Quickie Pixie Summoner
Attributes:
Bod 1, Agil 3, Rea 4, Str 1, Cha 7, Int 4, Log 3, Will 7, Ess 6, Init 8, Pass 1, Edge 4, Magic 6
Skills:
Assensing 2, Counterspelling 3, Dodge 1 (Ranged), Infiltration 1 (Urban,) Perception 1 (Hearing,) Spellcasting 4, Summoning 6 (Man,) Binding 4 (Man.)
Positive Qualities:
Magician, Mentor Spirit (Dog or something with Spirits of Man,) Restricted Gear (Power Focus.)
Negative Qualities:
Addiction (Mild,) Allergy (Uncommon, Moderate,) Weak Immune System, Sensitive System.
Gear:
Power Focus Rating 4, Sustaining Focus Rating 3. Binding materials for force 9 spirit, 50thousandish in other gear.

Summoning Spirit of Man:
6skill+6magic+4power+2spec+2mentor = 20 dice (average 6 hits, 10 after spending edge for rerolls)

Binding SoM:
4skill+6magic+4power+2spec+2mentor = 18 dice (average 6 hits, 10 after spending edge for rerolls)

Drain:
Base = 7cha+7will = 14 (average 4 hits, 6 with rerolls.)
After you summon and bind a force 7+ spirit of man that casts Improve Attribute (Cha and Will) = 7cha+4to6+7will+4to6 = 22-24 (24 is max racial stats which gives 8 average hits, 13 with rerolls.)

When Summoning and Binding always cast Shapechange to gain +6 to body, sustain with focus. First summon will cast and sustain Improved drain attributes to aid in surviving the Binding test. Spend edge at all four steps if necessary (1 summon, 2 drain, 3 bind, 4 drain.) You only need 1 net hit on the Binding test, so you really only need to make sure you get good net hits on the Summoning test so take your time to get a good one. Possession tradition is helpful here since you can have the summoned spirit possess you for an added Body boost.

When looking at max force ratings, if you are doing this in downtime, you’ll generally be looking for scenarios where you can stage down the damage to 1 less than your physical condition monitor. It won’t matter if you take a lot of damage since you’re just looking at either success or death. So with the Shapechanged Pixie, max damage after all is said and done needs to be less than 11 since it’ll have 12 physical in whatever form it takes. If you play the averages then you can stage down 13 damage. So generally 12 hits from the spirit and you can live. Again, playing averages that means summoning a force 36 spirit, or binding a force 18. Just remember neither side will always be hitting those averages so you can still reduce yourself to a tiny, cute smear on the wall. And of course you can't summon anything more than double your magic.

Achieving and successfully achieving are the same thing. It's a tautology.
If you achieve something, it was successful.

If you need 5 hits to achieve an action you don't have any hope to succeed unless you have at least 5 dice.

Except the Pixie cannot shapechange to obtain a body of +6... BY Raw, your Pixie example will only ever manage to go to a Body of 3 (+/- 2 from base stat)... Kind of puts a kink in that plan of yours...

Keep the Faith

Even if you say that, on an absurdly awesome roll by the force 18 spirit like 36 successes and it is a great form so you are soaking over 100 boxes. Is that impossible?? Nope if I were to use edge I could theoretically get over 100 exploding 6's. So when I burn edge isn't it withing the realm of possible?

Creature with a base Body of 3, +1 to all Physical attributes per Hit on the spellcasting test.

Except you would be pummeled with the Nerf Bat continuously until unconsciousness if you tried that at our table...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Sure... I will buy that I guess... but then I would say that you were not able to cast spells as a Creature (unless you chose a Metahuman as your Creature)... This seems like a fine bit of splitting hairs in my opinion...

Just sayin'

Keep the Faith

Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The
subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating
is 2 points greater or less than her own. Consult the Critters section,
p. 292, for the subject’s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1
to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates.
Her Mental attributes remain unchanged.

Even if you say that, on an absurdly awesome roll by the force 18 spirit like 36 successes and it is a great form so you are soaking over 100 boxes. Is that impossible?? Nope if I were to use edge I could theoretically get over 100 exploding 6's. So when I burn edge isn't it withing the realm of possible?

Doesn't matter. Rules as Written it is entirely possible.

And just because I could, at your table, I would use 1 or 2 loaded dice just to spite you.

My general rule of thumb is that once the general chance of success drops below a certain point, you can't roll dice. Given that the probability of a given player rolling 100 successes on 18-24 dice based on exploding 6s alone is slightly less than the roll I would let them make to reach into their pocket and magically produce orichalcum, no, they don't get to burn edge.
Because as soon as I start ruling that's they can burn edge for something that insane, they'll start burning edge of Data Search rolls to find things that you just can't find, because they could THEORETICALLY get enough successes. And I hate that shit.

But your projection will be limited to a number of hours equal to your Magic rating.

Because as soon as I start ruling that's they can burn edge for something that insane, they'll start burning edge of Data Search rolls to find things that you just can't find, because they could THEORETICALLY get enough successes. It opens you up to the territory of "I could theoretically roll enough to do anything if I spent edge and got enough 6s." It's not impossible to sneak past that guard by climing onto his head and singing The Star Spangled Banner at the top of your lungs, it's just really UNLIKELY you'll do so. But hey, if you burn edge, you can do it!

Very smart of you to give examples that are clearly defined as impossible in the rules, & thus are never allowed for Burning edge anyways.

Very smart of you to give examples that are clearly defined as impossible in the rules, & thus are never allowed for Burning edge anyways.

My general rule of thumb is that once the general chance of success drops below a certain point, you can't burn edge. Given that the probability of a given player rolling 100 successes on 18-24 dice based on exploding 6s alone is slightly less than the roll I would let them make to reach into their pocket and magically produce orichalcum, no, they don't get to burn edge.

Because as soon as I start ruling that's they can burn edge for something that insane, they'll start burning edge of Data Search rolls to find things that you just can't find, because they could THEORETICALLY get enough successes. It opens you up to the territory of "I could theoretically roll enough to do anything if I spent edge and got enough 6s." It's not impossible to sneak past that guard by climing onto his head and singing The Star Spangled Banner at the top of your lungs, it's just really UNLIKELY you'll do so. But hey, if you burn edge, you can do it!

No, some things defy possibility despite theoretically achieving enough successes with a burned point of edge. Like climbing a man and shouting in his ear and having him not notice, or building a car in three seconds, or soaking the drain from a Force 18 great form spirit if your drain pool is like... 6. Or even if it's 18. If I was feeling generous, I might let them roll, and if they managed to soak half the drain then they could burn edge. And a force 18 spirit is probably going to net itself some 18 hits or so, resulting in 54 drain.

There are no physical requirements for spellcasting whatsoever. So shut the fuck up.

Doesn't matter. Rules as Written it is entirely possible.

And just because I could, at your table, I would use 1 or 2 loaded dice just to spite you.

There are no physical requirements for spellcasting whatsoever. So shut the fuck up.

By the way, don't take this post to seriously. Clearly this is unbalanced and I would not allow this in a game I ran. It just got me to thinking of HOW could it be done.

Well, I'm perfectly calm. I just wanted to point out once again that Shadowrun isn't D&D 4th, and requires a modicum of GM adjudication for certain rules lest everything descend into madness.

It just got me to thinking of HOW could it be done.

Don't feed the trolls.

(I still want to play as a Twisted troll adept who powers his blood magic by crushing pixies in his hands.)

Achieving and successfully achieving are the same thing. It's a tautology.
If you achieve something, it was successful.

If you need 5 hits to achieve an action you don't have any hope to succeed unless you have at least 5 dice.

Because as soon as I start ruling that's they can burn edge for something that insane, they'll start burning edge of Data Search rolls to find things that you just can't find, because they could THEORETICALLY get enough successes. It opens you up to the territory of "I could theoretically roll enough to do anything if I spent edge and got enough 6s." It's not impossible to sneak past that guard by climing onto his head and singing The Star Spangled Banner at the top of your lungs, it's just really UNLIKELY you'll do so. But hey, if you burn edge, you can do it!

My impression was that he was setting a line that the players could not go beyond in the face of what is Possible and what is not... when the thresholds get so rediculous as compared to your dice pool, a good GM SHOULD say NO... that way no more time is wasted on an action that is, for all intents and purposes, impossible... Sure you could argue that it is still POSSIBLE, but I am going to call BS at that point and just not let you burn that Edge...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Or have 1 die, and access to an exploding dice pool, which edge does allow for.

That does not help much, because you can only use Edge once for any given action. If you get access to exploding sixes, you actually have to roll enough to beat the threshold, or if you want a critical success on an insanely high threshold test, you have to be mathematically capable of achieving the threshold.

If the odds of success are >0 then you can according to the rules.

Example: With a threshold 100 and a dice pool <100 you can either use Edge to make the roll mathematically possible, or burn Edge to achieve a critical success. You can't do both and the latter should be disallowed because the action was impossible for the character in the first place (i.e. without Edge).

Example: With a threshold 100 and a dice pool <100 you can either use Edge to make the roll mathematically possible, or burn Edge to achieve a critical success. You can't do both and the latter should be disallowed because the action was impossible for the character in the first place (i.e. without Edge).

Shadowrun isn't D&D 4th. Adjudication of SR rules leads the GM into madness. SR makes you crazy, D&D gives you cancer.

Argh you are actually right. Only one point per action only applies to using Edge not burning it. Let the silliness begin!

If the odds of success are >0 then you can according to the rules.

I am rounding this a little bit, because I was feeling lazy.

5.5 x 10^-70
Or
.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000055 PERCENT chance of getting 100 successes with 30 dice.

Actually you can't.... Something things simply do not exist on a given network regardless of how good a data search check you make is. Just like using long shot to justify 'ignoring armor' to allow you to bypass 6 buildings over 3 blocks can also be rules as a 'piss off twerp' scenario. The just getting an improbably good soak role however 'can' happen, and so the character by RAW should be permitted to do so.

Is 100 successes, from theoretically possible but mathematic improbable (to the point that the world "impossible" is valid in anything but the strictest sense) combination of 6's, really what the original post was about?

Or was it asking about ways you could -actually- do the feat in-game?

Bypass armor, called shot, whatever. I think that hitting someone 3 block over, with buildings in the way, is more likely than getting the number quoted above.

I am rounding this a little bit, because I was feeling lazy.

5.5 x 10^-70
Or
.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000055 PERCENT chance of getting 100 successes with 30 dice.

The solution is Spirits of Man.

They are a neat little edge-case that can be handily exploited to achieve this result.

Sustaining penalties apply to the roll a spirit makes to resist Binding.

Even a single summoning success is all you need to bind a F18 Spirit of Man. I would recommend giving it Shapechange as an Innate Spell, I would also go with a Possession Tradition and give it both Increase(Drain Stat) spells.

Technically, services used, by RAW, are not how many spells or powers it must use to achieve the request but merely how many individual requests have been made.

"Possess me and, starting with me, augment every metahuman in the room, to the utmost limit of your ability, with all the spells that you know until I have finished Binding you."

It ain't going to be happy but if there are six of you in the room it will be suffering a -36 dice penalty when it opposes your Binding roll.

Job done.

I like this analysis of possible.

Assuming we are talking about a complex action, the probability of success still approaches zero (10^-55) if you had tried with every complex action since the formation of the Earth.

Even every sentient being that has ever existed since the dawn of time trying non-stop since the dawn of said time, assuming 100 billion habitable worlds in the observable universe has close to zero chance (~10^-25) of having succeeded in this endeavour. Assuming that they all had unlimited Edge to play with....

I think everybody here (except Muss.) will be happy to define this as not possible and move on to discussing the OP.

The solution is Spirits of Man.

They are a neat little edge-case that can be handily exploited to achieve this result.

Sustaining penalties apply to the roll a spirit makes to resist Binding.

Even a single summoning success is all you need to bind a F18 Spirit of Man. I would recommend giving it Shapechange as an Innate Spell, I would also go with a Possession Tradition and give it both Increase(Drain Stat) spells.

Technically, services used, by RAW, are not how many spells or powers it must use to achieve the request but merely how many individual requests have been made.

"Possess me and, starting with me, augment every metahuman in the room, to the utmost limit of your ability, with all the spells that you know until I have finished Binding you."

It ain't going to be happy but if there are six of you in the room it will be suffering a -36 dice penalty when it opposes your Binding roll.

Job done.

This is where you start pissing off the spirit. First, it will count that as multiple services, using any sort of sentence break as a separate service. This makes sense, as 'possess me and cast a spell on me.' is the same as "Possess me. Cast a spell on me." and thus if you piss off a spirit they'll translate into the second way and charge you two services.

Your example would be at the very least count as the following services.
1. Possess me.
2. Augment every metahuman.
3. Start with me.
4. To the best of your ability.
5. Until I have finished Binding you.

As soon as you run out of services before the spirit reaches task 5 it will vanish since you never specified how long.
This will also gain you things like the spirit bane quality.
This is also when spirits of man will burn edge to resist summonings in the future, and of course resist bindings as well.
You will likely have the spirit exploiting loopholes. It will for instance continually recast a single buff spell on the same person until it gets nothing but hits, because otherwise it isn't buffing to the utmost of it's ability. Alternatively it will cast a F36 buff spell and KO itself so it can go back to its metaplane.

This is where you start pissing off the GM.

{stuff}

Fixed that for ya.

Your example would be at the very least count as the following services.
1. Possess me.
2. Augment every metahuman.
3. Start with me.
4. To the best of your ability.
5. Until I have finished Binding you.

Fixed that for ya.

Just like twisting a Wish in the cancer game this amounts to the GM arbitrarily picking on a player. When you find yourself picking holes in the idiosyncrasies of a particular language to ignore intent you have strayed from the path of impartial arbiter.

Buff everyone in the room is no more multiple services than kill everyone in the room. Every extraneous word and piece of punctuation in the instruction exists solely to clarify intent and pre-empt GM Asshat-ery.

A Weasel move like that is just going to result in bad feeling and a player who, now that you have defined ground rules, comes back with a character that can and will succeed. Unless you ret-con the position of the goal-posts yet again.

Continual use of a specifi c power counts as only one service.
A spirit can use its powers on an individual target or a
group, depending on the power.