).
I would have personally enjoyed an islamic pronunciation key or examples in at least a couple places. For instance the Isma'ili, I had to verify how I was saying it with someone here locally from Algeria who is a follower of Islam and even then I got the feeling it was heavily slanged in enunciation.
DIY Crime
Okay, I admit it ... several sections from here are immediately usable by our game group here but I also have to admit that most people would refer to our games as "Epic" (if they were being polite). I greatly enjoyed the mentionings however of the various organizations/groups that get involved in things and at what level/instances they usually do. It will help us at least serve as a primer/comparison sheet here.
Game Materials
Oh thank you for all the initiatory groups insofar as the write-ups/numbers. Especially the update for the IOND, that one in particular is needed right *now* in our games ... an instance of perfect timing.
Some of the examples of "Unholy Alliances" were kinda interesting, and if nothing else gave me and the other two GM's (and some of the players) ideas as to where "System Failure" could draw upon if needs be. (the Neo-Communists just literally *SCREAMED* Deus to me).
I was however *NOT* satiated with the one or two superficial references to the Black Lodge. With that many magical groups, several of very substantial size, I just constantly find it strange that the Black Lodge (we call it "the Big Dog House" here) did not get updated as well.
Some of what I refer to as Game Hooks were helpful, but in truth if you read through LA like I did they were already being considered in the back of my head (shrugs).
Overall, even with the editing issues the book had ... as a game fic work it is very helpful to me and I personally would advise GM's and any more involved players to purchase the book. It definitely helps gives what most of people basically take for granted ... that being "world content". Definitely easier even for the highest experienced characters to be imagined better.
By the same token, I would NOT consider it for every SR player to purchase especially a newer player or a player in a game with little to no exploration beyond a given Sprawl/Metroplex. The person who made the remark about "It's all about Seattle" (my paraphrasement, I admit it) for instance should just ignore the book. But for other people ... definite read.
I pick up with Keeper's of the Faith.
The section gave some considerable potential for nearly all of the contained material therein. I do admit, I appreciate the "Padre Pedro" material as it showed if nothing else that even "all powerful groups" can still have problems detaining some people if those people have the will and know-how enough to evade them. Even if just for a little while.
I have to agree with Penta with regards to the Islamic section(s). I started getting the feeling I had read some of the material before and after a bit realized a chunk of it seemed to have been lifted out of a "primer" I had read two years ago. I say at least "seemed to". It was odd to have seen the Islamic populations where they were, such as Penta's mentioned Cyprus material. I do know that there are members of the Islamic Faith in Cyprus now (modern day) mind you, but they are most certainly the scant minority as compared to the older/established culturally faithful/ingrained.
It was also strange to not have a bit more material in this regard if for no other reason than the heavyweight that the entirety of the Islamic Embodiment is at this point in time. There are at least as many variations of Islam as there are Christianity (okay, maybe that's a bit extreme but it is the truth).
I would have personally enjoyed an islamic pronunciation key or examples in at least a couple places. For instance the Isma'ili, I had to verify how I was saying it with someone here locally from Algeria who is a follower of Islam and even then I got the feeling it was heavily slanged in enunciation.
DIY Crime
Okay, I admit it ... several sections from here are immediately usable by our game group here but I also have to admit that most people would refer to our games as "Epic" (if they were being polite). I greatly enjoyed the mentionings however of the various organizations/groups that get involved in things and at what level/instances they usually do. It will help us at least serve as a primer/comparison sheet here.
Game Materials
Oh thank you for all the initiatory groups insofar as the write-ups/numbers. Especially the update for the IOND, that one in particular is needed right *now* in our games ... an instance of perfect timing.
Some of the examples of "Unholy Alliances" were kinda interesting, and if nothing else gave me and the other two GM's (and some of the players) ideas as to where "System Failure" could draw upon if needs be. (the Neo-Communists just literally *SCREAMED* Deus to me).
I was however *NOT* satiated with the one or two superficial references to the Black Lodge. With that many magical groups, several of very substantial size, I just constantly find it strange that the Black Lodge (we call it "the Big Dog House" here) did not get updated as well.
Some of what I refer to as Game Hooks were helpful, but in truth if you read through LA like I did they were already being considered in the back of my head (shrugs).
Overall, even with the editing issues the book had ... as a game fic work it is very helpful to me and I personally would advise GM's and any more involved players to purchase the book. It definitely helps gives what most of people basically take for granted ... that being "world content". Definitely easier even for the highest experienced characters to be imagined better.
By the same token, I would NOT consider it for every SR player to purchase especially a newer player or a player in a game with little to no exploration beyond a given Sprawl/Metroplex. The person who made the remark about "It's all about Seattle" (my paraphrasement, I admit it) for instance should just ignore the book. But for other people ... definite read.
So this is what you were talking about, I think....Okay now it makes sense.
I bought the book a few days ago and did read most of it (all except "political agitators"). Great content!
Whatever your campaign focus may be, at least part of it will be useable.
I did like mystic relics and keepers of the faith, but we have a magocentric campaign. Very, very nice.
Brokerage X is also good, but the average ROI will be adjusted downwards, preferably by incorporating a risk of capital loss.
On the editing: I bought the german version, and was quite shocked. Many very obvious and painful errors. Painful enough to delay buying SR4 until 3rd printing or something, as we likely won´t switch before Street Magic and the cyberware book are available either way.
Whatever your campaign focus may be, at least part of it will be useable.
I did like mystic relics and keepers of the faith, but we have a magocentric campaign. Very, very nice.
Brokerage X is also good, but the average ROI will be adjusted downwards, preferably by incorporating a risk of capital loss.
On the editing: I bought the german version, and was quite shocked. Many very obvious and painful errors. Painful enough to delay buying SR4 until 3rd printing or something, as we likely won´t switch before Street Magic and the cyberware book are available either way.
Haven't we already seen that with SoE? :roll:
That's why I only buy English books anymore. I could care less about AGS-specific stuff anyway. I greatly dislike the setting, myself.
That's why I only buy English books anymore. I could care less about AGS-specific stuff anyway. I greatly dislike the setting, myself.
The last releases all had been awfully bad edited. So i go with hermit and buy only english books.
| QUOTE (NeoJudas) |
| There was once a time when the Publishers for the SR Books (mind you, I'm speaking FASA's days not FanPro's) when the publishers would literally retype most/all of the material. |
This was related to the novels, where ROC was the publisher. FASA and FanPro are the publishers of the game material, even though they aren't the printer.
| QUOTE (Adam) | ||
This was related to the novels, where ROC was the publisher. FASA and FanPro are the publishers of the game material, even though they aren't the printer. |
Hrm ... really? That wasn't the reference I was originally given, but at this point we're digressing from the LA topic at large too far.
back on topic now : After some intense discussion, I think I have a problem with the way some wording on the suggested locations for the four libraries mentioned in the Vigilia section are worded. They mention the four, with one of them being "on the boundaries of Amazonia" (paraphrased, not a direct quote). We hammered this one out.
If the two first/older ones are in Europe, then (due to historical migration and theocratical/hierarchial politics of the ages) Tertius (the third one) is in South America somewhere and likely to be Argentina ("Buenos Aires" definitely leaps to mind of course... you would need a cities background count/astral prevalance to hide something of that importance/magnitude). I did note the comment by Padre Pedro however which made me do a double take and consider something more insidious (and Aztlanerish) in nature.
Quartius would *NOT* be in any of the former U.S. territories because of the founding and extending following belonging to the "revolutionary religions" of the time. Puritans, Quakers, Mormons, etc.... are nowhere near being "at the Core of Mother Church". As such, I would argue Quartus as being in Quebec ... no matter how much I want to have it in the former U.S.
I'm saying the third in the south-western hemisphere because insofar as the religious emersion/conversion is concerned, the catholic diocene historically had a better grasp into South America than it did North America (note: I'm skipping Central America in this description).
Just some food for thought.
Note there are several South American countries besides Argentina and Amazonia still on the Sixth World map including a sliver of Colombia, Ecuador, Bolivia and a few more... also note that Florida was Spanish for a very long time.
The question is, how old is quartus? Rejecting any location without that information will not be possible, IMO.
Considering that Spanish influence extended as far north as Washington and as far east as New Orleans (Plus Florida and southern Georgia), I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that it's in the old U.S.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Considering that Spanish influence extended as far north as Washington and as far east as New Orleans (Plus Florida and southern Georgia), I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that it's in the old U.S. |
As far west as California, if you please.
Click here for a good start on information on this. And note that New Spain was centered on what in SR is Aztlan ... maybe Quartius was moved when Aztlan became what it is now? If so, I'd suggest some Californian or Floridan city.
Hey, it may even be in the Carribean.
Hey, it may even be in the Carribean.
If i had a secret library i would place it in a tourist resort. At least the people working there can als enjoy there life. 
Workforce satisfaction is not on the HCCs agenda, I´m afraid. 
On the other hand, if they know that I think that they would never.... you don´t suppose Disney Land is just a convenient cover for Qartius?
On the other hand, if they know that I think that they would never.... you don´t suppose Disney Land is just a convenient cover for Qartius?
Thought: Perhaps its in Boston?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.