It seems to be a popular opinion that mages can do great things with cyber eyes. The only thing in the rules that allows cyber-eyes to be used at all is p.183 ("Physical cyber- or bio- enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets"). At least, this is the only thing I can find. If you know of a better rule, please tell me!

- - -

The argument for using cyber-enhancements seems to be:
1/ Base cybereyes have Capacity; and
2/ You paid for your base cybereyes with Essence; therefore
3/ Anything you stick in the base cybereyes -- whether you pay Essence or Capacity -- is fair game.

This is used to justify thermographic & low-light vision enhancements, which might be fine, but it seems that this argument works just as well for commlinks and ocular drones -- and that can't be right.

- - -

A simpler line of reasoning takes the rule on p.183 at face value. The test for a mage being allowed to use a cyber- or bio-enhancement for targeting would simply be:
- Is it an enhancement to your senses?
and
- Did you pay for it with Essence?

For the base cybereyes, it's obvious:
- Enhancement? [✓]
- Paid Essence? [✓]

For vision enhancements, it's equally obvious:
- Enhancement? [✓]
- Paid Essence? [ ... ]

You can pay Essence for thermographic & low-light vision, so you could pay for those separately, and use your excess Capacity for things that don't involve magic -- like flare compensation, smartlink, retinal duplication, etc. -- which would allow you to use your thermo + low-light for targeting magic. Just like if you'd kept your real eyes, and paid for those two enhancements with Essence.

Note that my interpretation does NOT allow magical targeting through ocular drones -- they can't be paid for with Essence, only Capacity.

Does yours? If so, is that desirable?

Cheers, -- N

The key word here is enhancement. The occular drone is not an enhancement. It is a drone ad as such a remote operated vehicle.

Even cyber eyes your still limited to what is in your theoretical line of site i.e you draw a line between you and your target unobstructed through other objects. Magic doesn't care about the fact that your vision is enhanced as long as the enhancement is provided by you yourself through some manner including implanted capabilities. Personally I don't differentiate between site paid for with essence and site paid for with capacity.

There are two key criteria: one is "enhancement", and the other is "paid for with Essence".

If we must read one strictly, how do you justify not reading the other strictly?

I assume "paid for with essence" as the baseline. Otherwise the argument wouldn't be about cybereyes, would it?

Cybereyes are always paid for with Essence. You can't buy them with Capacity. Therefore, the baseline cybereyes always work fine. (That's just the base cybereye units, though. Any enhancements you want to add on top of the baseline are separate.)

I think that answers your question, but if not, please rephrase!

Cheers -- N

It wasn't really a question. It was an answer.

The real question here is "Does paying for something with capacity count as paying for it with essence?"

If the answer is yes, then thermographic vision in cybereyes works fine for targeting spells. If the answer is no, then you need to get the cyber directly as opposed to as an option for your cybereyes.

Personally I lean towards yes. Capacity is a part of cybereyes, and cybereyes are paid for with essence, thus capacity is paid for with essence and thus anything paid for with capacity is also paid for with essence.

I'm assuming that you're disagreeing with me, but your reasoning is ... not available for my perusal.

Yes, exactly.

Well, nothing is stopping you from getting cybereyes and also paying Essence for your visual enhancements. There are plenty of other uses for your Capacity.

It just means that a mage is strictly better off with his natural eyes than with cybereyes, no matter what enhancements he buys.

IMHO that's not a bad result.

Cheers, -- N

This 'enhancements' are enhancements (= integral parts) of the eyes not of the brain / wetware. And as the eyes are paid with essence, magic works fine with whatever they are upgraded with. Eyes and 'enhancements' are a single unit.

No, I am not disagreeing at at all. I was just specifyin, why occular drones and similar addition to a cybereye, even if paid for with essence wouldn't allow for Spellcastin LOS. You stated the same I did. I merely pointed out that the only relevant aspect in that regard is whether or not it is a vision enhancement.

They've already lost a point of magic from getting 'ware. Are you really going to nitpick over something this miniscule?

I never said you couldn't, and there really aren't any other uses for your eye capacity as a mage. Things like eye laser and such aren't really useful for a mage, and by a 'capacity doesn't count' reading, anything put in the cybereye via essence (like vision enhancement) would stop the character casting spells.



Maybe not so bad, but the mage is already losing a point of magic and paying up to .5 essence for the ability to have cybereyes. I don't think it is unreasonable to have the capacity based upgrades to the eyes work just fine. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason to have cybereyes on a mage.

Using a microdrone to cast spells through, isn't something "miniscule"

Ocular drones can be used to target if and only if they are currently docked in your body. If you get a cybertail and put an ocular drone on the end of it (for whatever reason) you can use it to target spells. The moment you detach the thing and let it roll around its now using a wireless electronic signal to transmit images, which by their very nature, do not transmit the necessary connection to cast spells.

OH REALLY?!?! (sorry, had to do that)

Capacity : [6]

This enhancement only affects one eyeball per purchase but it installs a small spyball drone in the user’s ocular cavity. The sypball functions as a normal cybereye until the user chooses to remove it and control it.

At which point it is a drone, not a cyber eye. Next?

I'm okay with mages feeling no urge to rip out their natural eyes.

- - -

IMHO it's also fine to have baseline cybereyes function -- just the baseline units, not the Capacity enhancements -- because otherwise, blinding a mage would destroy the character utterly. Under my reading, the blinded mage is worse off than he otherwise would have been, but he's still usable.

Cheers, -- N

If you absolutely have to make it idiot-proof... don't worry, we'll make better idiots.

If it costs only capacity = no cans cast with

If it costs capacity OR essence = cans cast with (no matter the payment method)

(spelling was intentional)

I think if you're going after different vision modes, it'd be better to use Contact Lenses or Glasses augmented with the requisite vision modes rather than ding an entire point off your Magic score.

That said, I will sometimes create a character that burns one point of Magic and try to get the most cyberware in that one point as I can.

I've seen pictures of mages in shadowrun that uses binocular to augment the LOS ! so in my mind you can do the same with cybereyes !

It is my opinion, any battle mage that needs to be more than 20 yards from his party, isn't a good battle mage at all.

Whats the purpose of running a game if you can't be by your team? Why are you 500 yards away on the top of that building?

If you wanna do that, just get a sniper rifle with a telescopic scope.

Nifft, one thing to consider is the history of cybereyes and capacity in Shadowrun. In the previous 3 editions, cyber eyes cost 0.2 essence and there was no such thing as capacity. Each of the enhancements had varying essence costs as well. However, when you bought the eyes they could hold 0.5 essence worthof enhancements for free. In other words it all cost essence, but having a full eye replacement gave you a cushion to add a tiny bit more. Then, in the SR3 advanced cyber book (Man & Machine), they began giving capacity to limbs and such to detail what could go where and how much room it took up. When they moved to SR 4 they redid eyes using this same model, something I see as progress. However, historically cyber eyes with eye mods did count as they were all paid for with essence. I believe that the 2nd edition Combat Mage templage had cyber eyes with enhancements for this very reason.

Furthermore, remember that although the enhancements are their own entities, you buy the eyes at the same time as the enhancements in them. If you wish to get other enhancements you must have the eyes you've got removed and replace the whole set. You can't just pop out the eye you have and add in Flare Comp because some jackass blinded you last run. Eyes are small and you order a specific eye with the modifications you want therefore, the enhancements are part of the eye that you pay essence for. I am of the opinion that the they are part of the eye, therefore part of the essence cost, therefore they work.

If you wanted to gripe about eyes being too useful (a fair argument as I will readily admit that they are often on of my staple pieces of ware if I augment a character), then thats something different. I suppose it would be fair to say that eyes, and even ears, should work like the glasses/contacts/goggles do in SR4A; where the availabilty adds up for the entire unit. This could limit people from starting with the typicla Eyes rating 4 with all the main whistles and bells.

This is why previous editions made a distinction between digital and optical magnification for eye enhancements. It was spelled out in the books that for mages, digital would not work, but optical would.

Binoculars can be optical, of course.

A fine opinion.

Could you relate that to the "cybereyes" issue?

Thanks, -- N

And why can't you cast a fireball at that sniper down the street? Oh, wait, you can't see him very well? Maybe you should have gotten yourself some cybereyes with lowlight vision?


---

"Page 2" is all I will say.

Interesting, especially the summed Availability idea.

Cheers, -- N

Here's my take on things.

Your normal eyes are biological optical devices. They let in light. That light is then "detected" by the "sensor" of your retina. The sensor then sends a direct electrical signal through the optic nerve to your brain.

Cybereyes are technological optical devices. They let in light. That light is then detected by the sensors of the cybereye. The sensors then send direct electrical signals through the optic nerve to your brain.

The major difference is in sensitivity. Your normal eye is not capable of detecting low levels of visible light, nor light in the infra-red spectrum, nor can it pick up ultrasound. However, the appropriate type of cybereye can. Even ultrasound, which isn't even a form of actual vision, works when in a cybereye because the specialized ultrasound sensors are able to pick up the information and directly send it down the optic nerve to the brain.

It is this direct neural connection that seems to matter. If you are wearing goggles, glasses, or contacts, such an object does not physically interface with your brain. It displays a digital image within your field of view - in essence it produces an optical illusion. Your eyes have to absorb the light emitted by the device and transmit that data to the brain, creating an intermediary step.

In the case of an optic drone, I'm not entirely sure how I would rule on that. Obviously while in the eye socket it is directly interfacing with the optic nerve and brain, and it operates like any normal cybereye. When removed, it still physically operates as a cybereye, but it sends the information it detects with its sensors back to the "base" of the implant, which is still connected to the optic nerve, via a wireless signal.

I would argue that so long as the signal gets through, there really isn't a physical difference between the digital data detected by the cybereye's sensors passing through direct wiring to the optic nerve, and passing through the air to a receiver which is directly wired to the optic nerve. From a logical point of view, I would have to say optic drones should work just as well for spellcasting when outside of the head, but I'd probably impose a dice pool modifier at the very least. Of course, if the rules make it clear that optic drones operate entirely under drone rules, then I'd go with that instead.

Of course, suddenly it throws spellcasting through all drone types into question. If you have the wireless connections from the drone's sensors feed directly into your optic nerve via cybereyes, how is that any different than the sensors within a cybereye feeding their normal data into your optic nerve?

~Umidori

Ahh, this one again. I really wish we could dig up that old Dev post. I'll paraphrase as best I can.

Basically if you paid in essence you can see through like normal.

The exception is ultrasound and ultrawideband. Those are NOT sending information directly to the nerves. Those systems are taking sound, interpreting them into a digital form, then creating an AR overlay and recreate the image over standard vision as an overlay, and THEN to your optic nerve. These two vision modes also offer "replacement" in which they turn off normal vision all together and you see only via overlay. Therefor, you cannot spell target with these as you are not seeing them, you are seeing an AR overlay of the image (see the descriptions, they are overlays). No matter how realistic it is, and it will be very realistic, you arn't seeing them you are seeing a representation of them and they just happen to be where the representation says they are.

You may as well make the argument that if you hold up a picture of the target in a book to your head in battle and know that the target really is "behind that wall" you can hit them with the spell. Doesn't work.

If you are seeing through AR or VR you cannot spell target. Period. So no drone casting either as those are the only methods of seeing through their eyes unless you hook up a fiberoptic cable to look through (and that puts them on a leash n_n )


*edit -
whoops, I thought this was that other old discussion. A bunch of what I typed doesn't even apply lolz.

No worries. I actually agree with you on the ultrasound, that makes good sense.

~Umidori

Yeah, it definitely does from a balance perspective, but the answer from a game world perspective always seemed very contrived, because I can't imagine that the ultrasound device couldn't send the information to your optic nerves instead of creating an AR overlay. But that really isn't here or there.

Really should have made this as a poll so people could vote, but I don't think anyone here except OP has said they think the capacity enhancements to a cybereye shouldn't allow for targeting of mages.

And actually, the occular drone is a very interesting question. I recall reading something along the lines of 'A mage can't use a camera that he is connected to through the matrix because he didn't pay for it with essence' This seems to create the rather interesting idea that if he had paid for that camera with essence (somehow) he could use it to cast spells. Since an occular drone is paid for with essence (In the transitory way that anything paid for with capacity is paid for with essence) would that then mean that an occular drone could in fact be used to target spells?

I'm guessing that wasn't the intention of the line I'm remembering, as that could make mages stupidly powerful. Anyone else remember this line? I'll look for it, but I'm fairly sure that is what it says. Maybe not what it intends.

That sounds like the crux of it there to me. If you can swap bits of the cybereye out without requiring surgery/reimplantation, no worky with magic. If the eye + enhancements are a single unalterable entity costing essence, then I can buy that.



I think it's getting at the fluff reasoning behind why the rules are as such. Perhaps there's something special about the Awakened nervous system interacting directly with the electromagnetic radiation (whether it's ultraviolet, infrared, or visible spectrum) that allows spell targeting. Neither ultrasound (no source of EM radiation) and radar (not a suitable wavelength?) don't quality, they have to be processed first.

It just doesn't make sense. Cybereyes work either because 1) they cost essence or 2) they are connected directly to the optic nerve.

The second one might be a bit too forgiving, in that you could theoretically pipe any data to the optic nerve via a cybereye or other connection. The first one might be too harsh, in that it leaves murky ground regarding cybereye enhancements.

From a purely physical point of view, with normal eyes photons of light are reflecting off of a target, traveling through the medium of air or water, and then through the cornea, lens, vitrious fluid, and finally being absorbed by the retina and converted into bio-electrical signals. In cybereyes, the same except replace retina with sensors.

From a physical standpoint, there is no real difference. The electrical signals are pretty much entirely the same. Your mind will process them in different ways, but if you want to hold that against technological tools, then cybereyes should NEVER work for magi. Yet, the opposite is also problematic, because if there is no physical difference between the electrical data of cyber and natural eyes, then you should be able to spellcast through drones and anything else that sends signals directly to a neural connection. What a mess!

~Umidori

Guys, if you pay for cybereyes then anything that is stuffed into them is legit for spell targeting. Occular Drones, when used as drones are no longer connected to the mage and therefore not legit. Just think "weapon focus" and you should be good WRT cybereyes counting for spell targeting.

Also as of SR4, cyber Ultrasound systems do NOT count for spell targeting. Also cyber Radar does not count. Trust me, I got yelled at... a LOT... for trying to argue that since you pay for with Essence then it should count. I was told by Synner himself (not directly in a PM, but in the thread) that they do not count.

I also believe that while Ultrasound is available for goggles and the like, it is a headware mod, not eyeware. Radar is a bodyware, not eyeware.

Just have a fiber-optic cable connect your deployed eyeball 'drone' and you can now use it like magegoggles (but with enhancements) to target around corners.

There is also no 'realistic' reason why thermographic sensors, low-light sensors, and radar should not be treated exactly the same. All are receiving an EM emission and converting it to a signal that your brain can use (if implanted) or a display that you can read (if external). Some fool will likely try to note that radar includes an active emitter, but then ignore that a flashlight (or the eye lights) can be used with low-light or thermographic, so that's not really a good argument.

This bugs me, too. Clearly from a game balance perspective, you don't want mages casting spells through walls. But the rules/fluff reasonings on how to prevent that are exceedingly murky.

- From a physics standpoint, normally visible light, infrared, ultraviolet and radar are all the same; electromagnetic radiation. Ultrasound is different.

- The "overlay" explanation is very thin; why doesn't infra-red produce an overlay? Also, Augmentation's ultrawideband radar mentions that it overlays or replaces your vision with a radar map.

- Finally, does it have to be in an eye to function? In the description in the core book, I'm not so sure.



I think the most "clean" solution is just to say that no cryptosense LOS can be achieved. Since no normal metahuman race has ultrasound or radar as a standard sense, those are unavailable for spellcasting.

I'd consider low-light vision to be a "normal" sense, you could argue that though. It does mean only dwarves and trolls get thermographic casting. Yay.

So you're ok with mages casting spells through walls.

Got it.

No, Happy is just saying that there is no 'real world' reason that one should work and the other shouldn't. I agree. Arguments about UWBR not working are flimsy at best as far as fluff is concerned, but I'm totally willing to accept it as game balance.

Maybe the farther away from the visible wavelengths of the EM spectrum, the less handwavium it contains.

And we all know magic needs high levels of handwavium to work. So does most of the SR universe

From the Faq on the SR4 site:

Can I cast a spell through an ocular drone, since I have paid Essence for it, when the drone is not in my body?

Even though a magician has paid Essence for the ocular drone implant (allowing him to cast when seeing with it, just like a cybereye), once the drone has left his body it can no longer be used to target spells.



Pretty cut and dry. Any further discussion on this on is just that.

Except the devs have said that the FAQ is dated and shouldn't be used any more, or so I constantly hear people say.

You gotta latch onto something. My steps of official go:

1. Raw Rules
2. Faq
3. Dev posts on forums. ( I like to wait until things get official, unless things are stupid broken)

I keep hearing that too, about the faq being dated. But nothing has changed regarding these issues in any sourcebooks. Regardless, I am still waiting for something official before I change.

The actual text in the book for the drones states that they no longer act as normal cyber eyes once detached. This is already cut and dry.

And I'm rather certain synner could not justify this reasoning aside from saying 'its magic'

1) Both radar and visual light use photons emitted by some source.
2) At the 'target' those photons are reflected, refracted, and/or absorbed and possibly remitted by the target in some fashion
3) Some of those photons make it back to a sensor of some sort (rear most layer of the retina or radar receiver)
4) From there under go some from of processing (middle to inner most layer of retina or some techno-babble apparatus)
5) From there the signal is transmitted along the optic nerve to the brain.
6) Since both cyber eyes and cyber radar work with photons, and are paid with essence, they should both work.

Unless you can think of a sensible reason which is related to some definable law of reality in SR4 as to why it should not work....

You seem to be mistaking what is 'fair' for what 'should happen'

Except as someone pointed out, you could attach a signal cable to it and then to your eye socket, turning it into a roving set of 'magesight' goggles.

Because the Rules say you can neither use radar, nor ultra sound, nor clairvoiyance(sp?) to target spells.
you need to be able to make direct eye contact even with cyber-eyes to cast spells at stuff.
Technically, even a sheet of paper stops any and all spellcasting at a target the magician can not see through the sheet of paper.
Yes, the paper-bag over the mages head is, effectively, a cheap ass mage mask.

No.
The Mage-Sight uses OPTICAL FIBRE CABLE!
It's STILL USUAL LIGHT/SIGHT more or less.
The Signal-Cable transmits an electrical signal which has been gathered by sensors and filtered through processors and other stuff.

You can already do this with mage sight goggles, it's more than just signal cable, it's a very specific type of cable that the mage sight goggles use which eludes me at the moment. I'd find it easier to just carry the goggles, personally, as the effort of taking the eye out, hooking it up, and then using it as such risks the eye quite a bit...

Fiber-optic. It actually funnels the light from the tip of the cable directly to your eyes.

As far as using the drone go, I'm not sure how large a risk it is. It would depend on the location of its use, and how good your opponents are at seeing an eyeball amidst the havoc of the room exploding around them.

Just because the rules say something does not mean they make sense. There is no 'real world' explanation provided as to why radar would not function. I could B.S. an excuse for the other 2, but radar in specific uses the same medium (photons) and involves the same steps (emission, reflection, processing, optic nerve) as any other useful from of vision.


My argument is radar meets that criteria.


And? Is it the exact same signal your optic nerve would have been processing anyway? Could your body possibly know the difference? As near as I can tell, there is nothing stopping you from sticking a cyber eye on the end of a cyber tail, or tenticle and poking it around a corner and casting. I can't see this as being that different. The light is being seen by something you paid essence for, and then that object is showing it to you.

The only explaination I can see which 'might' work, is you pay essence for the drone dock, and not the drone, but that would not explain why radar does not work, when everything in the rules about how vision can be used for casting spells says it should.