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The Jake
With CGLs current dramas, will this ever see print? What about the other books?

- J.
hobgoblin
the patient will find out wink.gif
The Jake
Not good enough!

- J.
JM Hardy
As I understand it, the Dawn of the Artifacts series should continue once we get some freelancers caught up on payments. The Almanac is getting the assistance it needs, and it should be back at its fighting weight shortly. There may be some issues involved in paying for the printing--getting a book that pretty to press costs money!--but I was talking to management today about it, and it remains a priority.

Jason H.
Ancient History
...yeah, I'm not as optimistic as Jason is on this one, considering how much of the Sixth World Almanac was written by Jen Harding and myself.
BishopMcQ
The items listed have currently been placed "on hold" in the production schedule until the issues stated by Jason and Bobby can be addressed. As it has been stated before, several freelancers have witheld copyright due to lack of payment and others have terminated their contracts entirely. The Director team is working with Jason to identify a solution and when one is found, I will return the items listed to the production schedule and the sellsheets will be updated with the anticipated release dates.

Until that time, I am unable to comment further on their status.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 23 2010, 04:16 PM) *
...yeah, I'm not as optimistic as Jason is on this one, considering how much of the Sixth World Almanac was written by Jen Harding and myself.


Should I assume from your posting of the Awakened Haunts proposal that the potential SWA might contain such infos? Or does its inclusion in the Look Behind the Madness thread imply the opposite?
rotate.gif
Ancient History
Anything in that draft was well past the expiration date. It would still have been compatible with what I wrote in 6WA (and other places), but since I terminated my contracts with CGL, you won't see my material in that book if CGL publishes it. If CGL tanks before they publish, I might be able to sell the draft to the next company.
The Jake
I wish someone would just release the content for SoLA as a freebie. I mean its not like its going to see print anytime soon (and will be superceded/subsumed by SWA eventually).

- J.
TeaTime
I'm trying to get a handle on what print copies are available.
Is this correct- a few copies of Vice made it past the distributors, and Midnight never made it out of the Warehouse?
Ancient History
It's not like it hasn't been debated before, but the book was never even in layout, and finding some of the authors could be...difficult.
The Jake
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 24 2010, 02:20 AM) *
It's not like it hasn't been debated before, but the book was never even in layout, and finding some of the authors could be...difficult.


Mate, at this point I'd be bloody happy with a raw text file! biggrin.gif

- J.
kjones
QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 23 2010, 08:27 PM) *
Mate, at this point I'd be bloody happy with a raw text file! biggrin.gif

- J.


I know you jest, but any kind of release would cost a non-zero amount of money, so I don't think it could really be justified, especially with SWA in the pipe.
The Jake
QUOTE (kjones @ Mar 24 2010, 02:35 AM) *
I know you jest, but any kind of release would cost a non-zero amount of money, so I don't think it could really be justified, especially with SWA in the pipe.


My comments are tongue in cheek somewhat, but the fact is I am not kidding.

- J.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 23 2010, 07:16 PM) *
...yeah, I'm not as optimistic as Jason is on this one, considering how much of the Sixth World Almanac was written by Jen Harding and myself.


No worries! It's being dealt with!

Jason H.
Ancient History
My nearest translation to that is: there are plans to pay off any freelancers that are withholding copyright, and Jason is either sizing up people to rewrite my sections (and anybody else that terminated, not sure on all that) or girding his loins to write them himself. Which, given the freelancers I know that are left, might be the smart-monkey option...though I wouldn't be the person to ask, since my opinion of Jason's particular familiarity with the current Shadowrun universe and overall writing ability isn't as high as it could be on account of I'm still pissed at him.
BishopMcQ
teaTime-the distributors were contacted last week regarding several of the items which had a cease and desist issued for them. Sales after receiving the C&D would be non-advisable and can be taken as a willful violation of copyright. Those decisions would be left to legal assets.
MJBurrage
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 23 2010, 10:17 PM) *
My nearest translation to that is: there are plans to pay off any freelancers that are withholding copyright, and Jason is either sizing up people to rewrite my sections (and anybody else that terminated, not sure on all that) or girding his loins to write them himself. Which, given the freelancers I know that are left, might be the smart-monkey option...though I wouldn't be the person to ask, since my opinion of Jason's particular familiarity with the current Shadowrun universe and overall writing ability isn't as high as it could be on account of I'm still pissed at him.

Ancient History, since you terminated your contractsórather than just withholding copyrightódoes that mean that even if CGL does find the money, your work would no longer be included in the Sixth World Almanac ?
Entropian
So...Vice was not supposed to be on the shelf?
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Entropian @ Mar 23 2010, 10:24 PM) *
So...Vice was not supposed to be on the shelf?


When it was released, people had not yet withheld their copyright--that happened afterward.

Jason H.
Ancient History
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Mar 24 2010, 03:16 AM) *
Ancient History, since you terminated your contractsórather than just withholding copyrightódoes that mean that even if CGL does find the money, your work would no longer be included in the Sixth World Almanac ?

If published by CGL, that is correct. If CGL closes doors, I can sell the draft to the next company, natch.
Fatum
Well, that's definitely not a reassuring thing to hear. :\

Why do you hate us, Ancient History? :ь
Digital Heroin
Darn, and that gave me a glimmer of hope that I had me a fancy not meant for print book on my shelf. Well, on the little stow space at the head of my rack (read: crappy navy bed).
Stahlseele
Sounds as if 6WA could be the successor/inheritor to SoLA . .
The Jake
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 24 2010, 10:01 AM) *
Sounds as if 6WA could be the successor/inheritor to SoLA . .


That is what I'm afraid of.

- J.
Stahlseele
Ah, it will probably come out on Holostreets too . . yes, i know, that was a cheap shot. I'm feeling cranky right now . .
AngelisStorm
I probably missed it in the big thread, but do we have any idea why certain writers (such as Ancient, apparently) terminated, as opposed to withholding permission and waiting for payment?
Stahlseele
Certainly. Ancient History terminated, because he felt he was treated unfairly after having voiced his opinion on JM Hardy on the private closed freelancers board and somebody snitched on him.
He was then banned from the Freelancer board and this in conjecture with the general situation lead to him calling it quits.
A shame, really.
I'd guess the others who did it did it for similar reasons.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 24 2010, 02:27 AM) *
Mate, at this point I'd be bloody happy with a raw text file!

You might to want to check here and here.
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 24 2010, 02:20 AM) *
It's not like it hasn't been debated before, but the book was never even in layout, and finding some of the authors could be...difficult.

Lately, I felt the urge to enjoy the wonderful tunes of the old game Tyrian. Those were stored in an arcane sound format called Loudness Sound System and while there was a player once, it was DOS only and the person who wrote it had lost the source code. So to include the format into the general Adlib library adplug, people tracked down the original creator of the Loudness Sound System. That reportedly took three years – but now, adplug plays .lds files.
Stahlseele
Behold, the awesome determination of Nerds and Geeks everywhere O.o
Tycho
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 24 2010, 04:29 AM) *
Well, that's definitely not a reassuring thing to hear. :\

Why do you hate us, Ancient History? :ь


The question you should ask yourself is:

How bad are things, if some of the most passioned writers, who love SR, terminate theirs contracts, so that CGL can not publish their drafts?!

All of the Freelancers want the best for SR, nobody of them would like to see SR gone for good.

Nobody would consider withholding copyright lightly, they put work into it and would love to see the universe expand.

Everybody should keep that in mind, before judging the freelancer's intention.

cya
Tycho
Fatum
QUOTE (Tycho @ Mar 24 2010, 12:58 PM) *
Everybody should keep that in mind, before judging the freelancer's intention.


Hence the :ь - course I wasn't serious about the question.
Still, to be fair, the ones to suffer the consequences of the whole DRAMA and the decisions like that are fans as much as the publisher.
raben-aas
QUOTE
Everybody should keep that in mind, before judging the freelancer's intention.


On the other hand, I HAVE seen people making the wrong decisions, ESPECIALLY if passions and/or pride are involved. I'm not saying that this is the case here, but just as you point out that the FL's dedication is a strong argument that things may be even worse at CGL, I have to say that this same dedication is not NECESSARILY a valid point, as people being devoted to any cause tend to be carried away by their passion sometimes.

I.e. some years back we had several quite tragic splits of our ongoing Vampire chronicle, but I doubt that any of these splits was really *necessary* by non-hysterical standards smile.gif

AAS
Sengir
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 24 2010, 12:01 PM) *
Still, to be fair, the ones to suffer the consequences of the whole DRAMA and the decisions like that are fans as much as the publisher.

For us, a part of our hobby suffers. For the Freelancers, their wallet suffers.
Stahlseele
AND their Hobby too.
Fatum
QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 24 2010, 02:55 PM) *
For us, a part of our hobby suffers. For the Freelancers, their wallet suffers.


I was led to believe spiritual well-being of many is more important than financial well-being of few. :\
But bah: their circumstances are their circumstances, their decisions are theirs to make, and I never meant to criticize them, just pointed out that the whole development is mighty depressing.
Prime Mover
I'm as rabid a fanboy as any and having been waiting patiently (ok not so patiently) for some of the great stuff slotted for our enjoyment. I'm curious just what books/future books may have to be canceled rewritten? 6WA, DotA, follow up setting book,toolkit,corp book,magic book hinted at in faq and any others hinted at in recent months? Just how much material would have to be lost/gutted if CGL keeps the license?
Saint Sithney
Yeah, I didn't know it had gone so far.

That is a nasty thing, CGL straight pissing on the talent. What kind of idiot move is that?
I really don't want to believe that such malice can be purposed instead of just a misunderstanding or mistake.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Mar 24 2010, 08:33 AM) *
I'm as rabid a fanboy as any and having been waiting patiently (ok not so patiently) for some of the great stuff slotted for our enjoyment. I'm curious just what books/future books may have to be canceled rewritten? 6WA, DotA, follow up setting book,toolkit,corp book,magic book hinted at in faq and any others hinted at in recent months? Just how much material would have to be lost/gutted if CGL keeps the license?


This is covered in more detail in the "CGL Situation Discussion Thread, pt. 2", specifically in this post.

Jason H.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Mar 24 2010, 02:33 PM) *
I'm as rabid a fanboy as any and having been waiting patiently (ok not so patiently) for some of the great stuff slotted for our enjoyment. I'm curious just what books/future books may have to be canceled rewritten? 6WA, DotA, follow up setting book,toolkit,corp book,magic book hinted at in faq and any others hinted at in recent months? Just how much material would have to be lost/gutted if CGL keeps the license?

As far as I know, there are no outright plans for a book to be canceled (though a certain upcoming adventure following DotA and an e-book tie-in are likely possibilities; they were hideously late and incomplete anyway). It will entail some delay while Jason fishes around for someone to re-write any terminated sections he doesn't feel like excising whole (which for Corp Guide, for example, would mean he's gotta get somebody to re-do Mitsuhama, for the 6WA he has to get somebody to redo the half-dozen or so countries et al. I did, etc.), and even then CGL still has to pony up payments to the freelancers that are simply withholding copyright.

So yeah, it doesn't help that I was writing a good chunk of most of the books-in-line-to-be-printed, and while I may be fooling myself, I think my termination has introduced substantial delay to the already-really-delayed development schedule.

QUOTE
That is a nasty thing, CGL straight pissing on the talent. What kind of idiot move is that?
I really don't want to believe that such malice can be purposed instead of just a misunderstanding or mistake.

I want to be quite clear that deciding to terminate my contracts was entirely my decision. I've had my disagreements with Jason - over his actions and inaction, his view or lack of view of where the gameline is going, and what I consider to be his dishonesty to fans and freelancers. However, aside from one instance where he basically accused me of being greedy, Jason has never descended to name-calling or accusations without warrant. I think he's doing the wrong things for what he thinks are the right reasons, but that's just me.

The lack of payment...yeah, okay, that's pissing on the freelancers, there's no way around that, but that's really a problem at the very top. Jason, as far as I am aware, has always asked for freelancers to be paid.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 24 2010, 03:25 PM) *
I want to be quite clear that deciding to terminate my contracts was entirely my decision.

There are clauses in those contracts allowing for one-sided termination, then?
Ancient History
Either side can terminate the contract at any time in accordance with the terms of the contract itself, yes.
Rotbart van Dainig
Thanks, that clears up some things.

As for the rest concerning 6WA & CG: Outch.
Kumo
Why the Hell all this mess had to break out just before 6WA and CorpFiles? That hurts...
Jhaiisiin
If you're willing to divulge, AH, is there a reason you're willing to share as to why you chose to terminate instead of simply withhold copyright until this all ends, then just discontinue freelancing at that point?

EDIT: Because you've mentioned that you're aware of the delay your terminating can have, and the impact on the line/fans that it is going to have. I don't think you came to the decision lightly, but rather wonder if you considered not terminating for the sake of the line...
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 22 2010, 06:18 PM) *
Okay, so today I was banned from the Shadowrun freelancer forums. The reason being I was telling other freelancers I thought Jason was being dishonest in his statements, and one of them (who shall remain nameless) snitched on me. Truth be told, I haven't been happy with the situation at CGL for quite some time and this comes as a bit of a relief as much as anything. Several weeks ago I sent an e-mail and certified letter to Loren Coleman stating I would withdraw copyrights unless I was paid in full for the books I was owed (a check was cut and mailed to me about a week later). That also means I was paid when several other freelancers were not, so when the extant of CGL's financial troubles started making the freelancer rumor mill, I was less in a position to hold back drafts or remove copyrights than several others - because I'd already been paid for most everything.

So, now that I've been removed for fear of undermining Jason and the company, I'm calling it quits with CGL. I'm done freelancing with them, and I'm going to send them an e-mail tonight terminating my contracts. I will no longer be a Shadowrun freelancer (sniff) but I hope to be again one day under a different company and a different line developer.

Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Kumo @ Mar 24 2010, 03:58 PM) *
Why the Hell all this mess had to break out just before 6WA and CorpFiles? That hurts...

It hurts new players most, specifically – those don't have the library with the Shadows of Series and Corporate Download.

Of course, this happened because CGL dragged their feet not only on paying freelancers, but also on publishing.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 24 2010, 08:33 AM) *
Yeah, I didn't know it had gone so far.

That is a nasty thing, CGL straight pissing on the talent. What kind of idiot move is that?
I really don't want to believe that such malice can be purposed instead of just a misunderstanding or mistake.


And yeah, to be fair, I never really blame the line developer for the problems with paying freelancers. Jason is not the first line developer who has thought that the non-payment problem was wrong, but lacked the power to change it. Peter Taylor--and Rob Boyle before him--often communicated with management on my behalf when payments or contracts were late, both with CGL and FanPro. And they got the same cold shoulder that I did.

That's why I posted earlier that I would like to believe the problem with not paying freelancers would be getting fixed at Catalyst, but I have trouble truly believing that. Emergency payments might go out right now, because CGL needs to get its release schedule back on track. But assuming CGL keeps the license, are a new batch of freelancers writing books a year from now going to get their payments on time? Because I've never seen any evidence to make me believe that they will.
Ancient History
I've been considering it for some time, ever since Jennifer and Adam left. Unlike most of the other freelancers, I was in less of a position to hold out for copyrights, since several weeks ago before Vice was released I had already done that and CGL cut me a check rather than call back the book. That meant that I was relatively paid up where other freelancers were not (and that was why Jason alleged I was greedy, by insisting I be paid CGL apparently decided not to pay other freelancers - I consider this a spurious argument and that CGL has no damn excuse for not paying all of its freelancers on time.)

I haven't been happy with CGL the last several months. I don't approve of a lot of what Jason is doing or trying to do, for a number of reasons - I think in many instances he was working on pushing the books out the door fast with no regard to their quality, because he was always highly resistant to making relatively simple changes on books that, up to the time I left, were still waiting in various stages of editing and layout. Hell, it took seven months just to squeeze a FAQ out, and I have no faith that you'll ever see an errata out with Jason as line developer. I won't go into some of the upcoming plotlines, not because I'm covered under an NDA but because I don't want to spoil it for anybody, but I had some really serious disagreements with Jason (and others) regarding the development of several upcoming books. Disagreements which I believe stem in large part from Jason's lack of understanding of the game, because to the best of my knowledge he hadn't been involved with SR4 at all until he was brought on as line developer.

Okay, that's looking like a screed against Jason, and it isn't meant to be. We had our arguments, it contributed to my unhappiness, but I didn't leave just because Jason and I butted heads on Corp Guide's Game Info section or any meaningless little crap like that.

I don't think anybody can say I haven't poured blood, sweat and tears into SR. I've done books for free (Digital Grimoire) and I've spent more hour than I can count proofing and editing other people's drafts because there were damn few freelancers with the knowledge of the game setting or the desire to do it. I flatter myself to think I was one of the better writers, compared to some of the other freelancers, but whether you think my writing is shit or not I can honestly say I was involved with a majority of the books and wrote significant chunks of many of them - and the thing is, Jason wasn't even aware of the full extant of my contracted work when I left. The line developer wasn't aware of exactly how much I wrote and in what books. If that isn't a sign of the sort of communications problems that exist at Catalyst, I don't know what is.

So, my options were:
a) Do nothing and wait to see if CGL would pay me
b) Withdraw copyrights and wait to see if CGL would pay me
c) Terminate contracts

The first two options are contingent on the idea that CGL will pay - and I don't believe they will at this point. For the sake of the other freelancers, I hope they do eventually shell out, but I have no faith in CGL at this point. Hell, the guy that signed my last several contracts, David Stansel, was one of the guys that resigned.

So, considering I'm tired of being dicked around by Catalyst, I decided for a clean break. As for how much more delay this adds to the development process - well, if CGL never pays the freelancers, the only people really robbed by this process are whoever Jason gets to rewrite my section, since then we'd both be trying to sell different drafts of the same subject to the new company. If CGL does pay, then the only delay is how long it takes to get the new chapters written and laid out and inserted into the books. Which, granted, without Adam is going to be a little harder, and they won't have Jen or I to proofread drafts.

It's a bad situation for everyone. Ghost knows I would have loved to see those books in print. Some of those books have literally been in writing and development since 2008! I had to put up with some true bullshit in...well, let's say Marc Tassin and I don't get along now. Anyway, the point being: it's done. For those fans out there that think I'm being a self-centered prick, I apologize.
JM Hardy
I have zero desire to drag personal disputes out into the forums, but let me just put this up as a matter of factual clarification. I contributed in some way, either writing or editing, to the following SR4 books before I came on as line developer (presented in alphabetical order, except the first one): SR4A, Augmentation, Corporate Enclaves, Dawn of the Artifacts 1 & 3, Feral Cities, Runner Havens, Seattle 2072, Sixth World Almanac, Street Magic, Unwired, Vice. So people may not be aware of my contributions, but that doesn't mean they weren't there.

Jason H.
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