I was looking through SOTA, where they restated that elves and dwarves change in utero, but trolls and orcs, can goblinize.

One of my other SR GM's, not Seasong, strongly disagreed with that concept and lets all metatypes goblinize. There have been occasions where I have been curious about the potential stories of characters who became something else besides a troll or orc.

What would it be like to have been considered overweight and ugly and then change overnight into a lithe fineboned elf? How would that effect the relationships. In the same vein, how would someone like a pro basketball player adjust to being less than half as tall as he was before?

During one of those conversations, I once brought up the much hated SR novel "Shadowboxer" as a very very rare example of a goblinized dwarf. I wasn't sure if it's inclusion was a mistake on the editor's part or as a canon indicator that in very very rare cases, it could happen.

Have any of your GM's given lattitude around goblinization also, or do they work pretty close to the book?

I am my GM, and I use goblinization as it is out of the book... because the very name goblinization specifically refers to the "goblinized" races, turning into something more hideous like a goblin, IE: trolls and orcs. I think the word "Goblinized" is a completely out of place if someone turned onto an elf.

Elves and dwarves are born, orcs and trolls change... in fact IIRC, orcs and trolls hardly ever goblinize anymore, they are born to normal parents, the incidences of goblinization dropped dramatically the longer after the awakening we get. I'm not positive about thqat though... Cannot remember where exactly I read that.

I went oer goblinization in my Metagenics page.

Basically, the humans who goblinize do so at puberty because that's when their genes start making the necessary proteins and hormones and crap. Mainly, the only kids who goblinize nowadays are children of orks and trolls born human and goblinize at puberty.

I treat goblinization the canon way for exactly the reason you addressed, for dwarves at least. For elves, there are overweight elves too. For dwarves, it's pretty absurd to have someone shrink to half their height. Most stuff in SR tends to make more sense than that, that I've noticed at least.

~J

*Twitches spasmodically over the thought of overweight or naturally ugly elves, having been mentally conditioned by too many years of D&D and reading Tolkien*

Also, (iirc) Shadowboxer was declared not cannon.

Hmph. While the movies are damn good, they did make some mistakes... chunky elves being one of them.

The way I run it, Goblinization as written makes alot of sense. Being a elf or dwarf involves certain features that should be there from the start ( mostly relating to bone structure). for trolls and Orcs, they can just keep growing, even if they began at normal human stature. The word "Goblinization" could have just as easily have been "monsterization" considering the size, mass, and generally fierce appearance of Orcs and Trolls. Dwarves and Elves are many things, but they are hardly monstrous to the normal human eye.

right, because doubling your height and mass involves your skeletal structure not a titch.

But some people Goblinized through SURGE right? Presumably these people could Goblinize at any age, which I think is interesting-ish. Some middle aged Joe Schmoe having his life as he knew it ripped away from him and thrown into a life of metahuman hate. <shrug>

indeed.

Has anything been released for what exactly this surge is getting caused by? If I recall correctly (which I might not be,) it started before this whole Year of the Comet thing, whoever the Comet brought about stronger (more) of this phenoman.


Anyways correct everything that's wrong and please clue me in. Thanks bye.

None of you have yet waded through my carefully compiled metagenics page, neatly put together for readability as opposed to book-by-book fact searching, have you?

SURGE was caused by a very sharp mana increase caused by Halley's Comet, either directly or indirectly.

I refute Ancient Histories statement, I know I have personally read the page.

Okay, maybe I'm getting what a surge is wrong. Maybe I was talking about Spike Babies. Which brings me to that point and that point is:

Since almost all (or actually all: Not to greatly read of everything) do spike babies actually exist or are all of the Spike Babies actually just Immortal Elves that were smart enough to find ways to start over again and again with new IDs?

Spike Babies really exist ( ) and were collected by some immortals to give them a larger resource pool in their quest to rule... Oregon.

The first widely known spike babies were the paracritters called Century Ferrets.

Have there ever been any details given as to exactly how Century Ferrets differ from regular old everyday unAwakened ferrets?

Yes, paranormal ANimals of North America.

There are spike baby elves for sure and probably dwarves, but as I understand, the elves at least didn't exibit the typical elven traits (namely the pointy ears) until the mana level rose. Thus explaining why I can still hope and hope that once 2011 rolls around I'll have a set of pointy ears for myself...and if I don't, I'm suing FASA and WizKids

The Abstruse One

Sorry, Spike Baby elves had pointed ears, IEs may or may not have, depending on which novelist you ask.

The IE's vary with time. If they'd had them during the down time, it would have stood out, they have them now, unless Harklequin is currentlly hiding out at a serries of Trek conventions.

I wouldn't put it past him.

Naw, I can see him totally blitzed out of his mind running around a Renaissance Fair with his sword from the Harlequin adventure asking the paper mache dragon how Dark Tooth is doing.

Compared to the 4th World, we live in boring times. An IE would have precious little to entertain himself with, which is how I've always pictured Laughing Man...not taking anything seriously just because he's so friggin' BORED with it all.

The Abstruse One

I've never been a canon monster but in my shadowrun meta's kept happening.

I put the entire world on a cycle magic gradually increases and then gradually decreases. As the magic increases you pass power levels that cause people to meta and new types of meta to come about as the magic got higher and higher.

When I ran my game it was immediately after the second goblinization with some pcs being level 1 metas and some being level 2 metas (the altered priority system I had allowed for purchasing meta 1 or meta 2 with a list creatures of both.)

Metaing took about 1 to 2 weeks depending on the change. It was kind of like puberty growth spurts combined with a very slow version of the Werewolf change in an American Werewolf in London and enormous hunger around the spurts and spasms.

Behind the scenes I had a mental picture of what caused goblinization and why someone would meta as the magic increased. I had it connected to the amount of meta ancestry someone had and what types. It was technically possible for a person to meta into a Troll 1, be there for 20-25 years and then meta into an Elf 2. Though it was also possible for someone to meta straight up the chart elf 1, elf 2, elf 3. It was also for someone to be human for goblinization 1 and 2 but then meta into a sprite for meta 3.

As the metaed they became less and less humanity and more and more "other".
As the magic in the really long cycle had decreased the metas became more and more human and moved into the human worlds until it was all but forgotten.

There were some rumors about certain meta's managing to stay as they were. Vampires lived on the life essences of others and absorbed just enough power to stay immortal but very little else until the magic came back (few survived the entire low magic cycle). Psychics caught glimpses of the magic power. Elves and some other fae took a city to another side dimension to preserve their immortality until the magic returned.

Any thoughts.

One of the reasons why Goblinisation has to happen after birth to remain remotely believable is size.

Quite simply, while a human woman can give birth to an elven or dwarven baby, birthing a fully grown ork baby would be . . . unpleasant, as well as risky, it's flatly inconceivable for a troll fetus to reach maturity inside a human womb. If it somehow did, even Caesarian section might not save the mother's life. A normal birth would not be survivable for either mother or child.

Fully grown? Well, of course that wouldn't work.
As for birthing, are the relative sizes what they are later at birth, or (as I've been assuming) is it just that orks and trolls grow more afterwards?

~J

From what I've understand from discussions with some of the developers, it's very uncommon in 2060 for women to give birth to children outside of their own meta-group. Apparently, while it happened during the turbulent years after the first and second wave of UGE, where a lot of women had to give birth by cesarean section, but now it's stabalised more to the point where meta-humans get born to their own meta-human group.

I also recall a little stat on what the chances were for which kind of child when a child was born from two differing meta-humans.

Yeah, but they have to work at it. They get that +2 to charisma because they're so damn cute. so even a basic charisma of 1, gets the extra 2 points and they are at worst human average.

Dunno; no one I've known who had a cesarean section complained that the experience was particularly unpleasant, at least as compared to the very long labor they'd been in previously.

~J

Given that most babies are born toothless, I'd say that they probably wouldn't have tusks at birth. Probably the same with horns.
As for the cut you describe, yes, that would be horribly unpleasant. However, that's not what a C-Section is.

~J

@Velocity

Your spoiler describes an episiotomy, not a c-section. Huge difference between the two.

say an elf and a troll somehow get together and have a kid. How do GMs or players handle what is going to be born...

right now one of my ork characters is in a serious relation ship with a spirit... dont ask... Just vote him for mayor (Pully-wup or however its spelled) when you see him on the ballot (Robert Paige).

My point is not all kids have the same meta parents. No one in SR ever talks about "Half" beings (half-elfs, half-orks, half-trolls, etc etc) so... is it a 50/50 chance of what they become?

Bob Paige? Have you been playing too much Deus Ex recently?
As for your question, there are rules somewhere (SOTA 2063, I believe).

~J

No. He's actually the ork who got the ork language (Tagaru) from D's will. Which he's trying to translate.

so elf and dwarf is a 50/50 chance?

more like 60/40...favoring the mother's metatype...but it's been a while since I've seen the numbers.

I thought I had read somewhere that it was always the mothers metatype... I could be talking out my ass though.

There are no numbers, there is no "ladder." Where in Ghost's name do ou people find this information? It's not in the books, I should know.

Then you should read a little more carefully - I know the writeup for giants in the SR Comp (vsn 1, at least) definitely mentioned the rate that normal humans were born to giant-metatype mothers.

I'm reasonably certain there was discussion (in the shadowtalk posts, maybe?) in one or more of the other books about which metatypes were more probable given mixed parentage...though no specific percentages were mentioned.

And admittedly, I'm working off half-remembered (if that) text - since I'm not GM'ing a game, it isn't something I've needed to know.

I seriously need to take a break from these baords...I feel like a broken record.

One more time: go. read. the. relevant. page. on. my. site