OK so I am reading all these threads about bringing the Attribute back into Hacking. I like the idea of including Logic in Hacking attempts, but Stat + Skill Capped by program just doesn't mesh well with TM's and threading. In another thread it was suggested that having Stat + Skill + Program would be a better option, you'd just have to raise the threshold since you are adding more dice. This option seems to me to be the best answer, but I am not a statistition(sp?) or a expert on the Matrix rules.

So what I am asking here is if the rules were changed to Stat + Skill + Program (where program would be applied just like any other tool in the game) is how badly would it mangle the existing rules. Besides increasing the thresholds, what other rules would be affected? And by actually running the numbers, How much should the thresholds be adjusted.

I like to stay RAW as much as possible so I don't like having to develop a ton of houserules. But if the Matrix rules can be brought back into a similar line of thinking as the rest of the ruleset with just a quick paragraph or two, I would gladly use it.

Please do not let this devolve into an argument about why Logic isn't needed. I want to keep it focused on whether or not this rule would actually work.

Alright, so, the first and easiest comparison is threshold tests that are to be done in one roll. Now, the main change being made is the addition of Logic to the equation. Logic is a stat that naturally ranges from 1 to 6. The average logic is 3. So Joe average is adding 3 dice to their computer related pools by this change in rules. 3 extra dice is 1 extra hit on average. So, one extra hit as a requirement would leave the system utterly unaffected in regards to Joe Average. Even at the top end of 6 logic the character is only going to gain a 1 hit advantage over the old system. Now granted logic can hit double digits if enough effort is put forth, but that seems like it would be the exception rather than the rule.

What I suggest doing is considering making high grade programs (5 and 6) particularly hard to get. If Joe Good Hacker suddenly gains 5 dice from his 5 logic, but then looses 2 dice because he is running a rating 4 program usually instead of a rating 6 program (Which use to be the standard because it was so important to being good with a computer) then he nets out only 3 extra dice, which is in line with the overall increase. They can get more, but it'll be costing them, and I don't see any problem with them getting a bonus if they're going to sacrifice other aspects so much.

If you don't want to mess with programs, consider simpler things (rating 1-3 programs if the program is setting the threshold) to be at +1 so they don't affect Joe Average, and harder things (Rating 4-6 programs) to be at +2 so that a hacker needs a decent logic to keep even, but can still go into super logic if they really want an edge.

As for extended tests, it seems to me that they are designed to be roughly 4 times higher threshold than a one off test, so whatever adjustment you make above, simply multiply it for extended tests like data search. Don't do this for hacking on the fly though, or detecting a hacker hacking on the fly, as those extended tests seem to be intended as simply really hard or two turn non-extended tests.

So, either keep it at +1 across the board, or do +1 for rating 1-3 programs (Where the program sets the threshold) and +2 for rating 4-6 programs. So, just as an example, if you're trying to break into a system with a rating 3 firewall, it would require 4 hits to bypass, and if the hacker has a rating 4 stealth program, it would take 6 hits to notice the hacker getting in. When in cybercombat between two hackers though, none of the +1 or +2 matters, as it is all opposed tests, no thresholds involved.

Those are my thoughts on the subject. If I wasn't clear enough, feel free to ask me to clarify, I know I can ramble and meander in my explanations sometimes.

To be honest, I don't see a need to add Attribute to test. Maybe it's better for Joe Average, but a min-maxed hacker becomes a God of Matrix (now he is just a semi-god...).

maybe because your Matrix God with Logic 1 makes no sense at all : all the skills are Logic based [Cracking & Electronics], but Logic never plays in dice pools.
I'd rather have a Matrix demi-god with Logic 6(9) with that "revised" approach.

I'd also limit the program Rating by Logic (in the dice pool, not in the loading into comlink which already exist, limited by Response). If you're dumb (low Logic score), even the best of programs won't/can't help much, you don't know how to make good use of its high capabilities.
-> The program Rating is limited by Comlink Response to be loaded, and then by user's Logic to be "efficiently used".
An Agent limits the loaded program by it's Rating already (if i'm not mistaken). With the Logic addition to dice pools, it would become Agent.Rating*2 + Program(limited by Agent.Rating)
Something in those lines.

I think the simplest way to use attribute in the test would be just to switch the Program with Skill.

You skill would be limited to the max rating of the program....would make getting the 7 skill rating interesting since you'll have to find or write a level 7 program to use the skill to its max.

If you in addition tie writing programs to the max software skill rating = highest program writable.

Additional concept would be to make other ways...such as the Nexi environment allows you to write a program 3 above what you can normally write. Also count Program options to add to the level to handle them.

For TMs...just add their Resonance to the skill for max complex form usable.

Just some thoughts...other then creating extra die pool.

Neither of those are attributes.

Also, if you start limiting rating instead of hits you will quickly cripple all involved. There is a gaping chasm between being able to use up to three hits and being able to roll up to three hits.

I meant that "revised" hacker could become too powerful in Matrix.
It's because I'm GM and one of my players started with hacker with Logic 6, Hacking 7, Codeslinger (hacking) quality and 5-6 rating programs (she didn't take encephalon just because we used BBB rules only).

One thing you haven't really considered, is my suggested houserule to allow programs to provide a DP bonus as a Teamwork bonus or as a direct substitution for logic. This would still allow for extremely high program ratings for those characters who have ridiculous software pools, but this software wouldn't add directly to the dice pool unless you wanted to ditch your logic stat entirely and run head to head with the automated defenses. Instead, it would add an average DP bonus to a high logic character. So, the generic R6 hack program available for public purchase to any Joe Runner adds an average +2 DP bonus, or can sit in for logic turning Trogbash O'zot's 2 dice for logic into 6 dice for textbook deployment of cutting-edge code. Sort of how you can substitute in an autopicker for lockpicking skill, but in this case, you're dropping the stat instead.

Meanwhile, a bot doesn't know how to subvert the rules of the matrix, so it can only rely on rating + program, thereby disposing of the robohack total skill bypass.

I kinda like that Sithney, it is a rough matrix equivalent to the autopicker or maglock passkey. If you suck with it, it'll do the work for you, and if you're already good with it (in the case of the autopicker) it'll help you out a bit.

For better or worse, it also makes max rating programs less of a necessity for hackers. Jumping from rating 3 to rating 6 generally only gives you one extra die, which is about 1/3rd of a hit on average. Some you would still want maxed out, like stealth, because they do things directly based on their rating. I kinda like that, it means programs are important for getting that little bit of an edge over the other guy, but you aren't made or broken purely by how much cash you can throw down on a ton of programs.

And it still allows for programs to do all the work ala RAW if low logic players want to approach their matrix stuff in the traditional way. I just like the idea of a hacker hacking. He takes modular code and slaps it together to get the perfect tool to do the job rather than just pushing the "start hacking now" button on his R6 program.

Dice pools swell up a little, but mostly in the way that puts the meat over the machine.
Also, I like to keep the matrix very visual and descriptive, which makes it more entertaining for the players who have to wait around for everything to play out. It keeps the story going.

I use the Program + Skill with hits capped by Logic optional rule. It puts a big emphasis on maximizing Logic, and it doesn't completely wreck the TM's threading ability.

Well, since TMs don't usually opt for augmentations, they're less likely to have logic score which over-matche their program rating. In that case, they could just default to using all the dice from their program like normal without logic getting involved, even as a cap. What they miss in terms of a teamwork bonus loss, their sprites gain over agents since, as creatures of intelligence, they have logic scores allowing them to be able to roll ratingx2+ teamwork(rating) dice instead of rating + program only like an Agent. Sprites wreck the set, while TMs start moving back towards actual competition with dedicated hackers.