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hobgoblin
a high enough force spirit can bring a stationary brick to warp 10...
Karoline
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Feb 25 2010, 09:01 AM) *
It's likely more akin to the quick crouch-walk that a soldier uses while clearing rooms or shooting while moving.


Also, to kill some time, I statted out a base 400bp SURGE troll mage char using possession traditions who can break mach 2.5 on foot.
Shit is gobbles.


As stated, when you throw magic into the mix, you throw real world comparisons out. A high force spirit can propel an average human to near mach speeds.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Feb 24 2010, 04:35 PM) *
You don't full move each IP. You full move each combat turn, no matter how many IPs your turn breaks down into.


Yeah, I know. This is looking at it as an option (anti-RAW). The silly thing about RAW is that a 1 IP character moves his full move, while a 4 IP character moves 1/4 during their IP. This leads to the 1IP character being able to charge another character when the 2 IP would only cove half the distance. This is the only inconsistency in the movement rules in SR4A.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Feb 25 2010, 07:41 AM) *
So a troll with skimmer disks starts out moving 70m/ct, and can sprint on top of that?

Let us math this bitch out.

4 IP, max DP, a Force 12 Air Elemental backing with Movement...

211.2 kph * 12 = 2534.4 kph or approx. Mach 2.

Pretty good for a running record, imo.


Yes, but what is his ramming damage? grinbig.gif
DireRadiant
All movement during a turn are Declarations of movement. The resolution of whether or not the declared characters action is successful is resolved by the end of the combat turn. Not by IP. Don't confuse the OOC action of a player declaring the movement with the IC actions and results.
hobgoblin
heck, while a rpg sorts things in neat sections, real life have everything happen all at once.

the rpgs that tries to emulate the latter, often end up with inconsistencies like having a vehicle one was about to enter be blown up (or did it blow up right after one entered?), meaning a action was basically wasted.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Feb 25 2010, 06:58 AM) *
Yeah, I know. This is looking at it as an option (anti-RAW). The silly thing about RAW is that a 1 IP character moves his full move, while a 4 IP character moves 1/4 during their IP. This leads to the 1IP character being able to charge another character when the 2 IP would only cove half the distance. This is the only inconsistency in the movement rules in SR4A.


They declare movement, and then it is broken up, giving the guy with 4IP the chance to cock-block the charge by simply moving out of the way on IP2 or 3.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 25 2010, 06:51 AM) *
The problem is there are two different rules in the book. One (Under sprint) says that the bonus from sprint lasts the entire CT, and the other (under movement) says that the bonus lasts only until the person's next IP.

No, actually. Nothing under Movement 'resets' your movement rate during a Combat Turn as you insist on claiming. It only provides rules for figuring out exactly how far someone travels in a turn or pass if modes of movement are fixed. It in no way overrides the movement bonus of Sprint actions, which are stackable, and provide a flat bonus of 2m per hit, over a Combat Turn.
kjones
Another thing that makes no sense within the granularity of the rules - grenade detonation. If you throw a grenade, it detonates at the beginning your next pass. Therefore, if I have 1 IP, the grenade is on a 3-second fuse, but if I turn on my wired reflexes to get 2 IP, the grenade is now on a 1.5-second fuse.

Should this be houseruled? (Or have I been doing this wrong? Or does this deserve its own thread?)
hobgoblin
QUOTE (kjones @ Feb 26 2010, 12:33 AM) *
Another thing that makes no sense within the granularity of the rules - grenade detonation. If you throw a grenade, it detonates at the beginning your next pass. Therefore, if I have 1 IP, the grenade is on a 3-second fuse, but if I turn on my wired reflexes to get 2 IP, the grenade is now on a 1.5-second fuse.

Should this be houseruled? (Or have I been doing this wrong? Or does this deserve its own thread?)

not exactly. It says that the grenade detonates at the throwers initiative score, during the next initiative pass. It does not say that said thrower have to have actions during that pass.

so if your character have one pass, and is fighting someone that has two, you could throw a grenade during your pass, and it would detonate during the second pass, at your initiative score.
Karoline
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 25 2010, 06:25 PM) *
No, actually. Nothing under Movement 'resets' your movement rate during a Combat Turn as you insist on claiming. It only provides rules for figuring out exactly how far someone travels in a turn or pass if modes of movement are fixed. It in no way overrides the movement bonus of Sprint actions, which are stackable, and provide a flat bonus of 2m per hit, over a Combat Turn.


Go read the thread I linked to where I quoted the rules that do indeed indicate you reset your movement speed, and where I detail it all out very clearly. I don't feel like looking up and re-explaining the rules to you if you can't be bothered to read what I've posted on the subject before insulting me.
JoelHalpern
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 25 2010, 10:03 AM) *
All movement during a turn are Declarations of movement. The resolution of whether or not the declared characters action is successful is resolved by the end of the combat turn. Not by IP. Don't confuse the OOC action of a player declaring the movement with the IC actions and results.


This is a great theory, but I have trouble matching it with the rest of the rules.
A character can run and attack.
A 1 IP character has their attack resolved during IP 1 of a turn. It has effects which change the actions of folks on IPs 2, 3, and 4.
(Unless SR4A really changed the way movement and attacks interact in combat, in which case I apologize for this post.)
So you can't say that the move, which ended before the attack, did not finish until the end of the combat turn.
At least not say it in a way I understand.

Yours,
Joel
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 25 2010, 06:44 PM) *
Go read the thread I linked to where I quoted the rules that do indeed indicate you reset your movement speed, and where I detail it all out very clearly. I don't feel like looking up and re-explaining the rules to you if you can't be bothered to read what I've posted on the subject before insulting me.

Go read the thread you linked to where you referenced the rules saying that, & I quoted the rules not saying that.
kjones
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 25 2010, 07:26 PM) *
not exactly. It says that the grenade detonates at the throwers initiative score, during the next initiative pass. It does not say that said thrower have to have actions during that pass.

so if your character have one pass, and is fighting someone that has two, you could throw a grenade during your pass, and it would detonate during the second pass, at your initiative score.


That makes more sense from a game balance perspective, but even less sense from a realism perspective. If I throw a grenade at you, it has a 3-second fuse, unless you have Wired Reflexes, in which case it's a 1.5 second fuse?
Draco18s
QUOTE (kjones @ Feb 26 2010, 03:00 PM) *
That makes more sense from a game balance perspective, but even less sense from a realism perspective. If I throw a grenade at you, it has a 3-second fuse, unless you have Wired Reflexes, in which case it's a 1.5 second fuse?


Another good reason to have 4 initiate passes all the time: its not just for movement now.
kjones
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 26 2010, 03:02 PM) *
Another good reason to have 4 initiate passes all the time: its not just for movement now.


Why four? Is that a hard maximum?
Axl
Yes, four IPs is the maximum.
Emy
edit: nevermind, got some rules confused

Actually, while I'm here... how well would this work?

Add 2 meters per hit gained from the sprinting test to the movement in the current IP only. This means:

1) It works with the requirement that you have to use a sprinting action during each IP.
2) It adds the right amount of distance to the total distance that you can move in the turn. (Running Rate)
3) It doesn't require time travel.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Axl @ Feb 26 2010, 03:07 PM) *
Yes, four IPs is the maximum.


Matrix is 5........via a technomance ability and IIRC some piece of headware.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (kjones @ Feb 26 2010, 05:00 PM) *
That makes more sense from a game balance perspective, but even less sense from a realism perspective. If I throw a grenade at you, it has a 3-second fuse, unless you have Wired Reflexes, in which case it's a 1.5 second fuse?


I don't understand. It will explode on the next IP, doesn't matter if anybody has extra IP's or not. If you throw a grenade at the third IP, it will explode in the fourth. If you throw it at the fourth IP, it will explode at the first IP of the next turn.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Feb 26 2010, 03:27 PM) *
I don't understand. It will explode on the next IP, doesn't matter if anybody has extra IP's or not. If you throw a grenade at the third IP, it will explode in the fourth. If you throw it at the fourth IP, it will explode at the first IP of the next turn.


His point was that if the combat is between a unagumented character and one who has 2 IPs, then the fuse is 1.5 seconds long.
However if the combat is between two unagumented characters then the fuse is 3 seconds long.
Which is why I suggested 4 IP all the time.
kjones
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Feb 26 2010, 03:27 PM) *
I don't understand. It will explode on the next IP, doesn't matter if anybody has extra IP's or not. If you throw a grenade at the third IP, it will explode in the fourth. If you throw it at the fourth IP, it will explode at the first IP of the next turn.


I understand the "there are always 4 IPs" perspective, but even that has its problems. Let's say there's a battle between two people, each of whom has 1 IP. They both shoot each other twice (SA) in the first 0.75 seconds of the round, and then stand there and do nothing for 2.25 seconds.

You could argue that it should be re-fluffed, with their actions spread out over the entire turn, but that doesn't make sense either - if a third guy comes in that has 4 IPs, he can spend the last three of them reacting to stuff that they did in the first IP.

AAH I HATE SHADOWRUN
DireRadiant
All actions for a combat turn are not resolved until the end of the combat turn. During a Combat Turn it is all declarations of intent. That is the nature of all turn based resolution systems.
hobgoblin
remember one thing, the fuse time of the grenade is freely adjustable, it just defaults, pr the rules, to next IP after the throw.

this could be that the thrower tries to set it to the shortest interval that will hopefully catch any reflexively fast targets before they can do anything more fancy then go "oh crud!", on instinct. Hopefully the thrower will get it far enough away that he is not caught in the blast.

still, the multiple actions in a round thing probably worked better as a concept back when it came out of the initiative roll, and the best roll could buy you multiple actions before anyone else got anything done. But as game balance and fun came into consideration, the rule that everyone was to do one thing before the rest of the actions where to resolve came into being. This while the rule that a combat round lasted a set amount of time stayed, making things odd if one looked at it closely.

btw, i just reminded myself of the sla way.

there you could have up to 5 passes in a round, but they where staggered like a pyramid.

if you had 1 pass, you did it on pass 3.
if you had 2, it was 1 and 5, or 2 and 4.
3 passes, and you got 1, 3 and 5.
4 passes, 1, 2, 4, 5.
5 passes, all 5 of them.
Draco18s
QUOTE (kjones @ Feb 26 2010, 03:33 PM) *
I understand the "there are always 4 IPs" perspective, but even that has its problems. Let's say there's a battle between two people, each of whom has 1 IP. They both shoot each other twice (SA) in the first 0.75 seconds of the round, and then stand there and do nothing for 2.25 seconds.


1st pass, player A: I shoot *spends 30 seconds resolving the roll*
1st pass, player B: I shoot *spends 30 seconds resolving the roll*
2nd pass: nothing *GM spends 5 seconds asking if anyone is doing anything in passes 2 through 4*
3rd pass: nothing *0 seconds*
4th pass: nothing *0 seconds*

Voila. You just resolved a full combat turn with 4 IPs in the same time it took to do 1. They might be standing around for 2.25 seconds in game, but table time is negligible.
kjones
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 26 2010, 04:22 PM) *
1st pass, player A: I shoot *spends 30 seconds resolving the roll*
1st pass, player B: I shoot *spends 30 seconds resolving the roll*
2nd pass: nothing *GM spends 5 seconds asking if anyone is doing anything in passes 2 through 4*
3rd pass: nothing *0 seconds*
4th pass: nothing *0 seconds*

Voila. You just resolved a full combat turn with 4 IPs in the same time it took to do 1. They might be standing around for 2.25 seconds in game, but table time is negligible.


I get that, that's fine. From a gameplay perspective, it's not a problem. It's the "standing around for 2.25 seconds" parts that bugs me.
Draco18s
QUOTE (kjones @ Feb 26 2010, 04:43 PM) *
I get that, that's fine. From a gameplay perspective, it's not a problem. It's the "standing around for 2.25 seconds" parts that bugs me.


Then skip it unless grenades or movement are involved.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (kjones @ Feb 26 2010, 05:43 PM) *
I get that, that's fine. From a gameplay perspective, it's not a problem. It's the "standing around for 2.25 seconds" parts that bugs me.


I get the complaint, but its something that needs to get hand waved in a turn based game. I remember in 3e D&D they decided that you could not jump further than your movement, that if your jump result exceeded your movement you'd be floating in midair until your next turn so you could finish the jump. That level of logic bending I could not deal with. I just let people jump further than there movement and was done with it. SRs problem is multiple passes, if you are done on pass 1. now you are sitting around for 2+seconds twiddling your thumbs. It doesn't make any logical sense.

I'm okay accepting that the 1 IP guy is actually taking close to 3 seconds to finish his act and game mechanic wise it happens in 1 pass. I just try not to think about it much.
pbangarth
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 26 2010, 01:47 PM) *
All actions for a combat turn are not resolved until the end of the combat turn. During a Combat Turn it is all declarations of intent. That is the nature of all turn based resolution systems.
Just so I have your point straight, DR, are you saying the following:

PCa has 1 IP, PCb has 3 IPs

IP#1: PCa declares action, PCb declares action
IP#2: PCb declares action
IP#3: PCb declares action, all four actions are resolved

If so, this doesn't make sense to me.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Feb 26 2010, 07:11 PM) *
I get the complaint, but its something that needs to get hand waved in a turn based game. I remember in 3e D&D they decided that you could not jump further than your movement, that if your jump result exceeded your movement you'd be floating in midair until your next turn so you could finish the jump. That level of logic bending I could not deal with. I just let people jump further than there movement and was done with it. SRs problem is multiple passes, if you are done on pass 1. now you are sitting around for 2+seconds twiddling your thumbs. It doesn't make any logical sense.

I'm okay accepting that the 1 IP guy is actually taking close to 3 seconds to finish his act and game mechanic wise it happens in 1 pass. I just try not to think about it much.


OR, go like GURPS, where every turn is just ONE second. Divide by four all movement rates and consider that people with extra IP's work just like Altered time flow, or whatever the advantage is called in english, it costs 100 point and 1 second passes to you as two seconds, so you can take two turns at once.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Feb 27 2010, 01:22 AM) *
OR, go like GURPS, where every turn is just ONE second. Divide by four all movement rates and consider that people with extra IP's work just like Altered time flow, or whatever the advantage is called in english, it costs 100 point and 1 second passes to you as two seconds, so you can take two turns at once.


Damn 1 second turns. What can you get done in a turn?
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Feb 27 2010, 03:36 AM) *
Damn 1 second turns. What can you get done in a turn?


1- attack once and defend once -OR-
2- move and defend once -OR-
3- total attack -OR-
4- total defense

And this is where really good shooters shine, there is a firearms attribute called snapshot, you must have your firearms skill at this level AFTER modifiers to be able to shoot without aiming (aiming costs one turn), if you try to shoot anyway, you add another -4 penalty to your roll (life is unfair...). It really tries to simulate real time situations.
hobgoblin
how about this, wired reflexes do not so much make one physically faster as cognitively faster.

that is, it accelerates how fast you can process unfolding events and act in response. So when the unwired person takes 2 seconds after their action to do something else, its because they are still processing the new data. The wired person however is already done processing, and have put another action into motion based on that.

consider how, when running or driving, one get tunnel vision of events. This is because the brain have to throw away data so as to be able to react to things in ones direct movement path in time. With wired reflexes that tunnel vision goes away.

For a unwired observer on the outside, the wired person may seem very fast in how he can block and counterattack in melee, or shoot multiple people before the unwired person was aware that they where even present. Yet for the wired person, the unwired is agonizingly slow to react to things that happen at what the wired person will consider normal speed.
Draco18s
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 27 2010, 06:08 AM) *
For a unwired observer on the outside, the wired person may seem very fast in how he can block and counterattack in melee, or shoot multiple people before the unwired person was aware that they where even present. Yet for the wired person, the unwired is agonizingly slow to react to things that happen at what the wired person will consider normal speed.


I gets weird when a wired person can fire more bullets by pulling the trigger over and over than the unwired character can just by holding it down in full auto.
nyahnyah.gif
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 27 2010, 12:43 PM) *
I gets weird when a wired person can fire more bullets by pulling the trigger over and over than the unwired character can just by holding it down in full auto.
nyahnyah.gif


It's because, you know, the weapon knows it is being handled by a bad-ass motherfucker and is too afraid of he/she is going to do to it if the weapon doesn't keep up to his/her pace cyber.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Feb 26 2010, 01:24 PM) *
Matrix is 5........via a technomance ability and IIRC some piece of headware.


Indeed...

Keep the Faith
Karoline
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Feb 27 2010, 11:17 AM) *
It's because, you know, the weapon knows it is being handled by a bad-ass motherfucker and is too afraid of he/she is going to do to it if the weapon doesn't keep up to his/her pace cyber.gif


Sounds like a good enough way to explain it. Now I have to envision a troll:

"Look 'ere gun, you best fire faster or I'ma gonna crush you into a paper weight"
"Yes Sir! Full auto rate increased to 600 rounds/second from 200!"

Of course perhaps the really funny part is that in order to cover a hallway for 3 seconds with the same efficiency, someone with 4 IP has to fire 4 times as many bullets as someone with only 1 IP.
The Monk
Adding a fire rate to weapons, like the maximum rounds a gun can fire in three seconds would be an interesting addition.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 27 2010, 04:43 PM) *
I gets weird when a wired person can fire more bullets by pulling the trigger over and over than the unwired character can just by holding it down in full auto.
nyahnyah.gif

the only time its really spray and pray is when one is doing suppression fire. All the rest are trying to get a set of bullets concentrated on one or more targets, and that takes a bit of control and focus.

sure, high rate weapons are fun at the "range", but rarely are they used that way in the field unless one is talking fixed emplacements.
wind_in_the_stones
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Feb 25 2010, 10:58 AM) *
Yeah, I know. This is looking at it as an option (anti-RAW). The silly thing about RAW is that a 1 IP character moves his full move, while a 4 IP character moves 1/4 during their IP. This leads to the 1IP character being able to charge another character when the 2 IP would only cove half the distance. This is the only inconsistency in the movement rules in SR4A.


What? No. (Sorry, I didn't see this addressed.) If there's a 4-IP character in the combat, then there are four passes, and everybody's movement is quartered, per turn. Every person with the same movement rate moves the same distance per pass, no matter how many passes they have actions in.
pbangarth
QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Feb 27 2010, 09:53 PM) *
What? No. (Sorry, I didn't see this addressed.) If there's a 4-IP character in the combat, then there are four passes, and everybody's movement is quartered, per turn. Every person with the same movement rate moves the same distance per pass, no matter how many passes they have actions in.
Yes, the movement rate is per Combat Turn.
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